ON3P SKIS Discussion

Thanks guys. I think I'll probably go with the 181 K108. I suppose the extra width compared to the k98 will give some more stability as well?

Definitely tempted to go K116 due to the overlap issue -the K116 would make the perfect two ski quiver with K98s...and make my other skis obsolete. But 116 just seems a bit over kill for the conditions I'm usually in. I'm mostly a long weekend resort warrior, pretty luck to get in more than 3-5 inches of fresh on most days--and even then half my day is getting in and out of those goods. So I figure the 108's quickness edge to edge will be more useful than the 116's float (and easier on my cranky knees). Plus, for a 116 dedicated pow ski I'm tempted to go billygoats but I can't wrap my mind around their stiffness and smearability...and whether I can get lazy on them once in a while.

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Originally Posted by himavan

...and whether I can get lazy on them once in a while.

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No, they get twitchy and wander. You’re over-thinking the stiffness, they’re not overwhelming in any way. But, they’re very much directional and don’t ride very well switch (RES is not meant for switch riding).

Don’t be intimidated by the BGs. You sound like a competent skier. It’s my favorite ski out of several I own. Also this notion that they don’t have good packed snow manners is horseshit. Once you click with them you could practically ski them any day 2”+ True they’re not icy carvers. [speaking to ‘17- current version ]
Go 184 and thank us later

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Originally Posted by CascadeLuke

Don’t be intimidated by the BGs. You sound like a competent skier. It’s my favorite ski out of several I own. Also this notion that they don’t have good packed snow manners is horseshit. Once you click with them you could practically ski them any day 2”+ True they’re not icy carvers. [speaking to ‘17- current version ]
Go 184 and thank us later

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I'm with you in this camp. Unfortunately the people that speak the loudest are some of the most over analyzing, looking for a reason to be unhappy, ADD motherfuckers around.

This is the best version of the BG to date. It is infinitely better on the groom than any prior versions. But it's still going to turn like the published radius suggests. Long. Unless you pivot it. It simply was not designed for making short turns on harder snow.

191 Billygoat isn't great on hardsnow, just slides. Which is fin.

189 Asym billygoat is a completely different animal.

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Originally Posted by Leavenworth Skier

191 Billygoat isn't great on hardsnow, just slides. Which is fin.

189 Asym billygoat is a completely different animal.

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This is my experience. having been on every generation of BG since it's inception.

Ex 191 BG owner here. I really never understood the lack of carving ability some proclaimed. If the groomers were soft at all they would carve like a mofo. Just had to make GS turns which is what I prefer any way. Could you
“ Tomba” around, fuck no.
So my question is this, is the flex profile different in the tip from the 191 to the 189BG? Did the shape change at all in the tip? Hated how my 191’s plowed and were sluggish in and out of the turn in pure low density pow, maritime pow was different as they floated to the top but if the ski was down in the snow it wanted to push back.

If I haven't mentioned this yet (for the 5th time), my only BG experience was hard snow, and I'd have to agree with the above. They felt like a much narrower, turnier ski than the Bibbys (better for locked-in carving but more to manage).

Anyway, I really liked the BGs on hard snow. They'll keep turning as much as you tell them to whereas the Bibbys turn shapes feel far more preordained.

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All right you guys have convinced me. I'll get the k108s this year and the BGs next year when I have more funds (or am divorced). Life isn't worth living without the perfect 3 ski quiver anyhow!

Actually, fuck it - I'll just get both this winter.

It’s your life but I’d go BG and see if you even need another ski next year. Think about it, you’re adding a centimeter to the waist of an almost identical ski — big whoop. I’d rather add 2cm in a different more soft snow shape and join the club. Membership has its privileges
Edit: you slipped in a rational comment as I was typing

Of course when I finally bite the bullet and buy Billy Goats after drooling over them for years, ON3P drops the wider-radder-BG C&D a few months later.

himavan: So you are keeping the K98 in 181? If so I agree with the others that there's too much overlap with a K108 especially in 181. Get the K116 or BG for new snow and keep the K98 for low tide. I'm 5'10" 170. I have 184 Bibbys (sorta a stiffer K116) and 184 BGs. The BGs are very approachable and not demanding at all IMO. The length is fine, but after a few days I'm thinking the 189 would have been fine too. They will get you back to the lift, but are not what I'd call "fun" for carving packed snow. The Bibbys are super easy to ski and just feel like a wider version of what you're used to. They measure 182 and are fine but feel short to me when speed pics up. At your size (and stated preferences) for a soft condition/pow ski I'd be looking at a 184 BG or 186 K116. Go K116 if you are looking for something that will carve soft packed snow well too. Since you like the 184 DW (actually 182) I guess you could consider the 181 K116, but it's more center mounted and probably more rocker so I think you'd be fine on the 186. If you're not too concerned about high speed stability then the 181 probably offers a bit more maneuverability.

If you'd really rather the K108 as more of a daily driver ski in your quiver, then I'd go 186 to make it more of a soft snow ski and more separation between it and your 181 K98.

Edit: Didn't finish the thread before writing that. More BG info: You can be lazy and smear the BG all you want. I would reiterate that I didn't realy find it that engaging on packed snow, but it's only been a couple days on them. I'm more of a storm chaser so many of my days are new snow and soft and thus the BG will be my most used ski as I search for the goods all day. If my plan was to ski hard all morning and cruise groomers in the afternoon, I'm not sure the BG would be my choice. It is for sure directional too. The K116 might be the more versatile choice for what you describle. Or ski the BG in the morning and grab the K98 at lunch. And again, the K108 would probably make you happy too. It's hard to know for sure without knowing someones style, the type of terrain they like to ski, etc. No wrong answers really.

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Originally Posted by 2FUNKY

Ex 191 BG owner here. I really never understood the lack of carving ability some proclaimed. If the groomers were soft at all they would carve like a mofo. Just had to make GS turns which is what I prefer any way. Could you
“ Tomba” around, fuck no.
So my question is this, is the flex profile different in the tip from the 191 to the 189BG? Did the shape change at all in the tip? Hated how my 191’s plowed and were sluggish in and out of the turn in pure low density pow, maritime pow was different as they floated to the top but if the ski was down in the snow it wanted to push back.

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Yeah. 189 is a bit stiffer. It’s more of an all business ski, IMO. I think it plows less than the 191, but both plow more than the Lhasa.

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Originally Posted by SupreChicken

Yeah. 189 is a bit stiffer. It’s more of an all business ski, IMO. I think it plows less than the 191, but both plow more than the Lhasa.

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Thanks man.

Left train tracks with the supergoats on my run back to the lift this morning. Just let them run and they will carve a trench. Then bury yourself in spray when those tails release sooooo easy. #groomerfaceshots

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Originally Posted by mattig

If I haven't mentioned this yet (for the 5th time), my only BG experience was hard snow, and I'd have to agree with the above. They felt like a much narrower, turnier ski than the Bibbys (better for locked-in carving but more to manage).

Anyway, I really liked the BGs on hard snow. They'll keep turning as much as you tell them to whereas the Bibbys turn shapes feel far more preordained.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

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I'd say that's right on. The pin tail-ish design fo the BG allows you to release the ski a bit better or easily, whereas the Bibby locks you in given it's more traditional sidecut. You do need to ski them differently, or at least I do. Nearly all my skis have some sort of tail so there was a slight adjustment to ski the BG on the hard pack.

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Originally Posted by 2FUNKY

Ex 191 BG owner here. I really never understood the lack of carving ability some proclaimed. If the groomers were soft at all they would carve like a mofo. Just had to make GS turns which is what I prefer any way. Could you
“ Tomba” around, fuck no.
So my question is this, is the flex profile different in the tip from the 191 to the 189BG? Did the shape change at all in the tip? Hated how my 191’s plowed and were sluggish in and out of the turn in pure low density pow, maritime pow was different as they floated to the top but if the ski was down in the snow it wanted to push back.

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Nailed it. If the groomers are soft and you're strong ad competent skier, the BGs will carve trenches. Drive the ski, hard and laugh maniacally as you shred down the groomers at mach looney.

Also, I got the Tomba reference. Well done. And yes; the won't make tiny, jumpy slalom turns. Horses for courses.

And yes, the tip shape did change. Not sure when, but I believe they went with an asymmetrical tip and either at the same time (or not?) added the RES sidecut. I'm sure Phibes can chime in here.

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Originally Posted by himavan

Actually, fuck it - I'll just get both this winter.

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This is the correct answer :yourock:

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Originally Posted by CascadeLuke

It’s your life but I’d go BG and see if you even need another ski next year. Think about it, you’re adding a centimeter to the waist of an almost identical ski — big whoop. I’d rather add 2cm in a different more soft snow shape and join the club. Membership has its privileges
Edit: you slipped in a rational comment as I was typing

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The correct answer to how many skis is always n+1.

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Originally Posted by mtskibum16

Of course when I finally bite the bullet and buy Billy Goats after drooling over them for years, ON3P drops the wider-radder-BG C&D a few months later.

Edit: Didn't finish the thread before writing that. More BG info: You can be lazy and smear the BG all you want. I would reiterate that I didn't really find it that engaging on packed snow, but it's only been a couple days on them. I'm more of a storm chaser so many of my days are new snow and soft and thus the BG will be my most used ski as I search for the goods all day. If my plan was to ski hard all morning and cruise groomers in the afternoon, I'm not sure the BG would be my choice. It is for sure directional too. The K116 might be the more versatile choice for what you describle. Or ski the BG in the morning and grab the K98 at lunch. And again, the K108 would probably make you happy too. It's hard to know for sure without knowing someones style, the type of terrain they like to ski, etc. No wrong answers really.

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Now I want to ski the C&D. Mind you, it's rare that I'll ever need that wide a ski, but damn does it look tasty.

Per your comments on the BG; yes, slidey is appropriate. Otherwise, you really need to raise them up on edge and drive them and only then will they carve and engage the edge. It's pretty rad when you figure out that nuance.

But really, if you're going to slay pow in the morning and rail the groomers in the afternoon, you head back to the truck and swap out for the W98. :D

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Originally Posted by himavan

All right you guys have convinced me. I'll get the k108s this year and the BGs next year when I have more funds (or am divorced). Life isn't worth living without the perfect 3 ski quiver anyhow!

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Get BG's this year. Trust us.

RES was introduced in 11/12 and refined in 12/13.

Asym was like 16/17?

Re. plowing.... this stops when:

0. ski length matches skier weight (size up)
1. speed increases
2. tips aren't driven from shins

These boards don't respond well to a static fwd posture IMO. No offense to the strong guys trying to drive these, but vary the weight balance and see the ski come alive.

There's a lot of tail to work with, so work it!

Shift the weight, load them and pop! fly around... they return energy like nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Norseman

0. ski length matches skier weight (size up)

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Iggy, when will the 211cm Billygoat become available for us TGR hardmen?

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Originally Posted by Norseman

RES was introduced in 11/12 and refined in 12/13.

Asym was like 16/17?

Re. plowing.... this stops when:

0. ski length matches skier weight (size up)
1. speed increases
2. tips aren't driven from shins

These boards don't respond well to a static fwd posture IMO. No offense to the strong guys trying to drive these, but vary the weight balance and see the ski come alive.

There's a lot of tail to work with, so work it!

Shift the weight, load them and pop! fly around... they return energy like nothing else.

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I did, it didn’t. Maybe I’m just sensitive since the ProTest and Lhasa are my standard. Those have zero plow effect. Like i said, didn’t notice it in maritime snow, once the ski sank down it reared its head. Nothing crazy but it is there. I like a frictionless ski. Didn’t really notice it with Super Goats. Stiffer tip and and touch less rocker may help it but doesn’t need changed as I have found my perfect two ski pow ski. Plus I have 30 ish lbs on you. Lots of other people have mentioned it as well, we all can’t be Viking ski gods.

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Originally Posted by Leavenworth Skier

Iggy, when will the 211cm Billygoat become available for us TGR hardmen?

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Betelgeuse, betelgeuse, betelgeuse

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Originally Posted by 2FUNKY

I did, it didn’t. Maybe I’m just sensitive since the ProTest and Lhasa are my standard. Those have zero plow effect. Like i said, didn’t notice it in maritime snow, once the ski sank down it reared its head. Nothing crazy but it is there. I like a frictionless ski. Didn’t really notice it with Super Goats. Stiffer tip and and touch less rocker may help it but doesn’t need changed as I have found my perfect two ski pow ski. Plus I have 30 ish lbs on you. Lots of other people have mentioned it as well, we all can’t be Viking ski gods.

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Yup, the issue was fixed for you with more ski, via SG build.

I used to want more length once in awhile but now I'm a skinny bitch and the 191 is well suited.

We make the same point from 2 sides.

Those having issues with the BG are either mismatched to the size, or not adapting technique. They are an odd shape but once they click, slay on.

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Originally Posted by Bobcat Sig

Now I want to ski the C&D. Mind you, it's rare that I'll ever need that wide a ski, but damn does it look tasty.

Per your comments on the BG; yes, slidey is appropriate. Otherwise, you really need to raise them up on edge and drive them and only then will they carve and engage the edge. It's pretty rad when you figure out that nuance.

But really, if you're going to slay pow in the morning and rail the groomers in the afternoon, you head back to the truck and swap out for the W98. :D

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I would be interested to ski the new C&D too. Back to that n+1 comment you made. I was very happy with the BGs in storm conditions though. Your comment on driving the BG hard on packed snow is somewhat counter to what I've normally heard, especially for the assym models.

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Originally Posted by Norseman

These boards don't respond well to a static fwd posture IMO. No offense to the strong guys trying to drive these, but vary the weight balance and see the ski come alive.

There's a lot of tail to work with, so work it!

Shift the weight, load them and pop! fly around... they return energy like nothing else.

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I look forward to really getting to know these skis. The first non-traditional-shape ski I've had, and I can tell there's a bit of a learning curve. I've mainly just done big lazy carves on short sections of packed to get back to the lift for another powder run. No time really focusing on packed performance. Your comments will probably drive me to take them out on lower snow days though just to mess with them.

What I did notice was just how easily and smoothly they transitioned to on edge to sliding the tails out to change turn shape. I really like the less locked in feeling through crud and bumps. Man super fun ski, can't wait to get back out!

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Originally Posted by himavan

And the BGs have been off my radar – I’m a bit intimidated by their stiff flex/long radius—but I’m intrigued by them as well).

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Originally Posted by NW_SKIER

Get BG's this year. Trust us.

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this!!! like said I wouldn’t be worried about stiffness, I’m freaking 5’5”/130lbs and ski the 179, just sized up from non asym 176. BG punches well above it’s good manners and how easy it is to ski in tracked powder/soft crud, for how good it is in those conditions it should be much more demanding and not as good in untracked/trees!

but it likes to be driven, more rewarding if you drive the tips, but it’s definitely not a hard ski to ski!

what I like about the BG is that you can start your powder day with it and finish it up when it’s all tracked, not a dedicated powder only ski!

and here some BG stoke for you!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...0f374f82e0.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...0710803fa9.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...716acd1bd6.jpg

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Originally Posted by MHSP1497

Controversial question here...

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Who doesn't like a little controversy?
Thanks to everyone who has provided their thoughts. It's interesting to see established Billy fans speaking so highly of the new C&D. Unless a bunch of people start posting convincing Billy > C&D as the dedicated pow ski in a quiver posts I am increasingly leaning towards picking up a C&D to occupy the top spot in my quiver.
I'd still like to hear more C&D vs Protest discussion, as I have skied the Protest and can better apply my own experience to other people's findings.