Anyone have anything they'd like to rant about?

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Originally Posted by TahoeJ

Come in straight, air over the first lip, skip the second berm, ride the third one... which is how they should have built it. Tight back and forth berms are great when they help you get through some tight trees but that's just unnecessary. Berms for berm's sake = no bueno. Pretty picture tho...

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(1) The line connecting the berms requires such speed-squeezing that the berms are purely cosmetic. Like they were made just for a fall leafy day corridor picture, not for actual riding.

(2) That line you suggest as alternative looks good -- but without the tiny scalloped lip of the vestigial berm to buck you.

Think of this: you have a whole mtn like BMA does, and you have X man-hours to use for trails. You can build that crap in the picture, pretending you're a concrete skatepark sculptor, spending useless hours on aesthetic bullshit. Or you can build a larger number of trails that consume vertical faster, but more options from top to bottom.

The berm man-hours expenditure on a trail that is pinched on itself repeatedly, always slow going is a joke. Glad I'm in the audience, and not the person responsible.

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Originally Posted by jm2e

How did we go from this;
"All these mountain bike trails are really hard on the environment. High long term impact because they weren't well thought out."

to this;
"Get me a track hoe and I'll plot this thing out like a toll road, keep it smooth with enough room to pass, make sure the grade is never greater than 11%, you'll be able to see it from a jetliner."

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Yeah no shit. Enviro awareness reasons for "this trail is unsustainable" if not a Flow Trail, but look at what earth-moving and man-hours we can invest if it is a Flow Trail to Grow the Sport!

https://youtu.be/5yAPmlU9C5g

Those berms are near the end. I'd have to try pretty hard not to have fun riding that.

Hah, I hadn't seen that video. The picture from TR did the classic field shrinking, it's a super-long view! So my comments above about how pinched it is? Irrelevant, ignorant and uninformed. Like most things on the internet!

I'd be pretty psyched if that showed up in one of our local trail networks. Unfortunately when we get new "flow" trails it's some pretty poorly executed berms and some dirt mounds without landings.

I don't have a problem with machine built flow trails. Fast, bermy, rolly stuff is a good time. Sure, there's good flow trails and bad flow trails, and even the best flow trails are going to have some spots that don't work as well as they probably could.

But what I do have a problem with is the current mindset that every new trail is automatically going to be a machine built thing with an emphasis on flow. There's probably been 50 miles of (legal) new trail construction in my general vicinity over the last 10 years, and all but maybe 3 of those miles are super smooth, fairly wide machine built stuff. Some of it's pretty fun, but I'd kill for some modern, hand built, raw trail. Yes, hand built trail takes longer and costs way more to build, but it's better.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

<snip> Yes, hand built trail takes longer and costs way more to build, but it's better.

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And the vast majority of people don't care if its better. So we're basically screwed. :D

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Originally Posted by toast2266

I don't have a problem with machine built flow trails. Fast, bermy, rolly stuff is a good time. Sure, there's good flow trails and bad flow trails, and even the best flow trails are going to have some spots that don't work as well as they probably could.

But what I do have a problem with is the current mindset that every new trail is automatically going to be a machine built thing with an emphasis on flow. There's probably been 50 miles of (legal) new trail construction in my general vicinity over the last 10 years, and all but maybe 3 of those miles are super smooth, fairly wide machine built stuff. Some of it's pretty fun, but I'd kill for some modern, hand built, raw trail. Yes, hand built trail takes longer and costs way more to build, but it's better.

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Same thing around. It's great to have so many new trails, but they're all so similar to each other.

My Rant
On Saturday we stopped where the trail makes an awkward right angle turn, then descends a half dozen hand laid steps obviously built by/for hikers. If you aren’t good at the slow hiking trail style sharp turn you can nose into a tombstone boulder on the left, then take a header the rest of the way down. There’s an inside line; goes down rock 4” right of the first few steps, isn’t easy, but definitely not as awkward or as high a chance of getting hurt if you fuck it up. Causes no erosion because it’s on rock, and although it’s still a slow-ish line it certainly rides much more enjoyably (flow?).
Every couple weeks we have to stop and remove the rocks and wood that get piled up to block this inside line (French line?)

Later on the same ride, we encountered no fewer than 4 groups riding UPHILL on the DOWNHILLS. Moderately irritating, except for one group that didn’t make any effort to compromise at all. Last guy even bumped shoulders with me as I stood on the downhill side of the trail with no more room to move over.
/rant

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Originally Posted by jm2e

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Later on the same ride, we encountered no fewer than 4 groups riding UPHILL on the DOWNHILLS.

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On a *directional* DH trail? Tell those wankers to GTFO! :mad:

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Originally Posted by skaredshtles

And the vast majority of people don't care if its better. So we're basically screwed. :D

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Better is subjective. Around these parts, it seems like about 95% of people are insanely fired up for these bullshit trails that they are putting it. Apparently it's what the people want.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

Yes, hand built trail takes longer and costs way more to build, but it's better.

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I don't know who or where it was that a natural hand-built trail took longer & cost more than a machine-built one. Maybe in clay/silica soils where there are no roots/rocks/ruts/terrain folds, and the agenda is a 4-foot-wide BMX track or pump track.

The mini-dozer/bobcat built trails could only cost less if machine cost+operation/upkeep cost is consumed completely by the builder, who would then have to be well-heeled. And still would not have to know anything about trail routing, use of natural terrain, and other things essential to what makes the trail fun to ride independent of bench width & horizon consistency.

Being able to walk terrain and scope out possible routes is one thing. Knowing what routes will build easiest/fastest and hold up longest is separate, and usually depends on knowing the soil and how it drains & degrades. Some clown from elsewhere probably won't know that stuff.

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Originally Posted by dfinn

Better is subjective. Around these parts, it seems like about 95% of people are insanely fired up for these bullshit trails that they are putting it. Apparently it's what the people want.

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If a rider entered MTB riding in the past 5-10 years, he/she started when everyone was praising "flow trails" and "grow the sport."

If a rider started riding 15+ years ago, he might be a little confused as to how he got along without easier/"flowier" trails and stuck with it, nobody cheering him on for "progression" and no inkling of whether his riding or the trails he was on were "growing the sport."

New riders in the Pinkbike Supremacy Era think the pinnacle of trails is Flow. They want the trail to make them feel skilled, accomplished, heroic even.

^^^ Well Creeky, we had a good run, then.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

I don't have a problem with machine built flow trails. Fast, bermy, rolly stuff is a good time. Sure, there's good flow trails and bad flow trails, and even the best flow trails are going to have some spots that don't work as well as they probably could.

But what I do have a problem with is the current mindset that every new trail is automatically going to be a machine built thing with an emphasis on flow. There's probably been 50 miles of (legal) new trail construction in my general vicinity over the last 10 years, and all but maybe 3 of those miles are super smooth, fairly wide machine built stuff. Some of it's pretty fun, but I'd kill for some modern, hand built, raw trail. Yes, hand built trail takes longer and costs way more to build, but it's better.

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This sums up my feelings perfectly. Having some variety is key. Hell, I think some of the most fun trails have a little of both on different sections. Take the Corral trail in South Lake Tahoe ... it has raw, rocky, technical sections on the first half and the lower half is manicured jumps and huge berms... it's really fun getting both on a single descent like that.

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Originally Posted by skaredshtles

On a *directional* DH trail? Tell those wankers to GTFO! :mad:

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Not directional trails. Definitely way better going down. And kind if miserable to climb (I’m assuming)

That’s why are usually only consider it to be a little bit annoying. And I always slow down, move to the side, stop if warranted, AND be as friendly as possible. The guys who were being dicks, must’ve read somewhere that uppers have the right-of-way, and assumed that meant they own the fucking place.

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Originally Posted by creaky fossil

I don't know who or where it was that a natural hand-built trail took longer & cost more than a machine-built one. Maybe in clay/silica soils where there are no roots/rocks/ruts/terrain folds, and the agenda is a 4-foot-wide BMX track or pump track.

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It obviously depends on the type of terrain, soil, etc., but the local builders will usually charge $2-3 / foot for a basic machine built trail in not-too-difficult terrain, whereas they'd charge about twice that (or more) for a hand built trail in the same terrain. I've built some trail with an excavator, and in straightforward terrain, it's actually kinda ridiculous how quickly you can bang out trail.

Of course, if the goal is a decently rocky, rooty, skinny trail, it's somewhere between very difficult and impossible to build that with a machine.

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Originally Posted by jm2e

Not directional trails. Definitely way better going down. And kind if miserable to climb (I’m assuming)

That’s why are usually only consider it to be a little bit annoying. And I always slow down, move to the side, stop if warranted, AND be as friendly as possible. The guys who were being dicks, must’ve read somewhere that uppers have The right way, and assumed that meant the fucking place.

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Ugh. HUGE pet peeve of mine. Whenever I'm climbing a trail and people are coming down with a nice pace, I *always* move off to the side and let them keep going. It sucks to have your descent interrupted. I wish more riders would reciprocate - hikers are usually better about it, which is sad to say.

Someone post a video of one of these feel good machine build flow areas. I need to gauge my radness.

must’ve read somewhere that uppers have The right way

Don't know if you meant right-of-way or right way; for some folks going up the hard way is always the right way.
Basic, good old etiquette states that uphill has the 'priority' unless it is a direction specific trail, amiright?

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Originally Posted by tellybele

Basic, good old etiquette states that uphill has the 'priority' unless it is a direction specific trail, amiright?

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Not really. Common sense would dictate the opposite actually.

Who makes more noise, a climber or a descender? Who can hear better, a climber moving slowly or a descender moving anywhere north of 6mph with some wind in their ears, and their bike certainly making more noise?

Who can stop more quickly, someone going uphill slowly or someone descending faster and on a downhill slope?

IMBA of course decided to put the opposite of common sense out there years ago so people think it's some kind of rule. On year of riding up and down dirt trails with other users should tell you how stupid that is.

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Originally Posted by kidwoo

Not really. Common sense would dictate the opposite actually.

Who makes more noise, a climber or a descender? Who can hear better, a climber moving slowly or a descender moving anywhere north of 6mph with some wind in their ears, and their bike certainly making more noise?

Who can stop more quickly, someone going uphill slowly or someone descending faster and on a downhill slope?

IMBA of course decided to put the opposite of common sense out there years ago so people think it's some kind of rule. On year of riding up and down dirt trails with other users should tell you how stupid that is.

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I dunno, problem is if we change to ROW to downhill riders, downhill riders will be buzzing uphill riders pretty dang bad on trails where you can't get out of the way. People have different bubbles and some are gonna get popped. Just sitting for hours and constantly listening for potential incoming death sounds miserable, too.

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Originally Posted by tellybele

must’ve read somewhere that uppers have The right way

Don't know if you meant right-of-way or right way; for some folks going up the hard way is always the right way.
Basic, good old etiquette states that uphill has the 'priority' unless it is a direction specific trail, amiright?

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I dictated that on my commute. Mom always said something bad would happen if I trolled TGR while driving. Guess she was right!

In my book, this isn’t a fucking highway and we’re not governed by CHiPs. Our rules should come from etiquette and the acknowledgement that we’re all trying to share and have fun. You slow down when you pass others, you say hi/thanks and you say sorry if you came in hot and spooked someone.

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Originally Posted by muted

I dunno, problem is if we change to ROW to downhill riders, downhill riders will be buzzing uphill riders pretty dang bad on trails where you can't get out of the way. People have different bubbles and some are gonna get popped. Just sitting for hours and constantly listening for potential incoming death sounds miserable, too.

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Well I don't really consider any right of way other than "what makes sense here" and "what's actually effective." I sure as fuck don't remember nominating IMBA lord of the woods or anything.

Expecting, and especially demanding that some 180lb bike rider come to a screeching halt when someone who likely heard him coming for the last 30 seconds just holds their ground and insists is kind of stupid.

You can walk out into a crosswalk in front of a speeding semi all day long and be right. You're still gonna get run over though. I do agree, giving more entitlement to what's a growing population of really entitled endurpo-bros probably isn't the best. But I'm not advocating any sort of rule. I'm just pointing out the stupidity of the current suggestion.

Fucking bikers leaving their used CO2 cartridges on the trail, on the bike path and on the road.

Pack it in, pack it out!

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Originally Posted by tellybele

must’ve read somewhere that uppers have The right way

Don't know if you meant right-of-way or right way; for some folks going up the hard way is always the right way.
Basic, good old etiquette states that uphill has the 'priority' unless it is a direction specific trail, amiright?

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Just because you’re right doesn’t mean you’re right, know what I’m saying? Like I said above, if some other rider is descending I’m more than happy to move over and not make them stop. And I always hope for the same I return. We grind up so we can ride down...

Over the last few months I've noticed that more and more people step out of the way for me when I'm descending whether it's other riders or hikers. I've also had hikers be quite a bit more considerate in all situations than they used to be. Unfortunately the same doesn't hold true for equestrians and trail runners. Both of those groups are still as rude as ever.