Home Remodel: Do, Don'ts, Advice

With some trepidation, I am bumping this thread for countertop advice, as our kitchen project is about to start.

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Originally Posted by ski-wpk

Definitely not high end (the project I referenced). We did simple Black Pearl granite for a big kitchen. $2500 installed with Stone City in Denver. They were a bit sketchy but price was right and they fabbed and installed in a couple days.

We've also used Moros Fabrication in Boulder. Big selection of remnants that can save you big over picking slabs at the stone warehouses off I70 near the airport.

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My wife got a quote from Moros that was insanely high. I used a quote estimator on HD's site, and with $67/sqft granite came out with a price of about $4337. Moros was ~$3k higher, holy shit (but don't know the stone my wife picked).

So, question: how does the countertop business work? Do you hire someone and then go shop for stone where they tell you? Do you shop at stone warehouses, and then have them install? I guess I am not sure what the best way to go about this is. We do care about price, but also about the actual stone that we use.

And if you have specific places in Denver metro we should go check out, post em up!

Typically, the stone warehouses do not give pricing to homeowners. You work with a fab shop, and they provide pricing, even on remnants. Sometimes the fab shop has their own remnants that they can sell you.

I'm sure CO folks will chime in with sources to work with.

When I got bids for my kitchen counters about 5 or 6 years ago I went to 3 different places in the Santa Fe and I-25 area. 2 had their own slabs and 1 sent me to a yard where they buy their material from. All 3 bids were very close together (for similar stone). Like within 5%. So we ended up going with Al at Bellagio Stone http://www.bellagiostone.com/ . Al was easy to do biz with and the crew was clean, polite, and totally on-schedule.

How big is the counter ? In Portland we have quite a few Chinese granite places where they sell prefab pieces CHEAP. I don't know the scope or type of kitchen you are doing but if you're budget conscious try looking around for the asian offshore products. It won't be Italian marble but it'll be as good as many chain store products if the configuration works.



http://mgstonellc.com/

http://www.bouldergranite.com/

We have two big pieces
105 x 24
110 x 51

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Originally Posted by Danno

With some trepidation, I am bumping this thread for countertop advice, as our kitchen project is about to start.



My wife got a quote from Moros that was insanely high. I used a quote estimator on HD's site, and with $67/sqft granite came out with a price of about $4337. Moros was ~$3k higher, holy shit (but don't know the stone my wife picked).

So, question: how does the countertop business work? Do you hire someone and then go shop for stone where they tell you? Do you shop at stone warehouses, and then have them install? I guess I am not sure what the best way to go about this is. We do care about price, but also about the actual stone that we use.

And if you have specific places in Denver metro we should go check out, post em up!

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Danno, call the guy I emailed you earlier this year. He is solid. IIRC you can go to the warehouse with him and pick out the slabs you want.

He's on my list! I googled his name and came up with a shop, which oddly enough I think I biked past the other day (it's on Jason St, and the South Platte River Trail detours off the path and onto Jason St for a while).

There are a lot of stone places down that way (Cruiser's guy is nearby too). So I was planning on heading there sometime, just trying to understand the business first.

Well I will be watching this thread, as we are in the same boat. Need new counter tops after I refinished all the cabinets. Found a bunch of Granite we like but I have read Quartz is more durable / less maintenance issues. So which way is the best to go???

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Originally Posted by liv2ski

Well I will be watching this thread, as we are in the same boat. Need new counter tops after I refinished all the cabinets. Found a bunch of Granite we like but I have read Quartz is more durable / less maintenance issues. So which way is the best to go???

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Quartz is great too, no caveats for that material as long as you're ok with it looking a little more uniform or synthetic. Some really nice looks. I'd advise staying away from the fake stone look pieces if you have a lot of square footage because you may end up with a repeat piece. The mfr's are getting better but they aren't perfect yet.

For another natural stone, look at quartzite. Same type of durability and suitability for kitchen use as granite. Lots of nice colors/patterns.

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Originally Posted by acinpdx

Quartz is great too, no caveats for that material as long as you're ok with it looking a little more uniform or synthetic. Some really nice looks. I'd advise staying away from the fake stone look pieces if you have a lot of square footage because you may end up with a repeat piece. The mfr's are getting better but they aren't perfect yet.

For another natural stone, look at quartzite. Same type of durability and suitability for kitchen use as granite. Lots of nice colors/patterns.

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Quartz is a fake stone, manufactured from ground composite. Quartzite is a natural stone like granite - id go with the quartzite.

FYI, if ypu get an insanely high quote, it usually means they're too busy to do your job, unless you really make it worth their while. This goes for most trade jobs.

Danno, I'll let you now too shop for shop in the Front Range later. Got to go to work. Can somebody search? I swear I already answered this question before.

Compare porosity of each stone in case you haven't considered that, per acinpdx.

my favorite thread!

just been staring at the computer and paper work for three plus hours do not know how anyone can sit at a desk all day long, I feel for you, I'm about to rip my eyes out and freak out

my take on solid surface counter tops

slabs start at 1100 - 1400 for level one material they skyrocket from there
fabrication labor is around $65.00 a sq ft for a quality shop
undermount sink cuts run at least $200.00
backsplash is extra

based on the dimensions you provided you can get that all on one slab with a good cutter, but the slab has to be the largest you can find, if not you'll be buying 2 slabs or 1.5 depending on how nice the fabricator is to you and what you pick that he can resell

So I'd ballpark your counter top at $5,300.00 throw your old lady in the slab yard and she'll get all excited and want the pretty piece of material and you just added 2k to the project

anyone who will cut and install for 45 sq ft is scary

I'm in the middle of a large interior remodel right now. Kitchen, entry way, and living room. My first advise is to find an interior designer that has some expertise in the look you are going for. Modern, contemporary, etc. I had some ideas, but the average person will never pull it all together in a professional way. After a little back and forth with her, sharing pictures of what I like, she came back with some concepts. 80% done now and the transformation is incredible. Love what I have going so far. Well worth the fees to get a professional interior designer working with you.

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Originally Posted by acinpdx

Typically, the stone warehouses do not give pricing to homeowners. You work with a fab shop, and they provide pricing, even on remnants. Sometimes the fab shop has their own remnants that they can sell you.

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hrm. maybe it's a regional thing but here in the Northeast you can certainly get prices for slabs, I've been though this process several times, most recently within the past year.

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Originally Posted by iceman

hrm. maybe it's a regional thing but here in the Northeast you can certainly get prices for slabs, I've been though this process several times, most recently within the past year.

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You priced/bought a raw slab? And then got it fabbed somewhere else? And priced that independently?

Or you got prices through a business that provided the complete countertop?

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Originally Posted by fastfred

my favorite thread!

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Me too, most useful thread on here.

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Originally Posted by Sluff

I'm in the middle of ....

My first advise is to find an interior designer that has some expertise in the look you are going for. Modern, contemporary, etc. I had some ideas, but the average person will never pull it all together in a professional way. After a little back and forth with her, sharing pictures of what I like, she came back with some concepts. 80% done now and the transformation is incredible. Love what I have going so far. Well worth the fees to get a professional interior designer working with you.

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Mostly agree. With the clarification a good architect can do more in the overall scheme than any interior designer can, IMO.

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Originally Posted by acinpdx

You priced/bought a raw slab? And then got it fabbed somewhere else? And priced that independently?

Or you got prices through a business that provided the complete countertop?

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Bought the stone from a stone company and got it fabbed by stone fabricator who went to the stone company to pick up the slabs we had tagged. There was a GC in the mix so there was a markup but we got the quotes and saw the invoices.

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Originally Posted by iceman

Bought the stone from a stone company and got it fabbed by stone fabricator who went to the stone company to pick up the slabs we had tagged. There was a GC in the mix so there was a markup but we got the quotes and saw the invoices.

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the two warehouses we visited today both made it clear that they wouldn't be giving us prices, even though we told them we didn't have a fabricator (we could pick our stuff but had to buy it through a fabricator). as an aside, holy shit was it cool to walk through the warehouses. Some crazy looking stuff.

Foggy, I did do a quick search before posting, but I'll look again.

And fastfred, fucking a. The Bellagio place that Cruiser recommended priced us at almost exactly that. Home Depot's online estimator came in a little lower. Nice work.

We are facing the slab issue. The largest slabs seem to be just an inch or two too short, and now we're wondering if we should change our cabinet design (if that's even possible, may not be) to shorten the width by 3 inches. Hmmm. Of course, if we just get under the wire for one slab, that means no stone backsplash, which my wife wants. Hmmm again.

Sluff, we've done most of it on our own. But my wife has a designer in her back pocket that gives us info and my wife will hire on an hourly consulting basis for an hour or two, to help with certain color and design choices. I think we do well on our own, but the designed has helped in some places and it's good to get confirmation on many of our decisions.

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

So Danno, get the graph paper out. Draw up the kitchen with the wall removed and the appliances where you want them. Make your preliminary decisions from most expensive and permanent and expensive backwards. This means your cabinets and counter top will drive all your other choices. Go to some stone warehouses (Arizona, DalTile, Stone Collection etc.). Get me a graph paper drawing of the kitchen and some stone choices and I'll get my granite guy to estimate. Make an appointment with a designer at a cabinet shop (home depot or lowes will do at this point although I think there cabinets and design services suck). Get to the point where you can figure out what you like and ball park the price of the kitchen materials. If you ain't willing to do this, you need a designer or a design/build contractor. You will pay a shit ton in pre-construction if you have no vision.

Start looking into permitting. Did you know that the EPA requires environmental tests if more than 32sq. ft. of floor or wall are disturbed. The fines for contractors are stupid.

Oh...could you guys give me the names of the custom cabinet shops that compete price wise with semi-custom production cabinets? I could give those shops a ton of business.
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Found your earlier post. We went to two warehouses today, Stone Collection and Granite Imports. Saw some level 1-3 granites that we liked. We have cabinet plans, PM me your email and I'll send them to you (and you can see if I got a good deal :)).

Here goes...Bellagio & Home Depot means you are doing to wrong. There are so many hands in the stone game it is like dealing with the mob. You've got subcontract installers & templators, big box reatairs, design shops, stone yards, wholesalers, fab shops that have their own inventory, pre-fab granite, etc. etc. etc. Here is how I do it, for myself & my clients:

a. go to Arizona Tile over by I-70 and Havana. They have the most customer friendly showroom. They will give you all the price levels. All the slabs are graded 1-6 (or something). You probably want to be in the 2 to 3 range. 1 is shit like Santa Cecilia or Uba Tuba. You're options are endless what with all the composites and leathered finishes and such.

b. find a couple independent fabricators ideally through a direct referral. Provide them with a drawing on graph paper of your proposed design. Get them to estimate the job based a couple of slabs you are considering. They should have other stone yards to suggest. Most of the slabs are coming from wholesalers like Arizona, Dal-Tale, the Stone Collection, etc. You tag the slab and the fabricator gets it delivered so it doesn't really matter where you get your slab. In Denver, as a retail customer at a stone yard, you will not be able to get the price. Your GC might and you might get the price from a retail reseller but that's a different deal. Compare estimates and make a choice.

Yeah just to follow up, we got our stone from one of the biggest wholesalers in New England, not a retailer. But they are "to the trade" so it was because we had a GC that we were able to see the quotes, as they provided them to him. However they did have the price levels marked as foggy described.

But Danno, your "in the pocket" designer might be able to fill that role for you in the process. The different wholesealers play around with the product names to try to keep you from cross-shopping, similar to what goes on with mattresses, but if you go look at the stuff you can mostly tell what's what.

Home Depot and Bellagio were just starting points. FTR, though, the Bellagio guy didn't represent himself as a real stoneyard (though he did have a bunch of stone). He gave us a list of warehouses to check out for him to get and do the fabrication. I am going to contact two independent fabricators (adrenelated's guy and a name from the interior designer I mentioned earlier). But It's always good to have more names if anyone's got one.

Quick question for the collective. We are well into our home remodel which is going well. We have decided for the main level of the house to use a combination of radiant floor heat and forced air. Since this is an older house that was formerly a carriage house, the walls are just sheetrock against brick with no insulation. It has the potential to get cold, but we ultimately think the two stage heat will over come this without needing to tear out the sheetrock and build out some space to insulate the walls. Bigger worry than the cold is that if we start tearing out the walls to build out for insulation we will end up snowballing into new windows, etc., which we would prefer not to do.