I just watched it again. I call 100% bullshit on Jumpmans claim that the line is attached to the quick release mechanism of the kayakers PFD.
I have a feeling someone doesn't understand the point of a rescue vest.
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I just watched it again. I call 100% bullshit on Jumpmans claim that the line is attached to the quick release mechanism of the kayakers PFD.
I have a feeling someone doesn't understand the point of a rescue vest.
I haven't been able to get the vid to play anymore... keeps locking up after the ad...
Totally agreed, I don't think the quick release would hold with that amount of force i.e. pulling 2 people inQuote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
Jumpman,
Sorry but I also am SRT certified with years of river experience.
Your kayaker is no way an expert boater maybe in his head but truly not an expert. The type of boat he used is not in any way designed for what he tried to do, it is designed to flip and flop and do fun things, not carry a second person on the bow. Kayaks do have some great uses in swift water rescues but boogie boards are better for getting to and securing you patient. Remember once you have made physical contact you can not lose the patient you are then liable. So make sure when you decide to GO make it count.
He ended up prolonging the rescue when he swam as well as put the patient in the water upstream of a strainer. Since time was of the essence do to hypothermia you would have been much better sending in a swimmer and doing a live bait rescue but from the downstream side of the strainer, so as to not put the patient in more danger.
Yes I have made mistakes in rescues, we all have. It is not so much what mistake you make but how you react and learn from it. You did save that ladies life and not cause any other injuries and that is a job well done, but it could have been done in a safer and quicker way.
Hopefully you and your team can take some of this critsicm and learn from it. When I was a volunteer after every call we had a critique of the incident and we learned from each call.
Thanks for doing the job that you do.
Danny
Jumpman, chill out with PM's. I clearly stated that I didn't know anything about swiftwater rescue and the fact that I'm an idiot because I'm from TN was established years ago.
Summit, I always learn something from every one of your rescue thread responses regardless of the situation. If I or any of my crew is every in a situation that requires an outdoor rescue I hope there is somebody in charge of the situation that is as competent as you seem to be. Moreover, just reading some of the things you post helps me to recognize situations to stay out of so that a rescue isn't required.
If i had a nickel for every noob that has "called me out" because of my location.......
I think we need to refer the kayaker in that video to the "Got my roll" thread over on the kayak forum. :D
man, freaking rookies.
Actually a properly used quick release would. The webbing that the ring is on is first threaded through a flat plate metal D-ring sorta thing. [hard to describe, sorry]. That's in a big warning that comes with all rescue vests, not to just thread the webbing into the QR, but to go thru this flat D-ring thing first. Not doing that, you're right, no way it would hold 2 swimmers in current...Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakofSnow
And summit, thanks again for a good analysis. And for reminding me of that old adage....throw, row....then...go.
I whish I could screen capture the video but it appears to be copy protected. Watch the video again when he gets rolled at 01:44 into the video you can clearly see the rope is attached to the spray skirt. At other parts of the video you can see the ring on the back that he should be tied into is not being used. My guess is the rope or skirt wrapped around him when he started to get pulled up river. Him and the person being rescued are very luck the skirt held.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumpman
Yup, but like has been said, hopefully a learning experience...And I believe, from PM's, that they had downstream safety and a safety swimmer set, so they potentially could have brought them both in even if the skirt/rope had failed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurch
I would have been psyched to see knives available as well, given the use of ropes, but perhaps people were equipped with them and it just wasn't obvious.
The rope was not tied to the boat. I just talked with the guys who set it up. The beaner was attached to the front of the kayaker and went thru the skirt. He did this because the initial plan was if he got the women in the raft he was going to clip the beaner to the raft so we could pull her to us. As you saw that did not quite happen.
Another thing to remember. This eddie was very strong and very large. 100 yards min. When you saw the current taking the log and the victim, they were going upstream, not downstream. Just on the otherside, which we discussed taking her out was another strainer. The logs and debris you saw leaving where she was just went to the next strainer, UPSTREAM, the same place she would have been headed to. If we took her out on the other side she to would have gone back upstream into the next strainer. Plus there was no way to get the rope over to that side.
So, Here is a questioin for you all. Knowing now that the water you see in the video is going upstream, and there is another strainer just up stream of that, what side would you take her out on? And why.
Ah, clipped to the front, now that makes more sense. Kinda. I'm guessing it was hooked to the front of the 2" webbing that the ring goes thru on the back, so he did have some kind of quick release if he had needed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumpman
I don't know enough to 2nd guess your location question. Where you got her out was pretty close, from her to shore, could have been the best. And props on the up and downstream safety. My only thoughts to chew on would be on whether throwing her a rope, or rope with a horseshoe, may have been just as effective with less risk; whether a pole would have accomplished that; and whether your team might explore other tools like boogie boards. Again, nice job in the big picture, and thanks for turning this back toward a productive discussion for us all to learn from! :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tye 1on
We only use live bait. And yes contrary to popular belief we do know how to use them. It was on the webbing. A pole was out of the question. It was approx. 75 to 100 feet from her to us. Maybe a throw bag could have worked but that is quite a ways out for accuracy. Still looking for somer other answers though. Thanks for the answer.
That rope was clipped to the spray skirt, not any part of the rescue harness. You can see it clearly, when he is trying to roll, and towards the end when they are getting out of the water (around the 3:30ish mark).
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcsquared
You can believe what you want. Just remember we pulled two people in against the current......... I don't think the skirt would have held. But believe what you want.
The BOING-springy factor of the spray skirt was probably the only thing that kept it from breaking. Those handles are pretty strong, and the current wasn't that swift. I once swam and got the handle on my spray skirt wedged in between 2 rocks and I wished it wasn't as strong as it was. That was fun.
The skirt would hold.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumpman
I guess it could have very easily been run through the spray skirt to the webbing on the front of his jaket. I just don't see why he would not use the ring on the back. It's not hard to reach and if he has to swim he is hooked in the ideal location.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumpman
That must be one hell of an eddy I've only been in one that meets the size you are describing with that kind of power. I would not have wanted to get near that strainer with a playboat or on live bait. But given your situation I would have went for the throw rope then live bait with two lines. One at 45 degrees to the victim and the other at almost 90 degrees. That way the swimmer could be lowered into place then backed up a few feet and pulled directly to shore.
Talking about these things after the fact is good for everyone. As well as practicing the basics over and over again. I've been in life or death rescue situation with a friend under a submerged log directly in the middle of a river. There is no time to think and you are unable to think clearly, it's all instinct at that moment.
I just review the tape again closer this time. At 1.48 I stopped the tape. You can clearly see that the rope is beanered to the skirt. I WILL have a talk with the two that set this up and it will not happen again. See everyone can learn, as long as you do. Thanks for picking up on that. I had just checked with the kaykaer this a.m. and he told me it was beanered to his webbing thru the skirt loop. NOT SO.Quote:
Originally Posted by ridinshockgun
Very interesting.
Jumpman, first, let me say, props to you both for rescuing her and then for sticking it out and arguing with a bunch of internet know-it-alls.
I think his attachment point was the very first thing many of us saw when we watched the video. That and the playboat. I am not sure what other gear you had at your disposal...what is the story with the boat? Does your group own it for SWR or is it somebody's own boat?
Second, your explanation that we are actually looking at an eddy makes sense. I realize there was limited time and tools on hand.
In retrospect, if I was there, with the gear you had, I probably would have allowed myself to be live baited (with the d ring on my back being the attachment point) down and just hauled her off. Trying to have a non-boater hold onto a playboat or get into a deflated raft were the two major flaws I saw.
Again, she is alive, good work.
Out of curiousity, how did you find this thread? There have been discussions at boatertalk, too.
Someone told me about it. Then just checked it out. Saw boatertalk too but there seemed to be more here. Been both places.Quote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
The boat is privately owned by the guy using it. I wanted him to use mine which is an 8.5 preception, better suited for this work, I know. He thought he was better suited and comfortable using his. I don't think we will be doing that again. Maybe mine tho. we talked about that today and he agreed mine would have been a better choice. We also have a zodiac, but this time we had no time to get it to this location. It was still at least 20 to 25 out.
The raft was an after thought seeing we had no other boat there. We knew it was deflated. Just not by how much. I would always like to keep my rescurers out of the water if possible. Sometimes I know it is not. We did the reach, throw, row, go. However????? We have always, and always will learn from our mistakes and from others. I know I souonded like an asshole at first. I do get very defensive when I hear and see my volunteers getting eating alive for trying to do their job. But like I try and teach them, keep mouth closed until we have all the info to make our decisions or comments. If I offended anyone on this, I apolize but that is just me. And yes I was the "INCOMPETENCE IN CHARGE".
Everybody's still alive, just live and learn for the next time is all.
I still can't see the video because it crashes my computer for some reason, but all's well that ends well, I guess.
Don't get complacent, please.
I turned jumpman onto this thread. I am the president of the local kayak club here in Spokane and area rep. for Bliss-Stick. After seeing the footage I contacted jumpman 1st to on behalf of the club offer his "kayaker" a chance to take a swiftwater rescue clinic from Mick Hopkinson at the end of June and second as Bliss-Stick rep. offer them a creeker at a great deal. What I got was a very defensive stone wall. As it seemed no use in arguing I said thanks for returning my call and that he should check out this site. Now that things have seemed to soften I hope he will contact the club and we all as a community can work on fixing the problems.
Thanks for airing this issue
Bliss-Stick
heh.Quote:
Private Message from jumpman:
You just showed me how stupid you really are. I will put his ability up against your anytime day of night.
Thank you for the worthwhile input Jumpman.
You're right, that really was an above average rescue.
GEOFF
Instead aof a smart ass comment how bout an answer to the above. Or are you just good for the smart ass comments.
Jumpman I'd like to see you reply to questions and criticisms of my last post
Jumpman,
Thanks for clarifying about the strainer downstream.
Without being there and seeing the distance to the other strainers, I would still go with my initial assumption to do a live bait retrieval.
With a strainer upstream in the eddy and another down stream I would have tried a telfer(sp) lower to the victim to control my swimmer.
The kayak in that instance would have been useful to get a small diameter rope across the river and then pull the larger rope across to set up for this. With training this system can be set up rather quickly, we used to train with this on low heads. The one thing that might prevent this of course is the width of the river and what your resources are, i.e. not enough rope.
If I was in your position I would definitely talk to the bliss tek rep and take him up on the creek boat offer as well as possibly the SRT classes. The right tools can make all the differences.
Another great tool maybe not so much in this circumstance are the use of boogie boards.
Summit,Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
Here you go. Sorry it took me this long to respond. But I am not afraid to respond and admit something were done wrong. Bottom line we won, death lost. Here goes. And I am not being defensive.
Upstram safeties. Yes we had 2 upsterwam and 3 downstream.
I doubt she was warmer, maybe a little. She had only been out of the water for approx 5 min when we arrived. Yes she was put back in, I do not like to have to do that but as yousee we had to. No other boat around and we knew she was hypother. Once she was on shore she was in the hands of medics. I agree she should have been dealt with completly different. I thought that as they dealt with her. I am L.E. She was then being dealt with by medics and Fire. We will be talking with their medic folks about hypothermic people in the very near future.
Trying to get her into the raft was to keep her out of the water. as it turned out not a good idea as she went in anyway. We are not sure how she ended up in the water yet as we still have not talked with her. If you saw her, Idid not feel she was capable of holding on to a rope to be pulled in pluss it was at least 75 to 100 ft toget her a line.
BNecause of the eddie andd the strength of it we figure he would probable have some problems. As i stated before it was my bad as to not give him slack so he could complete his roll. Plus I think my boat would have been a better choice. Se have discussed this and he agreed too.
As I said before, Fire has their own protocol. Are folks do not get near the water without PFD. Helmets are as needed. Not always. Something for us to look at. Thanks.
Turnouts, I agree. However again I have no control over fire. I have seen them on the ice in winter in turnouts withour PFD's. I too shake my head. I hope this answers all your questions. Feel free to recontact me and I will answer. Thanks again for your criquete(SP). At least you gave us one in a contructive manner. Thanks again
I appreciate your answer!
Without addressing any of the techniques used here, I can only think of two words that come to mind, "gross negligence." These two words are some favorites used by lawyers. The fact that you were able to pull this girl from the water is a miracle. You should be thanking the sweet baby Jesus that you are not having a memorial service for any of your rescuers and a funeral for the victim as well. Saying that death lost is a mistake...you cheated death...this time.
Gross negligence should be a very real concern of yours. I assume you were the I.C. Did you have a safety officer? If you did they might have caught the bad rope attachment or the fact that your "safety dingy" was a dangerous choice. You had better equipment and you chose not to use it (ref. a more stable kayak). You ARE very responsible for the safety of your crew, other rescue workers, bystanders and the victim. You should not allow any other people without the proper equipment near your scene. If they are, establish a safe zone and ask them to go there. If they do not, ask the sheriff deputy, who was on the haul team without any personal protection, to kindly remove them. The fact that you recognize these hazards is good. The fact that you chose to do nothing about it is gross negligence. You don't know what you can't see. That means if you were never taught then you can't recognize. Conversely, if you do know what is safer and chose something else that is a big problem.
That was hilarious.
I don't know what was funnier. The impending doom of watching dumbass stroll up to the lady with a half inflated raft(which would have sunk) or seeing him miss his roll several times and then bailing.
I didn't watch the very end, but that water looks like class II at best.
Good response Blurred Eleven. That was real helpful. Thanks for all your thought, without knowing anything about anyything.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlurredElevens
I would still like to hear:
Why was it thought that the victim could get into a raft or hold onto a kayak if she was deemed incapable of grasping a rope?
Sad Santos makes some very good points: You must control your scene for the protection of those in other agencies as well. Around here the Sherrif would kick anyone out if we asked them to. Luckily, the LEO and FFs around here have been trained by the water rescue team in "how not to get yourself killed on a swiftwater scene." Perhaps in conjunction with Bliss-Stick's offer, a 1hr presentation could be put together for other agencies.
I'm guessing if that there were a bunch of lookey-loos there as well, and that we don't see them in the video, only fire/ems/sar suggests to me that somebody was indeed doing crowd control. Safety officer: always a great idea, harder to accomplish in practice with small teams like this one [under a dozen]. That small, ya, imho, typically don't even get into ICS mode, maybe an ops chief and medical lead, but the rest are involved in the effort.
That Bliss-stick offer is awesome, props! Hope ya check on that jumpster. I would also think a little about other tools, boogie board, duckies, etc.
Now I'm curious, since this thread appears to have taken a bit of a 'lessons learned' twist, [and thanks for your responses], do you think you'd do anything different if you rolled up on a similar scenario tomorrow?
edit-Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumpman
Maybe you and your SAR team should practice a bit before playing hero.
That water is not that swift. Taking a low volume play boat out for the save was a piss poor idea.
You should know these things BEFORE an easy rescue like this one occurs.
Your team should have the proper equipment with them, they clearly didn't.
Then you go on and on about the woman being cold. Duh. Come and speak with a swiftwater team in the mountains where ALL whitewater (not class II) is snow melt. They could teach you guys a thing or two. That was a clown show, sorry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
It would be a lot eariser for her to get in a raft than to try and hold a line. That was the thought. Al he would be able to hold on to her as we pulled them both in. It id not turn out that way.so we were hoping that
We have two 8.5 perceptions but the paddler wanted to use his own. As I said before we have discussed this and we will be using mine from now on. Again I will be taking with Fire and medics on some protocols. Medics did not treat her gently enough no get rid of her clothes fast enough as far as I was concerned.
Being a small team and my partner was not able to show up. I did get involved instead of command. It is hard to do both well. Most cases something suffers.
The thought was she was to cold to hold on to a rope maybe she could get into the raft. It would be eaiser to get into a raft than to hold the rope if cold.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
I will be talking to both Fire and Medics on their care of the victim. She was not reated as a hpothermic person should have been. Fire again all I can do is talk with them. We still have to work with them as they maybe our only help. We will be trying to train them, we'll see how that goes.
As I said before we will be using my 8.5 perception from now on and not his playboat.
And maybe we do practice, that is way we had a successful rescue. Maybe not text book or even close but we won. The boat was a mistake, I have admitted that numerous times. we will be using mine from now on. If you read the previous post you will see that we are a volunteer team and most our equipment was still 20 to 30 out. Should we have done nothing? I carry a lot of gear but not all. Some of the guys carry their own boats such as he did. If you think that the 21000cfs is not snow melt then please tell me what it is?????? I am glad that your team has never made any mistakes and your so great, we are still trying to get to that status. This clown show did in fact make a successful save and we also learned from it to, from some of the other posters.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlurredElevens
Hey Jumpman, jusy my opinion. If your kayaker is going to be using the Perception it should become "his boat" and have the department buy you another one. If he is really commited, he needs to feel more comfortable in it than he does in his his play boat. In current dealing with a swimmer, pin, wrap, etc... you cannot be thinking about how the boat you are in is handling, it needs to be automatic, like sittinh in you lounger. He should be in the boat several times a week, each and every week so that his own stability is not even an issue. I don't know what model Perception you are using but since they have not made a new boat in years you should make sure it has a semi planing hull, not displacement as it makes a more stable platform to work from. Also with a creeker the ends are higher to get the swimmer more out of the water. Hope this helps.
Bliss-Stick
Having been a medic for several years and knowing the attitude of most medics (if infact they are medics and not EMT-B or A's) you might not be well received. If they aren't interested in providing better/quality pt. care and the Q/A process, it might mean giving their director or physician director a call. Just a heads up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumpman