If only there was something we could do...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skiJ

with regard to law enforcement, I believe current training Greatly emphasized officer safety, and 'securing the scene' and when faced with weaponry, Waiting for reinforcements And superior firepower - no heroics

---

Not. For. Active. Shooters.

This has been mentioned repeatedly. The response for an active shooter is IMMEDIATELY ATTACK: run towards the sounds of gunfire and eliminate the threat. This change came in 1999 after Columbine where "secure the scene and wait" got a ton of kids hurt and killed while the killers kept killing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The AD

Agreed. We don't really know the Australia solution won't scale to the U.S.'s parameters. It's a bit of a cop out to say it won't work here.

---

I'm not saying it won't work, but it's naive to deny that scale does not create serious challenges with implementation. Let's start with the low-hanging fruit first--21+ to purchase, licensing, registration, etc. Going straight to mass confiscation seems likely to generate serious blowback and go nowhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Buzzworthy

Cmon man! Bullshit. He is not that powerful. Y’all need to stop the thinking that he is.
The gun nuts are not going to listen to anyone. Nobody gets between them and their guns.

---

2019 bump stock ban suggests otherwise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ted Striker

Because nobody with any real power wants to.

---

That's putting the heelpiece on the front of the ski.

The Gun Issue has been developed into yet another powerful wedge mechanism that drives not only division, but contributions from passionate minority factions.

So count it among abortion, race and religion as a way for manipulative pseudopoliticians to get power.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dantheman

I'm not saying it won't work, but it's naive to deny that scale does not create serious challenges with implementation. Let's start with the low-hanging fruit first--21+ to purchase, licensing, registration, etc. Going straight to mass confiscation seems likely to generate serious blowback and go nowhere.

---

Totally agree. I don't know if Australians are culturally similar to citizens of the US. Meaning, was there the same obsession with guns that a significant portion of the US population has?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by liv2ski

Yup, as is my case. I have guns for the eventual collapse of Murican society, but I would willing turn them in if it was National policy

---

Same. Until someone stops the wholesale slaughter of people in downtown St Louis don’t ask me to go help people with their medicare and medicaid without worrying about my safety.

I’ve actually stopped going down there and helping the low income beneficiaries. I didn’t like feeling like I needed a gun 1500 appointments and I saw enough shit to either quit, or put a gun in my bag. So I quit and sold most of what I had.

I would really, really like to feel like everyone didn’t have a fucking gun in their car. But they do.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Dantheman, how does that minor action suggest he would do something drastic? Read Woodsy's post above or the heritage foundation report:

https://www.heritage.org/firearms/co...t-trump-so-far

the Question I do have is how was the school Safety Officer not in a position to defend the school - That is that officer's job.

Not to pursue an assailant in the neighborhood - secure and defend the school ;

when the call came that drew the school safety officer away, that school should have gone to LOCK-DOWN until the threat was gone. !!!


f* tj

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dantheman

it's naive to deny that scale does not create serious challenges with implementation. Let's start with the low-hanging fruit first--21+ to purchase, licensing, registration, etc. Going straight to mass confiscation seems likely to generate serious blowback and go nowhere..

---

Low hanging fruit. Interesting terminology for something that can't seem to get done.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Summit

I actually think Trump would suggest something like that. He is not really pro gun.

I do not think that even the #forevertrumpers would jump onboard surrendering their guns just because their orange god commanded it.

---

They would deny he said it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dantheman

I'm not saying it won't work, but it's naive to deny that scale does not create serious challenges with implementation. Let's start with the low-hanging fruit first--21+ to purchase, licensing, registration, etc. Going straight to mass confiscation seems likely to generate serious blowback and go nowhere.



2019 bump stock ban suggests otherwise.

---

Really reaching there Dan

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Summit

I am a huge mental health advocate. It is under funded in our society. Improving this priority would reduce gun deaths significantly, but mostly in terms of suicidality. Mental health is horrifically misunderstood in terms of gun crime.

I don't think that mental health is the issue in this specific circumstance, but we don't know and may never know in this specific incident.

Medicalizing criminality is a horrific mistake.

There exists diagnostic boxes into which we can put the fractional (but socially significant) percentage of humanity that will be inevitably and incorrigibly violent, but it isn't because they are ill in the same way that someone with PTSD or depression or ADD or OCD are ill (and each of these is very different).

Stigma is a problem, because though certain affective (eg schizophrenia) and mood (eg bipolar) disorders seem to make up roughly 10% of murderers when looking at older datasets (a disproportionate amount vs the general population), actually very few people who have those disorders commit murder. This particular phenomenon of statistics is hard to parse for the public/policy makers and hard to address for clinicians. To say this differently, someone who is schizophrenic might have 20x the chance of being a murderer vs average, thus explaining overrepresentation among murderers, but the chance that someone with schizophrenia commits murder in their life is <0.1%!!!

When you are talking about diagnosis that actually do present a significant risk of murder, these people don't need to pop a pill. Substance abuse disorders correlate with crime, but that is a highly complex topic and is often comorbid with other issues. Other people have certain types of personality disorders such as antisocial or borderline often only recognized only after the fact, and the mechanisms vary too. The few who are violently psychotic or impassionately enraged tend to target those personally close to them (eg DV) and act on different impulses than someone who is amoral like an Antisocial. Antisocials are basically untreatable, amoral, and though there is a distinction between that personality disorder and psychopathy, the overlap is nearly complete. These people almost always end up in the criminal justice system and usually prison, but sometimes they kill (many) before landing there. Flagging them earlier is the only intervention I can think of, and fraught. Failure to intervene despite spotting the problem is another issue (eg the Aurora theater shooter).

"Support Mental Health" and "Mental Health Awareness" tropes, whether noble or as an excuse, probably have little overlap on functional interventions here.

---

American Psychiatric Association Article: Mental Illness Too Often Wrongly Associated With Gun Violence

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dantheman

I'm not saying it won't work, but it's naive to deny that scale does not create serious challenges with implementation. Let's start with the low-hanging fruit first--21+ to purchase, licensing, registration, etc. Going straight to mass confiscation seems likely to generate serious blowback and go nowhere.

---

Grudgingly I'll admit that you're probably correct.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcphee

Fuck the gun owning public. They’re the minority and the majority of the public wants to severely restrict firearm access. Again, FUCK THE GUN OWNING PUBLIC. Your hobby and cosplay and fever dreams of the government/bogeyman coming to get you does not override the rational fear that unarmed citizens feel on a daily basis.

---

3% of firearms are "assault weapons". Get off your soapbox.

You aren't even focused on the correct firearm to change gun deaths in any meaningful way. Your lack of knowledge on the subject is dreadful.

It's pretty apparent most of you don't know the first thing about gun laws or gun ownership.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dantheman

I'm not saying it won't work, but it's naive to deny that scale does not create serious challenges with implementation. Let's start with the low-hanging fruit first--21+ to purchase, licensing, registration, etc. Going straight to mass confiscation seems likely to generate serious blowback and go nowhere.

---

A problem is that there is great awareness of the huge desire frequently and loudly espoused by many to do mass confiscation, and that reasonable inches are part of an incremental strategy to reach that confiscation milestone.

So this allows a narrative that common sense solutions should be opposed in order to delay the incremental goal of confiscation. And that "it's inevitable, so lets slow it down at every corner" narrative is heavily enable by shrill cries for confiscation by those who are also peddling small steps. That is why the right sadly won't take Feinberg's reasonable proposal seriously. But those screaming for confiscation don't care about that part of the equation, even when it means nothing gets done.

I said as much a few pages ago. Negotiation isn't a strong suit of the gun control crowd.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ::: :::

the gun owning public is 1/3 of the US

---

So is the percentage that says our last election was illegitimate and the guy who lost actually won and were willing to throw out democracy in the toilet due to lies and disproven conspiracy theories.

Your point?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Summit

A problem is that there is great awareness of the huge desire frequently and loudly espoused by many to do mass confiscation, and that reasonable inches are part of an incremental strategy to reach that confiscation milestone.

So this allows a narrative that common sense solutions should be opposed in order to delay the incremental goal of confiscation. And that "it's inevitable, so lets slow it down at every corner" narrative is heavily enable by shrill cries for confiscation by those who are also peddling small steps. That is why the right sadly won't take Feinberg's reasonable proposal seriously. But those screaming for confiscation don't care about that part of the equation, even when it means nothing gets done.

---

you can trace the paranoia over registration (specifically computer registries) and confiscation back to Red Dawn and mostly invented bullshit in the 1980s. Gun owners have agency, they aren’t forced to believe shit. But a vocal subset want to believe fantasy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

Totally agree. I don't know if Australians are culturally similar to citizens of the US. Meaning, was there the same obsession with guns that a significant portion of the US population has?

---

No Gravy SEALs in Oz then or now AFAIK. No one else fetishizes guns like Americans do. Well, maybe the Taliban.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bobby Stainless

Low hanging fruit. Interesting terminology for something that can't seem to get done.

---

It hangs a lot lower than mass confiscation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Buzzworthy

Really reaching there Dan

---

I'm just stating a fact. The Trump admin banned bump stocks and there was almost no pushback from the right. If Obama had done the same right-wing media would have been apoplectic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The AD

Grudgingly I'll admit that you're probably correct.

---

I think I'm right, but I wish I was wrong. Shit's fucked and not getting better. This country fetishizes guns in a way that is deeply disturbing.

Has anyone proposed widespread confiscation? Buybacks are not confiscation.

More than 1/3 of the US has a gun. Quit being so gullible.

People with illegal firearms aren't offering up that information.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mazderati

Buybacks are not confiscation.

---

The people that make guns out of crap and go buy new ones are really winning there.

https://investortimes.com/freedomout...hase-new-ones/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcphee

Fuck the gun owning public. They’re the minority and the majority of the public wants to severely restrict firearm access. Again, FUCK THE GUN OWNING PUBLIC. Your hobby and cosplay and fever dreams of the government/bogeyman coming to get you does not override the rational fear that unarmed citizens feel on a daily basis.

---

How many democrat lawmakers would vote to ban semi auto handguns and pump action shotguns? Not many.

All I hear is ban assault weapons but I respect the American sportsman horseshit.

Either you want an Australian type turn in, or you’re just playing politics.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mazderati

Has anyone proposed widespread confiscation? Buybacks are not confiscation.

---

Mandatory buybacks are confiscation with less financial loss.

Voluntary buybacks are legal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bobby Stainless

More than 1/3 of the US has a gun. Quit being so gullible.

---

back to lieing again stupid? God it’s funny watching you be a dumbass, then pretend you are just trolling, like a giant limpdicked gravy seal

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dantheman

No Gravy SEALs in Oz then or now AFAIK.

---

You should do some research.

There was very considerable opposition. by the Vegemite militia.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bobby Stainless

3% of firearms are "assault weapons". Get off your soapbox.

You aren't even focused on the correct firearm to change gun deaths in any meaningful way. Your lack of knowledge on the subject is dreadful.

It's pretty apparent most of you don't know the first thing about gun laws or gun ownership.

---

It’s actually about 5% and growing with 1 in 5 of every new gun sell being a high capacity mag, semi auto, black gun. There’s an estimated 20 mil of them in the US. I personally enjoy shooting bolt actions for accuracy more. They are not great for hunting big game and not great for home defense for many situations. 20 mil of a gun that is good for shooting coyotes, pigs, and people seems like a lot.

I guess to some they look cool and they can be good for adults who like playing with legos but don’t want their buddies knowing they play with legos.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

do you think the polling on common sense gun control legislation is false? Because what you say can't be true if so...meaning if Trump said today "pass common sense gun control legislation" I do think it would move things in the Senate enough. I get what you're saying, him being the embodiment of his supporters, but to that end almost all of the Trump supporters I know are also vaccinated. I can think of one friend who is a huge gun nut, antivaxxer, and rabid Trumper...so I know what you're saying...those people exist...is it most of the GOP supporters and then is it also most of the folks in the GOP who want common sense gun control? Not everyone is like Leroy on the gun nut side of things. Most of the folks I know, myself included, who own guns mainly own them for hunting...that's not the portion of the population that's the problem, nor should they be singled out as such.

---

I think gun culture changed away from the hunting culture a lot of us grew up with. It's more 'tactical' and militaristic revolving around personal defense where the answer to mass shootings is less restrictions, not more restrictions:


None of them see a connection between the weapons they own and the shootings at Sandy Hook, San Bernardino, Aurora, Orlando, Las Vegas, Parkland. They see mug shots of James Holmes, Omar Mateen, Stephen Paddock, Nikolas Cruz — “crazier than a shithouse rat,” they say. “If it hadn’t been that rifle, he’d have done it with something else.” They fear that what starts as an assault-weapons ban will snowball into an attack on everything in the safe. I don’t believe that politicians are going to ban ordinary guns or overturn the Second Amendment, but I understand their reasoning because I understand what’s at stake. I think about that boy picking up that AR in Cabela’s, and I’m torn between the culture I grew up with and how that culture has devolved. There are changes I know must come, changes to what types of firearms line the shelves and to the background checks and ownership requirements needed to carry one out the door. And there is an unrelenting fear of what could be lost — a subsistence culture already threatened by the loss of public land, rising costs and a widening rural-urban divide; the right of individuals to protect their own lives and the lives of their families.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Summit

Mandatory buybacks are confiscation with less financial loss.

Voluntary buybacks are legal.

---

Well, there's some rhetoric from the pro-gun crowd that should be parsed. Widespread voluntary buyback should be an easy win. Won't be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dunfree

back to lieing again stupid? God it’s funny watching you be a dumbass, then pretend you are just trolling, like a giant limpdicked gravy seal

---

https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.9d8I1N...pr=2.5&pid=1.7

Let it flow through you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Summit

A problem is that there is great awareness of the huge desire frequently and loudly espoused by many to do mass confiscation, and that reasonable inches are part of an incremental strategy to reach that confiscation milestone.

So this allows a narrative that common sense solutions should be opposed in order to delay the incremental goal of confiscation. And that "it's inevitable, so lets slow it down at every corner" narrative is heavily enable by shrill cries for confiscation by those who are also peddling small steps. That is why the right sadly won't take Feinberg's reasonable proposal seriously. But those screaming for confiscation don't care about that part of the equation, even when it means nothing gets done.

---

Yep.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mazderati

Has anyone proposed widespread confiscation? Buybacks are not confiscation.

---

If it's mandatory, which Australia's program was, it's confiscation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

You should do some research.

There was very considerable opposition. by the Vegemite militia.

---

I never said there wasn't opposition. I do think it's fair to say that on average Australian gun owners did/do not have an obsession with guns on par with what a significant portion of the US population has

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cono Este

How many democrat lawmakers would vote to ban semi auto handguns and pump action shotguns? Not many.

All I hear is ban assault weapons but I respect the American sportsman horseshit.

Either you want an Australian type turn in, or you’re just playing politics.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

---

Perfect should not be the enemy of better. If we could bust down the dam of "absolutely no federal gun regulation ever" and the horseshit research/data restrictions that would be incredibly helpful.
I'd rather have 0 shootings, but if my other choices are 2 and 50, I know what I'm picking.

OK adding dunfree and leroy to my ignore should make this thread considerably less unpleasant for the same reason that ignoring Bunny and teletech made the Ukraine/COVID threads readable. I should probably ignore SJG for the same reason as stuckathuntermtn: so dumb that their idiocy rubs off on their reader.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Conundrum

It’s actually about 5% and growing with 1 in 5 of every new gun sell being a high capacity mag, semi auto, black gun. There’s an estimated 20 mil of them in the US. I personally enjoy shooting bolt actions for accuracy more. They are not great for hunting big game and not great for home defense for many situations. 20 mil of a gun that is good for shooting coyotes, pigs, and people seems like a lot.

I guess to some they look cool and they can be good for adults who like playing with legos but don’t want their buddies knowing they play with legos.

---

20 million is not accurate. 6-10.

A suppressed 300blk is good for a lot of things. 5.56, not so much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mazderati

Well, there's some rhetoric from the pro-gun crowd that should be parsed. Widespread voluntary buyback should be an easy win. Won't be.

---

I'm not opposed to a widespread buyback, but I'm also not convinced it will help much. I bet the gun manufacturers will support it and the pawn shops won't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skiJ

the Question I do have is how was the school Safety Officer not in a position to defend the school - That is that officer's job.

Not to pursue an assailant in the neighborhood - secure and defend the school ;

when the call came that drew the school safety officer away, that school should have gone to LOCK-DOWN until the threat was gone. !!!


f* tj

---

apparently because he wasn’t there at all, according to the most recent briefing. Facts & narrative seem a bit confused still.

see yours, Summit - and we now have multiple incidents where what you claim to be revised, current training is not what's happening.

There are aspects of interpretation - does a mobile assailant qualify as an active shooter to be 'attacked' .

I still cannot abide by the school safety officer leaving school ground instead of LOCKing-DOWN the school with an assailant in the neighborhood...

the school's "plan" is not a plan - it is an administrator's outline.


sorry. enough. tj

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dantheman

I'm just stating a fact. The Trump admin banned bump stocks and there was almost no pushback from the right. If Obama had done the same right-wing media would have been apoplectic.

---

But the fact you think this has to do with trump and his “all powerful” hand over people…he didn’t and does not have this power. But people talk as if he does.

Presidents are just figure heads.
trump simply had a big fuggin mouth, that’s all. The power he supposedly has is from people fluffing him up. If people would just stop the idolization he’d be a past headline.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mazderati

Well, there's some rhetoric from the pro-gun crowd that should be parsed. Widespread voluntary buyback should be an easy win. Won't be.

---

he can’t face the reasoning behind the ban on a computerized gun registry because he desperately needs to play the center, utterly unwilling to see that the vocal pro gun peps represent a relatively small proportion of the population

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dunfree

apparently because he wasn’t there at all, according to the most recent briefing. Facts & narrative seem a bit confused still.

---

wow.
not hard to believe...

more awesomeness.

' is it worth trying!? '

for the kids -
The kids deserve better. tj

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bobby Stainless

20 million is not accurate. 6-10.

A suppressed 300blk is good for a lot of things. 5.56, not so much.

---

Not really tracking what the point of this discussion that you and Conundrum are having. Is the idea that we do more with the 5% or 10% of weapons classified as assault style weapons with the hopes that this reduces some of the mass shooting events? Additionally, is the point you two are making that this represents a smaller number of weapons to deal with so it may be feasible?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bobby Stainless

20 million is not accurate. 6-10.

A suppressed 300blk is good for a lot of things. 5.56, not so much.

---

What would the Firearm Industry Trade Association know about the number of modern sporting rifles in the US?

Quote:

---

Since 1990, there are an estimated 19.8 million Modern Sporting Rifles (MSRs) in circulation today.

---

https://www.nssf.org/articles/nssf-r...ction-figures/

Doesn’t “modern sporting rifle” make them sound pretty cool and useful for sports stuff?

And other than shooting many people quickly, or I guess multiple shots at one target because you can’t shoot for shit, what’s a semi-auto, 30 rd mag, suppressed 300blk SBR going to do that that my 26” barrel 3 rd bolt action 300 WM can’t?