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Where did you mount the katana to start?Quote:
Originally Posted by bry
I'm only on the 177 but I've skied them from +0.5 to +1.5 and prefer +1.
I know this is sacrelidge with volkl but that feels best to me.
On the blaze 106 I liked +2cm.
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You guys prefer this Volkl line forward of the line?
I’m remounting my M102s and might have to compromise.
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I do... Not sure of others. I use demo bindings and try different mounts regularly.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaijin
Of course my binding and boot choice will affect that... Possibly differently than you.
What's your BSL?
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Short. 296. (25)
I’ve read people mounting various Volkl +1. Seems like if you have choose, forward is more preferred to backward.
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I'm 295 and ended at +1 on the katana.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaijin
±0.5 and I needed more forward pressure to turn. +1.5 and they feel a little less damp from a more neutral stance with less shin pressure. Both still manageable.
Im splitting hairs here but I've played with it a lot and keep coming back to +1cm for me.
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I should add that I'm in Mach1 130 LV and low ramp angle Tyrolia Attack2 bindings... For what that is worth.
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Mounted them on the line, nothing wrong with them there. Just looks like they may have a big sweet spot and thought if I went forward they'd come alive a bit. Sylvans at +1 on his 191s too I believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shorty_J
Yeah they do have a big sweet spot. +1 or 2 sounds ok but I'd be skeptical about ±3.Quote:
Originally Posted by bry
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Haven't skied the katana but did my m102 at +1 after playing around with a demo pair. Personal preference obviously but I'm finding I like most volkls I have skied just a little forward.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaijin
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I love forward mount discussions on the Katana thread. Where were you guys a year ago!
At +1cm you’re still at -10cm on a K108 or M102. I know these skis can both rip wide open spaces. But if you ski really tight and steep and technical terrain and want a forward mount (for more maneuverability) then don’t buy a Katana or M102 IMO.
My M102 was a great ski on early morning groomers. Just clunky when we went off piste into the tight stuff when compared to my E104 (-6.5cm).
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Yeah, too funny right? I agree with you.
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I mounted my M102's on the line. If I could do it all over again, I would mount them +1. If +2 was the only option, I'd do it and not look back.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaijin
I would never mount the M102's behind the recommended line.
Indeed! Agree with everyone else here. My 191 M102s were on the line, and in hindsight I think they would have been better for me (little more maneuverable off piste/lower swing weight) bumped forward, but they're no longer mine. K108s at +1 and very happy there. Also +2 (or more?) curious, cause, the unknown, but not to the point of drilling more holes in this pair.Quote:
Originally Posted by bry
Based on my personal experience on the 184 M102 and K108 both mounted on the line, I assumed that the 191 would ski the same way. To me the 191 K108 skis bigger and feels heavier than the 184 on the line. I have demos on these and need to try going forward. For the 191 M102’s (I got them from VON), the shovel feels really long and I struggle to feel like I’m on top of the skis. Again, have demos on them and need to try going forward of the line. Based on my limited experience, the 191 K108 feels heavier but the 191 M102 feels like more ski.
Really curious how you find the 191 M102 at +1 and +2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandit Man
After selling you my M102's, I bought a pair of 188 Commander 98's to try something a bit lighter and nimbler.
The C98 is a fun ski, but I do miss the comparatively more plush and damp feel of the M102's.
That being said, I expect my next "narrow ski" will likely be in the 100-108 range and have more rocker than both the M102 and C98. I've found that I can carve pretty much any ski as hard as I want to, and given that I don't spend much time on groomers anyway, I'd rather have a smooth, plush, and slightly looser ski for low-tide off-piste mank... something that can still be pushed hard but isn't too heavy (aka not over 2300g's). To my knowledge, the ski I yearn for doesn't exist. Except for maybe the MF108.
I love geeking over mount points. Mounted my 191 M102's at +1.5 from the back line. My justification was after comparing to old blue/orange cochise 193 that I have. These two skis are very comparable in stand up length. The cochise rec line was closer to the +1 on the M2. When I skied the cochise I liked +1 from rec. Basically split the difference and went +1.5 from back line of the M2. Awesome skis as I'm sure K108 are as well.
This is an apt description IME (M102s on the line, K108s plus 1). And agree with VON, if you do get a chance to try both your 191s forward, I would also be interested in the results. My love affair with B97s is well documented, but science.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandit Man
You might want to try Season Eqpt Nexus. long effective edge, no metal but pretty damp and quiet, twinned tip. Not sure how you feel about progressive mount. I tried and didn't click with the ski, but really digging 191 K108. At least my maiden voyage today went really well.Quote:
Originally Posted by VON
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I too felt the Corvus wasn’t a charger for me, especially skiing fast on steep terrain with less than stellar snow. The only place it outperformed my OG Cochises was on a groomer. Definitely in my opinion not in the same league as the M102 or K108.Quote:
Originally Posted by altacoup
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Been channelling my inner Rob Boyd on soft, roughed up Catskinner and Jersey groomers all week, on 191s and 189 B97s. Think, tourists as moving gates. Rode the lift with a gentleman yesterday who said B97s are like 'riding the rails.' He's not wrong.
The 191 K108s edge hold and suspension is so good too though. A little easier to safety slarve than B97s, with the expected reduction in edge hold in comparison, but on soft groom, lean em over and they'll rail over anything with ease. And in 2D, wax not required as you can live on your edges. As things trend refrozen, B97s stay smoother longer, but K108s arguably more versatile as they smash chop, charge pow, and can be pivoted underfoot better than a ski like this should. And for this class, they're not even that demanding due to the sidecut and rocker profile. Volkl got these right for my 1980s inspired preferences. New school chargers rule.
Appreciated the rest of your post as well, but quoting your reference to a legend just in case anyone missed it. Back to skis that smash stuff....Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvan
Sorry missed this; '89 was a good year!Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed
Hey LT,Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Thomas
Apologies for the delay, been a slow start up here. I have a few days on Squads, from refrozen to soft groomers, 40 degree angle and below west coast chop and pow, and some alpine bony steeps, plus maybe 20 days on 191 K108s that have seen everything WB has to offer.
Me: 6'2, 195#, 41 y/o, WB home resort, grew up w/ instruction but never raced. Own and love: Metal lam skis (189 B97, 191 K108, 188 CMD 118, 193 Confession), Squads. Like: The rest. Disliked: R10s (just not for me). Generally prefer mounts @ -10+-.
191 K108 (190 straight pull, 2455g/ski, +1(-10.5), 21mR underfoot) vs Squad (193.3 straight pull, 2435g/ski, -2(-8.25), 25mR)
191 K108: See above posts, but if I was to categorize these, I would say they're a modern take on a traditional metal lam charger. Traditional mount, minimally tapered, heavy, stiff and slightly round flex (not CMD 118 stiff, but close), offset by an approachable and pivoty long and low rocker profile, and a tight sidecut. These are the most versatile ski I own, and would be my pick for a quiver of 1 WB resort ski. You can live on the shovels and tails, in 2 and 3D, and they rail better than all my skis save B97s, be it groom or turning bowls into GS courses, shallow or deep. They also handle steeps well, and smash chop as good as CMD 118s, and better than the rest of my skis. Only real drawbacks are Squads and B97s are smoother as conditions trend refrozen, and I pressure my boot anytime I'm going straight to keep the sidecut in check. Anytime I grab these, I almost always have the right tool.
Squad: If I was to categorize these, I'd say they're a burly freeride ski, or a playful charger. They're also minimally tapered, similarly heavy, have a longer running length, and are pretty cambered in comparison, but the non-metal lam, fiberglass and rubber layup, produces a surprisingly soft and round flex (in length and torsion), that allows me to bend em into any shape I want, and that also makes em feel like magic carpets. Completely different construction, but re flex, think a smoother/quieter R11 w/o the hinge points and more top end (I also thought burlier 2007 foam cored Scratch BC in flex alone, but it's been a while). The flip side to the flex is that I can't drive the shovels as hard as I want, or hammer the tails, or put another way, they need to be skied with a little more balance. With that said, the -2(-8.25) line has worked well for me as the 193ish TL means there's still plenty of ski out front (thanks Bry). I had em out in some lower angle knee deep, west coast pow and chop, and while I had to ski em slightly more centered than K108s, with some speed they planed up great, and handled our chop without issue, if not as well as CMD118s/K108s. On edge (groomers, etc), they're not nearly as energetic as B97s/K108s, but they have good edge hold, produce some energy, and will let you make shapes back to the lift (see above about shovels/tails). In that regard, they kinda remind me of a more progressively mounted Cochise 106 that can't be driven quite as hard. The biggest plus for these is how short they ski; I skied some early season bony steeps today (Sylvain and Bushrat), and the approachable flex makes em super easy for a ski this big. I would put the 'length' between 192 R11s and 191 K108s/189 B97s/193 Confessions, in that order. I also think this will be the ski I grab if I'm going to ski something for the first time; the Saudan choke right now is about a ski length wide, and icy AF, and the ability to bend these meant it was super comfy. The straighter shape also makes em track a little more relaxed, and the swing weight is lower comparatively, and more balanced in the air. Was mostly safety skiing in the alpine cause its thin, but I have pushed em hard mid-mountain and don't think I'll find the top end. I'd also take these below treeline as the softer flexing tail is super easy to smear. If K108s are my pick (based on what I've skied) for quiver of 1, I would happily DD these, as long as I got to keep B97s for firm race-y days too. Oh, and yellow bases need wax.
Only other thing I'd mention, and this is conjecture, but I feel like a bigger/stronger human than I, with room to run, would likely find the top end of the Squad b4 the 191 K108. The K108 takes some aggression/speed to get the flex working, where the Squad is smooth from go.
Both great skis, and room for both for just the right level of addict. Some shape and profile pics below. Hope this helps, and would love to hear other Mag's thoughts on these two skis, to help round out the comparison for ya. Cheers LT.
Edit to add: After a few alpine days on Squads, decided to sell em. Cool ski, I just prefer a stiffer flexing ski for my 195#, traditional preferences and room to run.
Shapes
Attachment 438051
Profiles
Attachment 438052
De-cambered (outside of straps signify contact points)
Attachment 438053
Sylvan,
You the man. This was worth the wait as it's all useful information that I can relate to and put to use. Despite the fact that I'm a fair bit older it sounds like our skier profiles and ski tastes across the board are strikingly similar. Right now I'm sort of on the hunt for a ski in the slot currently occupied by the OG Bibby 190, this sounds like a top candidate. Now I just need to find a pair to try
Sylvan. Awesome review. If I was skiing somewhere with more room to let them run I’d be all over those K108s. My V-Werks Katanas just make a whole lot more sense in the tight trees.
Good to hear! Welcome to test drive mine next time you're north of the border should you still be on the hunt (317 BSL/P15 adjustment range). Excited to spend more time on all of em. Cheers man!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Thomas
Thanks! Yah, those KVWs sound like a great choice for your neck of the province, which, admittedly, is still on the list, but hopefully not for long. Good winter!Quote:
Originally Posted by kootenayskier