OH NO Landis Positive drug test?

Is it just me, or would it be nice if this shit wasn't even made available to the public until a determination was made. Keep it in house until it is time.
If Floyd Landis is guilty, we should find out when both samples are tested, a positive for doping is verified, yada, yada, yada.
If he is innocent, and it is determined that the test was jacked, that it was a natural process in his body, or that his testosterone was too low in relation to the Epitestosterone, then the public shouldn't even facking know about the A sample being positive.

I freaking love cycling, but this crap is going to kill the sport.

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Originally Posted by JoshP

Is it just me, or would it be nice if this shit wasn't even made available to the public until a determination was made. Keep it in house until it is time.

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Exactly................

^^Agreed ^^

Interesting, though, that Beloki et al were cleared from O.Puerto, but all anyone can talk about is Floyd's doping. They must friggin be pissed being removed from the tour but then cleared now.

Bad press or good press, cycling is definitely being talked about.

Fingers still crossed that Floyd comes out clean from this. Even moreso that Floyd actually did nothing, not just got away with doing something that fell into the 'gray area'...

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Originally Posted by JoshP

Is it just me, or would it be nice if this shit wasn't even made available to the public until a determination was made. Keep it in house until it is time.
If Floyd Landis is guilty, we should find out when both samples are tested, a positive for doping is verified, yada, yada, yada.
If he is innocent, and it is determined that the test was jacked, that it was a natural process in his body, or that his testosterone was too low in relation to the Epitestosterone, then the public shouldn't even facking know about the A sample being positive.

I freaking love cycling, but this crap is going to kill the sport.

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I agree but in this case it seems that his not showing up for an event kinda let the cat out of the bag.

I just can't believe that he would have been stupid enough to use something as pedestrian as testosterone, with no masking agent, etc, when he knew he would be tested after the stage. HGH, EPO, etc and their masking agents: maybe. But testosterone? Doesn't make sense...so hopefully there is a legit reason for this.

^ nonono, you're making way too much sense! just knee-jerk the frenchies into surrendering instead! :)

I think the french are on a witch hunt for an american dopper. How many times did these rumors come out after each and every one of Lance's victories???. Its more of the same....I hope.

I am with Freshies, I can't beleive that Floyd would be doping, knowing that he was coming into this tour to be a GC contender. He is smaaarter than that......I hope again.

i'm sure their journalists are just as sensationalistic as ours. i also believe a lot of french people may get a kick out of catching the american winner doping...

it appears however, that the rules do not allow landis to be given the benefit of the doubt (i.e., this isn't even a moral issue anymore). i'll still have my convictions then, but after a few months, calmer minds will write the history regardless of how many facts are known, and that is what will remain as true. the blame game is useless as an excuse.

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Originally Posted by Crinkle

I think the french are on a witch hunt for an american dopper. How many times did these rumors come out after each and every one of Lance's victories???. Its more of the same....I hope.

I am with Freshies, I can't beleive that Floyd would be doping, knowing that he was coming into this tour to be a GC contender. He is smaaarter than that......I hope again.

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These rumors came out after Indurain victories, after Pantani victory... These rumors are old as the Tour itself. And it's not only rumors. Pantani was on drugs, Virenque, the last french racer able to win the Tour has been convicted of doping charges, Armstrong and Indurain were associated with Michele Ferrari...
If Landis is clean, a B test will demonstrate it. (And he will have to thank his team for leaking the story).

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

We have a HODOWN!

Yeeehaaa!!!!!!!!

On a more serious note, how the hell would a 24 hour dosing of 'roids be helpful? They don't work that quick. Or could someone with more insight explain the benefits to me?

I can see a transfusion of red blood cells, but 'roids?

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Single doses of testosterone are taken to alleviate exhaustion.

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Originally Posted by Lurch

Single doses of testosterone are taken to alleviate exhaustion.

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hmm, i did not know this, very interesting. but again, my point is isn't testosterone the easiest of all those drugs to test for? and wouldn't Floyd know that he was gonna get caught if he took such an easily detectable drug? so why would he? doesn't make sense to me...

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Originally Posted by philippeR

These rumors came out after Indurain victories, after Pantani victory... These rumors are old as the Tour itself. And it's not only rumors. Pantani was on drugs, Virenque, the last french racer able to win the Tour has been convicted of doping charges, Armstrong and Indurain were associated with Michele Ferrari...
If Landis is clean, a B test will demonstrate it. (And he will have to thank his team for leaking the story).

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Agreed...I sometimes don't understand all this supposed French bashing against American riders. Don't get me wrong, I know the French press do it, but isn't it just because a US rider has been winning rather than some desire by French to bash Americans? And all this talk about them being pissed because 'we' are beating 'them'? When's the last time a french rider was a real contender, or stood on the podium under an American? Was it a frenchy that LeMond whooped up on? I sometimes think we like to put ourselves in the position as underdog, especially when it comes to beating euros.

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Originally Posted by PJG

Was it a frenchy that LeMond whooped up on?

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Yes.
Nothin less than Bernard Hinault, then Laurent Fignon.

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Originally Posted by freshies

I just can't believe that he would have been stupid enough to use something as pedestrian as testosterone, with no masking agent, etc, when he knew he would be tested after the stage. HGH, EPO, etc and their masking agents: maybe. But testosterone? Doesn't make sense...so hopefully there is a legit reason for this.

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What are the masking agents? Curious.

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Originally Posted by Lurch

Single doses of testosterone are taken to alleviate exhaustion.

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Really? Do you have any medical info to support that?

Not doubting, I'd just like to read some literature on it.

Or I could get off my lazy ass and search for it.

^Yeah, I need to read some of this shit too. Heard about a testosterone patch from a friend today. Think Nicorette, but instead of helping with the nic fit, it would help me keep up with your jetboiling ass.:biggrin:

Heard on NPR today that Floyd did an interview with Sports Illustrated, and said he had some sort of Thyroid issue, and he was taking a Thyroid Extract...
Link to the article
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...act/index.html

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Really? Do you have any medical info to support that?

Not doubting, I'd just like to read some literature on it.

Or I could get off my lazy ass and search for it.

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It's been too long since I read about it's use as a stimulant to find the source. cyclingnews.com did have an interview with a doctor earlier this month where he talks about using testosterone patches to aid in recovery.

Bottom of the page:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...l06/jul06news4

We give IV "stress doses" of Hydrocortisone for some patients in the ER, but I wonder what these athletes are using?
We also use them for anti-inflammatory effects.

We need Tri-U to explain this stuff, he's the doc.

Must have something to do with this.......not exactly related, but similar.

Quote:

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n normal subjects, daily cortisol production is estimated to be equivalent to 10 to 12 mg of oral hydrocortisone per day.1 Endogenous cortisol levels rise rapidly in response to surgery: cortisol production rises to about 50 mg/day in response to minor surgery, and 75 to 150 mg/day in response to major surgery. This increased production is not uniform: the main increase takes place immediately after anesthesia is induced. Cortisol levels generally return to baseline within 24 to 48 hours after surgery. This short-term elevation of endogenous cortisol has a number of anti-inflammatory and other protective effects that prevent stress-induced hypotension and shock.

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I may be wrong, but i don't think testosterone helps with 'exhaustion'. But, it does accelerate recovery of muscle, which is one of the reasons bodybuilders use it. they can work out longer and more frequently, so in a sense it prevents muscle fatigue.

The Effect of Alcohol Consumption on the Urinary Testosterone /
Epitestosterone Ratio


By Dr Simon Davis B.Sc., Ph.D.


Summary


Intoxicating beverages contain a number of different forms of alcohol,
the major constituent of which is ethanol. When a beverage is consumed
the ethanol content passes through the stomach wall and digestive tract
into the blood stream. Once the ethanol enters circulation it begins
to alter the bodies' biochemistry. One such reaction is to
differentially increase the rates of testosterone (T) and
epitestosterone (E) metabolism. The overall effect of this reaction is
to increase the ratio of T to E excreted in the urine.


It has been reported that ethanol consumption can increase urinary T/E
ratios by 30% - 277% in healthy individuals. Observed changes in
plasma T/E ratios can occur with the consumption of less than 2 pints
of lager. The ingestion of ethanol by an individual will increase the
T/E ratio observed in a urine sample.


It follows that if the effect of ethanol on T/E ratios is calculated
relative to urinary E concentrations, it can be seen that increases in
the ratio are exponential as E concentrations decrease. Individuals
with naturally low E concentrations could, therefore, experience
increases in T/E ratios of ? 940% greater than increases experienced in
an individual with normal E concentrations. Calculations estimate
that in individuals with low urinary E concentration, ratios of 17 to 1
or higher could have resulted from ethanol consumption without any
administration of exogenous T.


The current T/E ratio test as performed by Kings College Laboratory and
approved by the UK Sports, the IWF and IOC cannot discriminate between
a 13 to 1 T/E ratio resulting from ethanol ingestion or a 13 to 1 ratio
resulting from endogenous T administration.

interesting! the cynic in me says "just an excuse", especially since he talked about the beer so much before getting caught.

i'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

edit, question for trackhead: the Doctor who wrote this article isn't an MD, what's his PhD in?

No shit, a freaking beer could be the cause of all this crap.

BTW, I am working on increasing my T/E ratio at the moment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

It has been reported that ethanol consumption can increase urinary T/E ratios by 30% - 277% in healthy individuals. Observed changes in plasma T/E ratios can occur with the consumption of less than 2 pints of lager. The ingestion of ethanol by an individual will increase the
T/E ratio observed in a urine sample.

The current T/E ratio test as performed by Kings College Laboratory and
approved by the UK Sports, the IWF and IOC cannot discriminate between
a 13 to 1 T/E ratio resulting from ethanol ingestion or a 13 to 1 ratio
resulting from endogenous T administration.

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Fascinating. Thanks for the education.

A 30% increase is gigantic swing in the ratios - 277% would be off the the chart huge. Not being able to differentiate between drinking a beer and getting a shot is not going to help Floyd's case.

I increased my T/E ratio at least 40% tonight.

Perfect, now I can add drinking to my workout routine because it boosts my testosterone levels. :rolleyes: I seriously hope it was the sixer that Floyd drank the night before and not him doping. Although 6 beers isn't a lot to most people, it probably is to a 140 pound dude with no fat on him, so that might have done it. I'll drink to that.:biggrin:

Interview with Floyd, audio only.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by f2f

interesting! the cynic in me says "just an excuse", especially since he talked about the beer so much before getting caught.

i'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

edit, question for trackhead: the Doctor who wrote this article isn't an MD, what's his PhD in?

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I don't know.

But look here. From this link.

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National Public Health Institute, Laboratory of Pharmacology and Toxicology, Helsinki, Finland.

The effect of alcohol (1.2 and 2.0 g/kg) on the urinary testosterone-to-epitestosterone (T/E) ratio was studied by two experiments each conducted with four healthy females and males. The intake of 2.0 g/kg of ethanol within 5 h in the evening significantly increased plasma testosterone concentration and ratio of T/E in urine collected next morning in females. The results suggest that alcohol increases the T/E ratio more in females than in males. The effect of high doses of alcohol on urinary T/E ratio must be kept in mind when doping tests are performed during training periods.

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Please read paragraph 2 from this link, pdf format.

My point is this, maybe he did dope. But the same science that is finding him guilty to this point, also admits to the problems with the test.

Until you research it, you have to have an open mind. Or you're just another media whore.

i agree with you.

side note: i have also experienced increased endurance after a long night out, paired with an increased ability to concentrate :)

side note 2: that will also explain at least partially the 35 bottles of water he needed for the climb (70 in total, but he only drank 35)

edit: now with 100% more legible writing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

We give IV "stress doses" of Hydrocortisone for some patients in the ER, but I wonder what these athletes are using?
We also use them for anti-inflammatory effects.

We need Tri-U to explain this stuff, he's the doc.

Must have something to do with this.......not exactly related, but similar.

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You've prolly given cortisol injections to achy joints in the ER, similar stuff to the endogenous cortisol our body makes.

I've been digging around, and there might be some rationale that chronic cortisol exposure (repeated injections to his hip) might screw up his hypothalamic/pituitary axis which could well have effects downstream in re: to the epitestosterone:testosterone levels. That could be part of the abnormal test result.

Also, as you mention, alcohol might play a role. Here's the earliest research into this phenomenon.

I first thought Floyd was guilty, but the more I look into this, the more I think that he may have a very good case for innocence, at least in regards to the abnormal test in question.

And I'd agree with you that it wouldn't make sense to take testosterone for quick recovery after bonking on a bad stage - it doesn't jive with how the steroid works at the moecular level and nor physiologically as far as I can tell. I dunno about Lurch's link, but here's what Dr. Gary Wadler, a member of the World Anti-Doping Agency and a spokesman for the American College of Sports Medicine has to say:

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Testosterone can build muscle and improve recovery time when used over a period of several weeks, but if Landis had been a user, his earlier urine tests during the tour would have been affected.

"So something's missing here," Wadler said. "It just doesn't add up

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As I mentioned over in the TTips thread, I certainly hope that they ultimately include some other data to support or undermine the doping charge, such as longitudinal study of Landis's T:E ratio from previous samples, C13:C14 isotope ratio testing, LH:testosterone and andosterone:testosterone ratios. If they actually go by the parameters they've set out themselves, WADA will either more definitively condemn or (hopefully) exonerate Landis.

Finally, the "guilty before all the data is in" that WADA and UCI have engaged in along with all their press leaks really weakens their case, not just with Landis, but with Lance or anybody else they're accusing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Interview with Floyd, audio only.

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Thanks for posting. I'm going to continue to give Floyd the benefit of the doubt.

from Lurch's link above (and originally from Jork Jaksche's doctor)...

"To help recover, testosterone and human growth hormone can be used. "Both are made by the body and are therefore natural substances," he said. "They help to build muscle as well as in muscle recovery."

Dr Moosburger explained how it was done. "You put a standard testosterone patch that is used for male hormone replacement therapy on your scrotum and leave it there for about six hours. The small dose is not sufficient to produce a positive urine result in the doping test, but the body actually recovers faster."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by philippeR

If Landis is clean, a B test will demonstrate it. ...

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It seems to me that this isn't necessarily true. Everything I've read states that the test is more or less open to interpretation, which leaves it rather open ended.

"The T/E ratio is not a sure-fire way to measure testosterone in the body, but it's the only detection method currently used under anti-doping controls."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tri-Ungulate

I certainly hope that they ultimately include some other data to support or undermine the doping charge, such as longitudinal study of Landis's T:E ratio from previous samples, C13:C14 isotope ratio testing, LH:testosterone and andosterone:testosterone ratios. If they actually go by the parameters they've set out themselves, WADA will either more definitively condemn or (hopefully) exonerate Landis.

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He,he. Floyd is going to be quite the lab rat in the near future. If nothing else, he may change the face of doping controls.

They'll need to hire on a whole new fleet of consulting Endocrinologists just to keep up.

Excuse me, Yellow Jersey holder, please step into the lab for the rest of the evening. We will now be conducting tests for the next several hours, to see if you are human or not.

It's strange that the red flag popped up on one test. You would think that the the ratio would be out of whack from stage 17 on if he took a mega dose of something to revive himself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ulty_guy

from Lurch's link above (and originally from Jork Jaksche's doctor)...

"To help recover, testosterone and human growth hormone can be used. "Both are made by the body and are therefore natural substances," he said. "They help to build muscle as well as in muscle recovery."

Dr Moosburger explained how it was done. "You put a standard testosterone patch that is used for male hormone replacement therapy on your scrotum and leave it there for about six hours. The small dose is not sufficient to produce a positive urine result in the doping test, but the body actually recovers faster."

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Yeah, but that quote doesn't mention how long testosterone needs to be administered in order to improve strength and recovery. It tells you the dosing interval (six hours for the patch) but not the dosing duration. The quote from Dr. Gary Wadler above does (on the order of weeks), and makes more sense to me based on what most of the basic science and medical evidence shows. I can imagine how extra testosterone might make somebody feel a bit more aggressive if taken the night before, but for recovering from a bonk the day before, I think the physiological benefit of one days worth of testosterone administration would be either zero or so small as to not be worth it. Trackhead posted the Outside article where that author takes all the performance-enhancing meds to see what it's like, and the author doesn't notice the testosterone effect right away, either.

So in a nutshell, Floyd'd have to have taken the testosterone long-term in order to gain a recovery benefit, not just the night before. And if he'd been doing that, his earlier samples (which were definitely taken pre-race as well as when he wore the yellow jersey earlier in the race) would have been suspect as well.

TH, I think that a lot of the tests I mentioned can be done on the archived samples, so he may not need to come back in for more testing, though I'm sure he will in order to substantiate his case if he truly is innocent. It's my impression that the C13:C14 ratio will be a best way to tell if the testosterone is from his body or from an outside source, and according to WADA guidelines, they ought to be running that test as well.

Floyd is apparently in the process of giving a news conference about the issue at a Spanish press conference. Started at 11:30 EST but I don't know if it is being televised. Guess we'll see what he's got to say shortly.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/o...orts-headlines

I must say looking back on how much he mentioned beer in the several interviews after his bonk and then his big stage win, I am a bit suspect. Was that just something he was planting to the press just in case he was caught with higher testosterone levels because he did dope that day? Dunno. Hope not.

cnn headline news has it live.

"admitted to taking hormones for a thyroidal problem and said that his tests have always been high"

"this is what we're going to do: i ask first that the case not be treated as a doping case, second: that in the same way every other sportsman has done, i will undergo all tests necessary to prove that the high levels are normal for my organism; thirdly, until the research has completed i ask that i not be treated as guilty and i declare [essentially that he's clean]"

you'll get better quotes in a few minutes on google news, i'm sure.

sweet thanks.
wow, everyone has it live now. CNN, MSNBC, etc.

YUP, live on ESPN

It's on a delay on ESPN.