Hang in there Bro. It will get better. When things heat up you'll get work. Your experience counts and out weighs crap from your supervisor. Don't panic. Thought about contract crews? It's a possibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by YetiMan
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Hang in there Bro. It will get better. When things heat up you'll get work. Your experience counts and out weighs crap from your supervisor. Don't panic. Thought about contract crews? It's a possibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by YetiMan
so, they gave my job in washington to a girl with very little experience, she's a FFT1 trainee :rolleyes:
the forest supervisor cares more about hiring a woman than hiring someone with 10 years of fire.
I was so stoked about this job, my friend up there and I had a long talk about what we wanted to do, how we were going to build the fire program up there. It's all gone because they had to hire a female...with no experience :mad: :mad: I was so stoked to get the hell out of this office, to cut trees and travel...all of it. gone
so, I'm stuck in dispatch, where my petty, weird bipolar boss hates me and is actively trying to make my job suck and me personally uncomfortable in it. Every single day that I've worked this season has been the worst day of my career, and my career is what sustains every part of my life, fire pays for ski season, it pays for my home, it's all I've done with my summers since 1996. Additionally, every day I've been taken aside and chewed out for some petty thing like not tucking my t shirt in or coming into work 15 minutes early or asking if we had a phone number for an engine, I can't really win for losing in there.
I'm honestly not sure what to do. I honestly think that if I could afford it I would go to a shrink. Somebody asked me the other day what I do for fun and I couldn't think of a good answer, all I do is work, it's fire season so you know how that is, and every work day is hell, and my only way out for this season is now gone.
yetiman - You can afford a shrink if you want one. The FS will pay for it. Ask someone at work about the Employee Assistance Program. I've used it, and counseling was free. Check yo PM's.
Damn dude! Sorry to hear things are going so shitty for you. The hiring system sucks. Either you're getting beat out by a minority or a vet or some FMOs sister-in-law's cousin. I would tell you to stick it out...its only a few more months, but your position sounds pretty shitty. Fire, dispatch, the FS will always be there. Maybe you should think about leaving it for the summer. There is a lot I sacrifice for fire, but when things get shitty and I'm hating life I find myself contemplating whether it's really worth it. How much of your happiness and livelyhood are you willing to sacrifice?
If I were you I'd probably be looking for another job. Maybe private contract an engine or tender or something... You'd make a killing.
Good luck, I hope things work out for ya.
I guess they didn't care what Wally thought...:nonono2:
Representative Wally Herger (R-CA)
Testimony before the House Committee on Government Reform and Oversite Subcommittee on Civil Service
"I appreciate this opportunity to address the Committee on the important matter of racial and gender preferences in federal agency hiring and promotion decisions. Mr. Chairman, I have several documents that I would request unanimous consent to be included in the record which are numbered and have been made available to the members of the committee.
Mr Chairman, I represent an area which includes all, or parts of eight national forests and I have had dozens of US Forest Service employees contact me to express their disgust with the forest Service's discriminatory and unfair hiring and promoting practices.
They tell me about how careers have been derailed, morale has been devastated, personnel costs have skyrocketed, and public resources and even public safety have been put at risk due to the imposition of bizarre hiring and promotion decisions. According to Webster's Dictionary the word "discriminate" is defined as to make a difference in treatment or favor on basis other thatn individual merit.
Mr. Chairman, I will use my time today to exhibit how the US Forest Service has continually and blatantly engaged in discriminatory hiring and promotion practices and has outright failed to hire on the basis of merit for many positions.
Example 1: One Forest Service job announcement declared that, and I quote "Only Unqualified Applicants May Apply", unquote. This was an attempt by the Forest Service to avoid hiring or promoting qualified employees in order to fill the jobs with minority. . . but unqualified employees. If this is not discrimination, I don't know what is.
Example 2: Notes from a Forest Service Civil Rights Action Group meeting state, quote, "there are many factors involved in the selection process and the objective is to select a qualifiedperson, not necessarily the most qualified," unquote. Again, the Forest Service is directing their supervisors to not hire the most qualified individual. . .that's discrimination.
Example 3: A memo from a Forest Service Assistant Director for Affirmative Action states, quote "The only legal requirement f e to meet entry level qualification requirements. Greater tenure may produce candidates who are over qualified but that is irrelevant to the issue at hand, which is getting on with and agency affirmative action program", unquote.
I cannot imagine too many private sector business' that would last very long if they deliberately passed over the most qualified person for the job. This is discrimination.
Example 4: A "White Paper" produced by the Plumas National Foreset, which is located in my Congressional District, spells out in grim detail the consequence of quota hiring plans. Quote, "In a growing number of instances, we are not filling positions when there are no women applicants. In the past three months, we have either re-advertised, left vacant, or filled with unqualified temporaries eleven permanent positions becaue we could not find female applicants. If the position is in fire prevention or forest fuels management, the job simply doesn't get done and we face the consequence of additional person-caused fires". Continuing with the quote, "When the roster was completed, the majority of applicants were male and the top of the roster was blocked by male veterans. The Plumas attempted to fill five fire positions from the roster, but could only reach two women. Both women declined our offers. No offers were made to men. All fire positions are presently vacant or filled by unqualified temporary employees", end quote.
Now, with this example, not only are federal workers being discriminated against by the Forest Service, but civilian citizens are being put at risk. Innocent people could have died or had their homes destroyed because the Forest Service refused to fill critical fire fighting positions due to their ridiculous quota requirements.
When cirticised for its quota policies, the Forest Service often blames a court order to diversify their workforce. However, a 1994 letter from the Department of Agriculture Assistant Secretary for Administration states, quote "The (consent) decree required that one selection factor in all cases was to be whether the applicant contributed to the Agency's diversity. . .It also limited the use of this factor either as tie-breaker when all other quaifications were equal, or as one of several factors", unquote. The letter goes on to say that only, quote "One of those expectatons is that competitive promotions will be based on merit factors. If someone comptetes for a position and is the best pqeson quaified for the job, he or she will be selected", unquote.
Regrettably, that was not the case.
Clearly, the consent decree did not mandate the abandonment of all common sense. But, the Forest Service has gone well beyond the requirements of both the court and common sense. Indeed, a memo from one Forest Supervisor warned his employees against aggressively pursuing diversity goals and admitted that doing so was a violation of the law.
Quoting from the document, "free and open discussion have occurred regarding such things as creating or filling a position with an affirmative action candidate or not filling the position at all, or providing significant career enhancing opportunities/education to affirmative action candidates that are not available to other candidates. These types of discussions are violation of the laws and regulations mentioned and should not occur, and the penalties for this type of conduct are severe", unquote.
Mr. Chairman, the Forest Service is admitting that what they are doing is in violation of the law. Furthermore, this is still happening now. In February of this year, under strong criticism because of its quota policies, the Forest Service issued a Merit Promotion plan. The plan stipulates that promotions "shall be based solely on job-related criteria". But a few paragraphs following that statement, the document explains that, quote "Selection procedures will provide for managements right to select or not select from among a group of best qualified candidates", unquote. How can it be a merit plan if it specifically permits the Forest Service to avoid selecting from the pool of best qualified candidates even in an attempt to solve their acknowledged problems with discrimination, the Forest Service once again astablishes unfair hiring and promotion practices. The Forest Service quota policies are inequitable to both the public and our federal employees. They are divisive, morally indefensible, and blatantly unfair.
We cannot combat past discrimination by engaging in yet more discrimination. I commend the committee for addressing this crucial issue."
Yo no matter what your sit. The clock is always running and soon enough you shall return to this.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y19...bum/smr251.jpg
Hang tough, Be safe
Winters but a few 100000 hours away
Holy shit! Winter is 35 years away!?!?Quote:
Originally Posted by skifishbum
Yeti, sorry to hear about your problems man. Women getting jobs that they aren't necessarily qualified for in fields that are dominated by men isn't likely to go away any time soon.
Somehow I almost missed all this drama with your job YetiMan. Let me offer some condolances, and some advice that's sure to be worth what you pay for it.
If you're seasonal, there are almost always other locations and other agencies looking for people with experience, even at this time of year. People take other jobs or don't show up. If things are as crappy as you say, start calling around talking to FMOs and dispatch centers and ask if they have any last-minute vacancies. Don't be afraid to look into BLM or head for another state.
If you're career-conditional, that's a little different, but mostly in that it'll take longer to land another position. Still, you should be looking at the vacancies pretty much daily. Or maybe you can get detailed somewhere - that often takes some connections, but if your boss hates you he might be willing to go that route.
Over the years, I had some shitty summers and bosses, but I either moved on or outlasted them. Lots of times, a dickhead's karma will catch up with them. When everything else fails, patience helps.
I just got off the phone with someone in HR in Region 5 about a couple of positions I applied for on the Plumas. She tells me that the consent decree is no longer in effect and that as of Feb 2005 they no longer are required to give extra consideration to women. One job I applied for had the closing date extended 2 weeks because the applicant pool was not diverse enough ethnically. Things are a bit tougher in HR in R5 right now becaue the Region is about to take over all HR functions from the Forests - nothing will be at ASC until something like 2008.
That's a long-winded way of saying that it ain't going to get any easier to get a job in R5 any time soon.
There are a shit ton of FEO and Dispatch jobs on AVUE right now.......
usajobs.opm.gov shows a BLM 5/7 dispatch position in Susanville, and a buttload of 5/6/7/8/ BLM engine jobs, including some in Bishop. BISHOP, dude.
Search on California and "fire"
a few things:
1) I really don't want to work in dispatch anymore. Dispatch was all about being home with a family I don't have anymore. At the same time I have a problem with a knee and I can't hang with an aggressive PT program, so I need to find the right kind of arrangement. I can do a really good job running an engine, I can't get up every morning and do 6 mile indian runs with a crew. It makes it hard to look at random jobs with people I don't know because you never know what you're going to get. I can do really good work if I'm not having to run every day, or even if it's only 2 or 3 miles a day, but you can't count on that. If I ended up somewhere with some 22 year old PT nazi in charge I would be in trouble and doing more harm to myself than good.
2) I mostly wanted the OLF job to be working with someone who knows me and knows my background and understands my strengths and weaknesses...to go start over with some other fire program who doesn't know me, well, I'm just going to be some random crewmember without a lot of quals and not in very good shape. The engine job in WA was all about starting to build a program from the ground up, which is what my friend is starting into. He and I had done a lot of planning getting into this. Then they hire this girl. :mad:
3) If I get into a bind I'm sure I can find another job somewhere, it's just that with my house here it will be a sacrifice going anywhere but here. The tradeoff would be worth it with working with a good friend on the olympic peninsula, but to go work with some random people in some random place is a gamble I'd rather not take.
Not to argue because I really appreciate all the support. It's just that I'm physically past the stage of my career where I can just show up and kick ass with any fire program and I've learned enough with my seasons in the field combined with dispatch, which is a huge eye-opener to the program-management side of things, that if I end up working for a dumbass I'd go nuts.
It's all horseshit. I'm just going to end up eating bullshit in this fire center all summer again. Either way, trying to be a good person and do the right thing for family/girlfriend/gf's kids and take this job in spatch was one of the worst decisions I've ever made.
There is a 5/6/7 PSE in prevention in CO on Avue right now......some engine jobs in WA, and even on is Island Park and another in JH. Be upfront with the guys there and explain your situation with the knee. There is a new physical program in place right now, and they will find out anyway.
As a side note, apparently Avue is out for bid right now, and will more than likely go offline at the end of the fiscal year (Sept. 30) and nobody is sure what will happen to all the info in your indivivdual profile. So, get those jobs now, as it might be interesting to pick something up this fall/winter.
that's going to be a pain in the ass - I spent a lot of time getting my shit together on AVUE, and it seems to work well enough - facking govvinmint
well....
apparently one more spot might be opening up at OLF. They think they want me for it but aren't sure if it's coming open or not.
It's a seasonal 1039, probably GS4. It's like I should be all stoked about a different job but I applied for lead engine operator, not engine crewmember. I was an engine crewmember in 1997. I kind of have a hard time stepping back in time 9 years. :rolleyes:
:mad: this season has been such bullshit :mad:
Hoping you're all getting some work. I'm sure sherpastyle is committed somewhere.
well, down here in vegas we've been poping fires like crazy and with all the severity resources comming in, word on the street is that LVICC is looking to pick up a few detailers to work in dispatch on the same severity ticket. If your boss cant handle you , maybe see about a 14-28 day vacation in vegas. Hotel is paid for and per deim is $65 per day.
just a thought, MrPowder
PRAY FOR SNOW
........
Socal (region 5) is heating up.. nothing huge, but tons of small stuff going.(although the fire near Big Bear last week got to about 350 acres) 11 starts along the I-5 corridor near the grapevine in the last 2 days. :rolleyes: As I type we have about a 20 acre fire going 5 miles east of me on the Angeles.. vehicle over the cliff at 2 am and it exploded. :eek:
Are you actually serious about getting a job, or would you rather bitch about it on the Internet? Get on Avue and start applying for for everything on there. There are all kinds of 13/13 jobs in dispatch, engines, handcrews, prevention.....a couple are career ladder as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by YetiMan
You're not the only person who has experienced a tough time getting where you want to be. I've worked in 4 different regions and been bent over and taken it every which way you can along the way. Almost everybody I know who works for the Dept. of Ag or the DOI has hit some large bumps along the way. Shit happens. You can't change the way the agency works though, so you have to either accept it and make the best of it, or leave. On a daily basis you will see people who have an appointment and simply don't contribute anything positive to the program. Others are still seasonals and honestly deserve something better. It certainely is not a perfect place to work, but at the end of the day if you can maintain a certain degree of seperation, and not get caught up in all the bullshit, it pays the bills and you get to be outside. More importantly though, it allows you to have some time off during the winter....
Here here.. I have been on for 4 years.. still trying to get permanent..(not unusual) but I'm not in fire, I'm in Recreation.. I have retained my level 2 fire status for the last 2 years, but only got called once last year to go due security in New Orleans. This year might be different as the Angeles (and other areas in region 5) as we have about 60% capacity due to extreme cuts this year to fire.
I'll probably take the 1039 if it comes up. Still waiting to hear. I hate the idea of giving up a permanent just to get back into the field but that's the deal. The OLF engines got out on a few little local fires the other day and Houston says they had no idea what to do. There was an engine boss ordering 2 crews for a 1/4 acre fire with no potential. :nonono2:
As for applying to everything out there, I don't do that anymore because I'm not moving to Socorro NM or Florida or anywhere that I don't know the people or the place. Sorry, been around too long to consider going to work for a program I don't know. Too many fucktards out there. If you'd have read what I posted you'd have seen that.
If anybody knows an agency-employed ATGS that could take a 14 day to salt lake have them contact us. We're having a hard time finding one for severity, and our platform is just sitting here with nobody to staff it. Northern Utah is in the egb mob guide.
we've had about 35 incidents this w/e.
I would be stoked if I was actually on one of them.
Getting busy around utarrr.
still think I might get the olympic deal done.
had a fire today under the sunrise lift at solitude.
:yourock:
Saw some guys in town with wasatch cache shirts on, any maggots out in this neck of the woods?
that'll be E406 from Pleasant Grove on the Uinta.
Not sure if any of them are mags.
Game on in Montana. After 34 consecutive days at above normal temps, we are sitting in a tinderbox. This pic was taken about 1 hour after this fire started. I saw the small plume, right after it started and then it grew about 200 acres in 1 hour....strong winds. Its about 6 miles from my house. The flame front(s) are glowing tough tonight.
http://tetongravity.com/usergallerie...0405/fire2.jpg
Further south in the Bitterroots (down by Victor), this little puppy is raging:
http://tetongravity.com/usergallerie...5/fire%7E0.jpg
And finally a nice sunset shot from my frontyard:
http://tetongravity.com/usergallerie...cenics_001.jpg
I IA'd a nice little fire at 2 am the other night. Pumped out 800 feet of 1.5" up one steep mutha of a hill. They ended up catching it the next day.
If you are a crew, pack your bags cuz there's a good chance you will be heading this way soon.
That one up Woodchuck looked like it was on a serious tear last night. The one on Gash (by Victor) seems to be somewhat under control, though.
One thunderstorm and it will be seriously game on.
OK, who's the hard-core that was up here skiin' these patches that hit some rocks causing sparks to light up these 27,500+ acres in Wy?
Attachment 14768
Montana's Senator Burns is an asshole:
http://billingsgazette.net/articles/...l/45-burns.txt
Burns criticizes firefighters, says they didn't heed ranchers
By JENNIFER McKEE
Gazette State Bureau
HELENA - Republican Sen. Conrad Burns chastised a group of firefighters over the weekend for doing a "poor job" dousing a 92,000-acre blaze near Billings, a state report shows.
Burns and the firefighters - members of the Augusta Hot Shots from the George Washington and Jefferson National Forest in Virginia -were at Billings Logan International Airport awaiting flights, according to Burns and Forest Service representatives.
Burns approached the firefighters and told them they had "done a poor job" and "should have listened to the ranchers," according to a report prepared by Paula Rosenthal, a state Department of Natural Resources and Conservation employee who was sent to the airport to speak with the senator.
Rosenthal wrote in her report that she received word of an "altercation" between Burns and the Hot Shot crew. The crew had been in Montana working on the Bundy Railroad fire near Worden.
The 92,000-acre timber, grass and sagebrush fire was contained on July 19, and the 368 people who came to fight it began dispersing a few days later.
Burns had been in Billings to commemorate the new interpretive center at Pompeys Pillar, the sandstone bluff near the Yellowstone River where explorer William Clark scratched his signature while on the Lewis and Clark Expedition.
Burns had also met with local ranchers affected by the blaze.
Matt Mackowiak, a Burns spokesman, said he didn't think Burns met with any of the fire bosses handling the fire.
By the time Rosenthal reached the airport, the interaction had ended. Burns told her he was concerned that fires are run out of the National Interagency Fire Center, in Boise, Idaho, which he called "ridiculous."
"The government needs to listen to these ranchers," the report quotes Burns as saying.
Mary Sexton, director of the state Department of Natural Resources and Conservation, said in an interview that the National Interagency Fire Center does not run individual fires but is the national hub for fire information and available resources. Beneath the Boise center are several regional dispatch centers, including one for the northern Rocky Mountain area in Missoula. Individual fires are managed by the fire bosses on the ground, Sexton said.
Burns also said he was concerned that fire bosses don't let ranchers fight fire on their own land. Rosenthal wrote in her report that she told the senator that "private citizens were integral to our success, as were (volunteer fire departments), county governments" and others.
Sexton said fire teams - the groups of national and local fire experts who come to manage and fight large fires - cannot tell private landowners what to do. They cannot force them to evacuate or prevent them from fighting fire on their own land. However, Sexton said fire bosses prefer to know where all people working on a fire are - including landowners - and may ask landowners not to help in the interest of safety.
Burns also said he had heard from one rancher that fire crews on the Bundy Railroad fire put a strip of fire retardant on the edge of Bureau of Land Management federal land, implying the fire crews were more interested in protecting public land than private.
"The toughest part of the conversation was the point where the senator was critical of a firefighter sitting across from us in the gate area," Rosenthal's report reads. "I offered to the senator that our firefighters make around $8 to $12 an hour and time-and-a-half for overtime. He seemed a bit surprised that it wasn't higher."
Rosenthal's report said she would take Burns' concerns back to agency officials, and Burns thanked her for taking the time to listen to him.
Dan Jerome, a spokesman for the U.S. Forest Service in the agency's Washington, D.C., office, said the agency has heard from Burns regarding his concerns.
"Essentially, the senator had some issues with a fire and we heard those," Jerome said. "He talked to the crew about those. Generally, the place to talk about them is with the Forest Service. Meanwhile, the crew is out fighting fire, and we're proud of the work they do."
Jerome said the agency is working on addressing Burns' concerns.
Mackowiak said Burns has been hearing from Montanans affected by wildfire for weeks.
"As a result, he very responsibly reaches out to policymakers in Washington to make sure that all coordination is being done in the best and most reasonable manner," he said.
Burns talked to Undersecretary of Agriculture Mark Rey about his concerns, Mackowiak said, and Rey has since personally called the ranchers with whom Burns spoke. The Forest Service is part of the U.S. Department of Agriculture.
Burns wants to make sure that fire policy is "adequate and adaptive," Mackowiak said, and the senator is pushing for emergency assistance for ranchers and landowners affected by the blazes.
What a moron. I can't believe that someone could be that stupid to confront someone that works that hard and has no say in the way fire are managed. That was like throwing shit in those guys faces. I am surprise that one of those shots didn't cock back and break his face.
On another note, here is a pretty cool time lapse of a fire in CA - http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/9590923/detail.html
YeeHaw. Another one near Elko, saw this from the hotel (pic from elkodaily.com)
Huh. Sad that the fact that Conrad was a total and complete douchenozzle to a firefighter doesn't surprise me in the least.
What a fucktard. I hope that asshat enjoys his last few months in office.
In other news, the Gash fire is currently burning out some damn fine ski terrain. Burn, baby, burn!!!!:FIREdevil :FIREdevil :FIREdevil
Red Flag warnings and dry lightning forecast for Nevada this weekend. A friend of mine there says it reminds him of the 99 season - the one where NV burned about 1 million acres in two days. Hang on.Quote:
Originally Posted by P_McPoser
That would be the year that I learned how evil NV really is. I spent countless months wandering the desert, chasing cheatgrass fires. Also a fair amount of time was spent staging in such shitholes as Elko and Carson City.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper
On standby for the Okanagon right now - it's tearing up there. PNW topping the sit report las two days after a long lull. We're fairly tight on letting anyone go except IA right now - 0.04" precip since June 9.
Heh. Tell me about it - I've spent way too much time there over the years. Though the best assignment was a 6 week detail as ATGS in a Commander. Nevada's really pretty nice if you stay above 9000 ft. But then, I've fought fire near Rosebud and Browning MT, and those aren't my idea of heaven. Every state has its ill moments.Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakofSnow
Hey, those are the garden spots. Try Battle Mountain or Caliente for some quality NV time.Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakofSnow
National Preparedness Level - 5.
Are you one of the "Stepping Up" BB guys? I've got that book - didn't realize there were firefighters involved.
I just did 20 supply orders! in Ross! and I'm on hold with a bus company!
my will to live is waning. seriously. I actually found that phrase somewhere in my mind today..."the will to live"...yes, not too strong right now.
on the plus side the word is that the previously mentioned "diversity" assistant at OLF is declining the job and they're working on filling me from the earlier cert. I bet they'll re-fly and re-fill with some other diversity candidate, but there's always hope.
I also applied for a job in Ogden, even though ogden makes me vomit a little into my mouth.
heh...somebody just named one of their fires the
wait for it
Dixon Hole!
priceless.
Yep, season's crankin. We just got back from a 2 week tour of MT. 7 fires in 14 days. It was a pretty crazy roll. We did a little of everything from cutting hotline, to structure triage, to runnin' an gunnin' burnouts, to urban-interface IAs, to mop up. It seemed like 4 rolls in one. I didn't take many pictures cause I was running squadie most of the time and most of the fires that were worth taking pictures of were way too active to pull out the camera. I'll try to get some pictures up at some point.
When we heard about Burns' run in with Augusta we were debating how our crew would have reacted. It would have been interesting. Depending who got to him first he either would have been tied up on the floor by one of the 3 all-american wrestlers on our crew with the other 19 of us circled around him yelling "arm bar" or he would have been whimpering in the corner after the verbal lashing he would have received from the more intellectually inclined members of the crew. They really need to make a reality TV show about a shot crew. It'd be hard to find a network that would broadcast it though...maybe HBO.
Stay safe out there. It's gonna be a long season!
Maybe we'll meet in the urban interface, where i'll proceed to roll you with the deck gun.Quote:
Originally Posted by YetiMan
;)
Make sure you get some silvex in my eyes fartknocker. :fmicon:Quote:
Originally Posted by flykdog