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I've always blamed the Bush administration. Personally I think Bush is a puppet. The real power in this administration are people like Cheney, Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld. Bush is simply a rich daddy's boy (how he got into Yale) who doesn't know his ass from his face. He's an embearassing statesman and is mocked by diplomats all over the world for his lack of understanding of all things political. He's a simple man with a simple mind who should not be head of state.
I kinda agree with milkman here, I actually even feel a little sorry for George W. You can tell watching and listening to him that he believes with all his heart that he is doing the right thing for the people of the US and the rest of the world. Unfortunately, he's not smart enough to realize that a lot of the people close to him are using his power for their own gains. It's pretty easy to sit and hash this out over the internet with hindsight to guide us, but I don't think the whole situation was/is that easy to figure out for a guy like dubya because of the people "guiding" him. As quite a few people have pointed out, what's really scary is the other stuff that his gov't is pushing through while everyones eyes are on Iraq.
Milk, print this out and carry it with you at all times:
What To Say If:
Saddam refuses to co-operate with his interrogators.
The arrest of this man is a sideshow. He clearly knows nothing about the current state of resistance and has played no role in the planning of insurgency. His trial will simply be an exercise in vengeance with no constructive outcome for Iraq.
Saddam sings like a canary, identifying the perpetrators of insurgency.
Saddam is obviously being tortured by his American captors. Or else, they are lying about his testimony and justifying their own persecution of innocent Iraqis on the basis of his alleged "confession". (Note to broadcasters: these hypotheses need not be stated baldly. They can simply be hinted at or implied by leading questions and incredulous facial expressions.)
Saddam admits to having had weapons of mass destruction all along and gives a detailed account of a) where they can be found, b) how and when he destroyed them.
If a) then switch the focus immediately to the role that America (with particular reference to Donald Rumsfeld personally) played in the past in allowing Saddam to develop these arms. Avoid if possible any tactless references to the much more recent contributions of our European partners in building Saddam's armoury. If b), float the idea that Saddam is lying - simply telling his captors what it would suit their political purposes to hear, in the hopes of cutting a deal for himself.
If Saddam's trial is conducted by Iraq without outside interference.
This is nothing more than a kangaroo court: a lynch mob bent on tribal vendetta, licensed and abetted by America, which has, typically, waged an irresponsible war and then walked away, washing its hands of the consequences.
If Saddam's trial is conducted under American and British supervision.
This makes a mockery of the hope that Iraq is becoming a self-determining democracy. It is now nothing more than a neo-colonial satellite of American imperialism. The United States has, typically, set up a puppet government in Iraq in order to establish control over the region.
If Saddam's trial, by whatever agency, produces previously unknown evidence of crimes against his own people that is so horrific that it shames those who resisted his forcible removal.
No one (certainly not you) ever said they thought Saddam was a hero, or that they wanted him restored to power. They just wanted international law to be permitted to take its own good time to decide how and when he should be stopped.
If the arrest, trial and possible execution of Saddam results in a free and democratic Iraq.
This is irrelevant to the War on Terror. Iraq had no links with al-Qa'eda. Bush and Blair will never defeat terrorism until they catch Osama bin Laden.
.
Sometimes you have to read in-between the lines.
Saddam kicked out weapons inspectors...If OR if not he had WMD's, what a dumb fucking move! What'd he expect??! That's an admission of guilt right there. They had plenty of time to hide that shit, but there was a greater goal at hand here anyhow. If you can't read in-between the lines, you've been left out in the cold, and you simply don't understand.
Everyone bangs on Bush for being "stupid". Frankly, it's impossible to be elected Governor, and then President, if you are "stupid".
My biggest question to the left is: What are you going to do when and IF WMD's ARE found??!! Start inventing conspiracy theories that the US Military planted them there to save face? Give me a break, your arguement last week was "we haven't even found Osama or Saddam"....pulease..
The GOTCHA thread was much better than this one, I think we boiled everything down to whether Bush is true to his morals, and/or whether he's been used by Cheney and company for financial gain. Bush is much more intelligent than he's given credit for, he's just not a good actor like those in the past. I'd rather have an honest christian in office than a good actor.
Perhaps you're forgetting that he's the son of an oil tycoon!Quote:
[i]...Maybe because he made a few slip-ups in his speeches. Big woop. He want to Yale, and I don't care if he got C's, he still went there... [/B]
Mr Gyptian:
Check out this post iraq war quiz and see how you do:
http://www.zmag.org/shalomquizi.htm
For the record, I'm no lover of Saddam. The Iraqi people will be better off without him. I really hope the US doen't fuk this up, but given it's track record, it probably will. If the US really did this because of WMD and helping the Iraqi people by disposing of a ruthless dictator, there are a lot of other countries the US should be invading soon. Frankly, the US has a MUCH better track record in creating dictators (the Shah of Iran, Somoza of Nicaragua, Pinochet of Chile to name a few) than they do disposing of them.
Current events would suggest otherwise.Quote:
Originally posted by Blurred Elevens
Everyone bangs on Bush for being "stupid". Frankly, it's impossible to be elected Governor, and then President, if you are "stupid".
Dipstick will now lead us all in the singing of "Stand By Your Man".Quote:
Originally posted by dipstik
Never realized we had so many leftist types here :D ;)
Look, the main problem with Americans is that they blame the president for EVERYTHING. If they dont have a job, its the presidents fault, if they dont have enough money, its the presidents fault, if their kid is stupid, its the presidents fault. The president is just a poster boy for the American people. Who we should all really be mad at is Congress, for they are the ones that make the real decisions. They have the power to pass bills into laws, even without the presidents approval. They have the power of the purse, so if they didn't like this war, they didn't have to fund it in the first place. Most importantly, they have the power to impeach the president if they dont like what he is doing. The president has hundreds of people helping him out and numerous advisors that know way, WAY more about what is going on than anyone else, and you can't argue that. He didn't just wake up one day and decide to go to war. You can't do that in our country, thats what makes it so great. He has to pass it through congress first. I haven't seen one person blame George Allen, or Craig Thomas for this mess. You know why? Because nobody knows who the fuck they are! But you know what? They voted to pass the bill to let Bush go to war. So shouldn't we be mad at them? I guess not, but maybe I'm just misinformed, after all I do watch the same news as you :rolleyes:
What gets me heated is that everyone is so quick to jump down Bush's throat. Everyone assumes he's stupid, but they don't know why. Maybe because he made a few slip-ups in his speeches. Big woop. He want to Yale, and I don't care if he got C's, he still went there. I see a lot of people here saying that they supported the war at first, but now they dont. Well what the hell is that? Bush supported the war at first, and now maybe he realized that it was a bad idea, but he can't just back out of it. The critics would have a field day. We can't just back out of Iraq now either, we have to stay in there until the job is done. Thats what anyone with a backbone would do. If were going to have to be in there, it would make sense that Bush stands by his cause until it's over.
If Bush went on TV and said, "All Americans will now get gas at twenty five cents a gallon, at least $80 billion dollars worth," I bet the chorus would be deafening. Instead the lyrics are more like "Cheney's the man...He's gonna take your money...Even if you don't understaaaaaaaaand...Cheeeeneeeys yooooou'rrrre maaaaan"Quote:
Originally posted by irul&ublo
Dipstick will now lead us all in the singing of "Stand By Your Man".
Even though I earlier said I'm not sure of the motives for this war, I do agree with dipstik. If not Bush, or not the war argument, there would be another president with another argument against him. He has definitely backed everything he said which is respectable.
Prior to now there were two arguments, finding Saddam and finding WMD. Now that Saddam has been found, what's going to happen if WMD are found, then what are people going to attack.
YOUR WRONG!!! ONLY MY OPINION IS RIGHT!!! EVERYONE WHO HAS A DIFERENT OPINION FROM ME IS STUPID!!! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally posted by irul&ublo
Dipstick will now lead us all in the singing of "Stand By Your Man".
look guy, this is a simple debate between the left and the right. I'm not personally attacking anyone, just expressing my views. I know my opinions wont change yours, and yours def. wont change mine, so theres no need to be a dick. If your best defense is that some stupid comment like "bush is stupid and hes dumb and he is very unsmart" than you are not really progressing the debate at all. Were just having a good healthy argument, and if you can't contribute something half way intelligent than don't bother saying anything at all.
It's just for fun, even though I completley and 100% disagree with milkman, he's probably still a sick skier and thats all that I care about.
this goes for everyone else making unbacked opinions.
Consider whether or not the process is important.
America is the best country in the world because of our processes, because we assume innocent until proven guilty, because we believe that everyone should get a chance, because we believe in separation of Church and State.
I won't drone on about GW. But we, as Americans, should consider whether he is upholding our traditions of due process.
It doesn't matter whether the WMDs are found. What matters is that no one had any substantive evidence that they existed at the time of the invasion of Iraq.
If, as Americans, we agree that it doesn't matter, then I will stand up to disagree.
Kind of touching on what you were talking about before splat, does anyone else wonder why the price of gasoline has basically not increased at all in the last 30 years. Surely it has to do with the fact that if gas were 4-5 bucks a gallon like in Europe that we would all end up having to sell all our SUVs and buy Geo Metros, then the Big 3 Motor Co's wouldn't make any money because they make most of their money selling trucks and the Oil companies wouldn't make any money sellling gas.Quote:
Originally posted by splat
If Bush went on TV and said, "All Americans will now get gas at twenty five cents a gallon, at least $80 billion dollars worth," I bet the chorus would be deafening. Instead the lyrics are more like "Cheney's the man...He's gonna take your money...Even if you don't understaaaaaaaaand...Cheeeeneeeys yooooou'rrrre maaaaan"
Back this summer when gas was around 2-2.50 dollars a gallon here, I was watching a news segment and they were interviewing people at the gas pumps and there are MANY suv's at the pumps here, the number one comment was "Gee I should have bought something else, this is costing me 80 dollars a pop" But now that gas prices are down again, the SUV's are flying off the lots and we're all worse off for it.
I love mine, loved it this summer when gas prices were high. I commute 90 miles in a day to work and back, pay out the ass for it, but I love it.Quote:
Originally posted by Ireallyliketoski
Kind of touching on what you were talking about before splat, does anyone else wonder why the price of gasoline has basically not increased at all in the last 30 years. Surely it has to do with the fact that if gas were 4-5 bucks a gallon like in Europe that we would all end up having to sell all our SUVs and buy Geo Metros, then the Big 3 Motor Co's wouldn't make any money because they make most of their money selling trucks and the Oil companies wouldn't make any money sellling gas.
Back this summer when gas was around 2-2.50 dollars a gallon here, I was watching a news segment and they were interviewing people at the gas pumps and there are MANY suv's at the pumps here, the number one comment was "Gee I should have bought something else, this is costing me 80 dollars a pop" But now that gas prices are down again, the SUV's are flying off the lots and we're all worse off for it.
The President is only a symptom.
We are the disease if we are negligent of our commitment to the underlying principles of America.
Yep, everyone loves their SUV's.Quote:
Originally posted by Telephil
I love mine, loved it this summer when gas prices were high. I commute 90 miles in a day to work and back, pay out the ass for it, but I love it.
Hans Blix?Quote:
Originally posted by CantDog
There was an interesting segment on NPR yesterday, an interview with Max somethingorother, the head weapons inspector for the UN.
It's fun to say his name with weird emphasis and accents.
Innocent until proven guilt??? That's the biggest crock of shit ever fed to us. If there's a warrant for you, you go to jail. Just like Kobe. (please don't sideline this thread) He was in jail before they had even decided to "try him". You're guilty until proven innocent.Quote:
Originally posted by Buster Highmen
Consider whether or not the process is important.
America is the best country in the world because of our processes, because we assume innocent until proven guilty, because we believe that everyone should get a chance, because we believe in separation of Church and State.
I won't drone on about GW. But we, as Americans, should consider whether he is upholding our traditions of due process.
It doesn't matter whether the WMDs are found. What matters is that no one had any substantive evidence that they existed at the time of the invasion of Iraq.
If, as Americans, we agree that it doesn't matter, then I will stand up to disagree.
Beyond all this, The Patriot Act is the biggest violation of our rights ever. Fuckers can come into your house while your gone, look through all your shit, and then leave not telling you were there...LEGALLY!!! Why in the fuck aren't people standing up to stop that shit??!! How is this any different than tactics used by the Gestapo??
GRRRRR!!!:mad:
What may be even more important is the fact that the administration had reliable information that WMDs were not in Iraq, but chose to use other intelligence in order to 'sell' the war.Quote:
Originally posted by Buster Highmen
It doesn't matter whether the WMDs are found. What matters is that no one had any substantive evidence that they existed at the time of the invasion of Iraq.
And the right was upset that Clinton lied over a blow-job.
I guess we can agree to disagree. I do enjoy hearing other points of view, but still disagree with the way you perceive the Iraq situation. Skiing is why we're all here though. Intelligent political discussion is fun as well as long as it's backed up by some facts.Quote:
Originally posted by dipstik
[
It's just for fun, even though I completley and 100% disagree with milkman, he's probably still a sick skier and thats all that I care about.
[/B]
Innocent until proven guilty is not a crock of shit. It's one of the cornerstones of America. Don't forget that GW signed The Patriot Act, even though there was bipartisan support.Quote:
Originally posted by Blurred Elevens
Innocent until proven guilt??? That's the biggest crock of shit ever fed to us. If there's a warrant for you, you go to jail. Just like Kobe. (please don't sideline this thread) He was in jail before they had even decided to "try him". You're guilty until proven innocent.
Beyond all this, The Patriot Act is the biggest violation of our rights ever. Fuckers can come into your house while your gone, look through all your shit, and then leave not telling you were there...LEGALLY!!! Why in the fuck aren't people standing up to stop that shit??!! How is this any different than tactics used by the Gestapo??
GRRRRR!!!:mad:
THe issue of the Patriot Act is a perfect example of why we've got to stop being such reductionist idiots and vote the people who support the Patriot Act out of office. That includes Cantwell, Murray and Bush.
I consider myself neither right nor left, but I will vote against Bush because he is selling America to the highest bidder. Right now, Clark is my pick.
Unfortunately, in the 23 years since I came of age, I have never once backed the candidate who won. My vote may be the kiss of death.
Prove it Dumbfuck. Also please include proof of the shooter on the grassy knoll.........Jackoff.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
What may be even more important is the fact that the administration had reliable information that WMDs were not in Iraq, but chose to use other intelligence in order to 'sell' the war.
And the right was upset that Clinton lied over a blow-job.
Hey, dipshit, just because you're not smart enough to read anything aside from USA Today doesn't mean I need to keep you informed.
You are a stupid pile of moronic donkey shit.
Even in Europe, you can get an SUV that gets 40-60 mpg. Also, in 1973, people freaked when gas hit $0.28 a gallon after the Arabs nationalized American oil assets and the Arab Oil Embargo went into effect against the US. My overwhelming concern here, and it dovetails into what Buster said, is that when corporations lobby politicians to act against the best intrests of Americans and only in the best interests of corporate profits, we will eventually see corporations do away with due process, Constitutional rights, fair elections and anything else that threatens their deathgrip on Americans' pursestrings. In essence, politicians already are corporate officers waving the banner of being elected officials under the guise of "freedom". Because elections are bought, not won. The minute I heard GW had like $200 million in his campaign fund, before he had even announced his candidacy, I knew what the outcome would be.Quote:
Originally posted by Ireallyliketoski
Kind of touching on what you were talking about before splat, does anyone else wonder why the price of gasoline has basically not increased at all in the last 30 years. Surely it has to do with the fact that if gas were 4-5 bucks a gallon like in Europe that we would all end up having to sell all our SUVs and buy Geo Metros, then the Big 3 Motor Co's wouldn't make any money because they make most of their money selling trucks and the Oil companies wouldn't make any money sellling gas.
Back this summer when gas was around 2-2.50 dollars a gallon here, I was watching a news segment and they were interviewing people at the gas pumps and there are MANY suv's at the pumps here, the number one comment was "Gee I should have bought something else, this is costing me 80 dollars a pop" But now that gas prices are down again, the SUV's are flying off the lots and we're all worse off for it.
First of all, I'm not a knee-jerk Bush supporter. I can still like the guy even if I don't agree with everything he does. (Knee-jerk- meaning I don't agree with everything a politician says/does without knowing the facts, unlike alot of the kneejerk liberals represented here) I don't agree with any politician that had a part in the Patriot Act. I do take into account though the seriousness of 9-11, and the wave of emotion that followed those circumstances. Everybody was for anything that might prevent a tragedy like that from ever occuring again, and throwing common sense out the window.Quote:
Originally posted by Buster Highmen
Innocent until proven guilty is not a crock of shit. It's one of the cornerstones of America. Don't forget that GW signed The Patriot Act, even though there was bipartisan support.
THe issue of the Patriot Act is a perfect example of why we've got to stop being such reductionist idiots and vote the people who support the Patriot Act out of office. That includes Cantwell, Murray and Bush.
If innocent before guilty is a cornerstone, than that corner fell off a LONG time ago. Alledged(sp?) is the most used word in the courts today. You go to jail for when not proven guilty, and if your found guilty, you just stay there. If found innocent, you are released, but were jailed for no reason in the first place. It's a crock.
You know, it's assholes like you that complain about the toothpick in my eye, disregarding the plank in yours.Quote:
Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
Hey, dipshit, just because you're not smart enough to read anything aside from USA Today doesn't mean I need to keep you informed.
You are a stupid pile of moronic donkey shit.
What you don't realise is that the media is LIBERAL now days jackoff. That means they support YOUR point of view. You keeping ME informed? With what? Your proof that the US knew WMD's were NOT in Iraq? Where'd you score that scoop Einstein? :rolleyes:
It's people like you that THINK they know what the fuck they're talking about when they don't that are really scary. Go read the GOTCHA thread before criticising me with your brainwashed rhetoric from the left, douchebag.:o
hahahahaQuote:
Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
Hey, dipshit, just because you're not smart enough to read anything aside from USA Today doesn't mean I need to keep you informed.
prove it jerkoff jackoff moron jong!
Just wondering. Does it snow in Iraq? Did Saddam ski?(Wait,no he probably rode;) ). Does GW ski?
Glad you could make it!Quote:
Originally posted by tuffy109
hahahaha
prove it jerkoff jackoff moron jong!
We've been waiting for the circle-jerk reinforcements!
What took you so long, were you busy making up useless facts on some other website?
It's really great to see 2 men in love, welcome back Tuffy!
I hesitate to add to one of these right v. left political threads but...Quote:
Originally posted by Blurred Elevens
Saddam kicked out weapons inspectors...If OR if not he had WMD's, what a dumb fucking move! What'd he expect??! That's an admission of guilt right there.
I initially thought Saddam had WMDs - not because Dubya said so, but because of Saddam's actions. Like Blurred, I thought that he must have them if he's kicking inspectors out of the country, placing all these restrictions on them, etc. Then, several months ago, I heard a pretty convincing argument that Saddam didn't have WMD's at the time we invaded. It was important for Saddam to maintain his prestige as a tough guy in the Arab world, and intimidate his neighbors and possessing WMDs was a great way to do this. But he also had to deal with the UN resolutions and U.S. scrutiny to eliminate all WMDs. So, he walked a fine line, bluffing and dodging to make it appear that he might have WMDs, when in fact all of them had been destroyed. He never thought the U.S. would invade - and that miscalculation cost him everything. And I believe that our intelligence agencies knew this.
I think that if Iraq in fact had WMDs, we would have found something by now.
Leaving aside the debate on whether this Iraq adventure is ultimately good or bad for the U.S., I believe the U.S. government knowingly misled the American people when they claimed Iraq had WMDs.
I can't because the media is owned by liberal brainwashers, like Rupert Murdoch at Fox, and General Electric over at NBC. Real liberal, anti-establishment group at GE.Quote:
Originally posted by tuffy109
hahahaha
prove it jerkoff jackoff moron jong!
Agreed that the Patriot Act is the biggest threat to Civil Liberties since the Tea Act of 1768.Quote:
Originally posted by Blurred Elevens
First of all, I'm not a knee-jerk Bush supporter. I can still like the guy even if I don't agree with everything he does. (Knee-jerk- meaning I don't agree with everything a politician says/does without knowing the facts, unlike alot of the kneejerk liberals represented here) I don't agree with any politician that had a part in the Patriot Act. I do take into account though the seriousness of 9-11, and the wave of emotion that followed those circumstances. Everybody was for anything that might prevent a tragedy like that from ever occuring again, and throwing common sense out the window.
If innocent before guilty is a cornerstone, than that corner fell off a LONG time ago. Alledged(sp?) is the most used word in the courts today. You go to jail for when not proven guilty, and if your found guilty, you just stay there. If found innocent, you are released, but were jailed for no reason in the first place. It's a crock.
Agreed that the corporate interests in government are ruining this country, but politics has always been about money. That seems to me to be more of the same.
Disagree with the death of innocent before proven guilty, that is still alive and well. If you are charged with a crime, there is usually good reason, but you are not convicted. First, they will detain you, and then you can be released for the hearing. But you are innocent until proven guilty in this country, just because they held you in a cell over night does not mean you are guilty. It's all about due process, the problem is that due process is becomes a little hazy if you are perceived as a threat to national security, then I'm pretty sure that they can shoot you on spot.
This thread has become an amalgamation of a juggernaut of opinions. Debate is good, sharpens the mind.
Haha. CNN, MSNBC and FOX news are Liberal? That's insane buddy boy. Where do you actually get your facts from? I'm willing to read some of your sources.Quote:
Originally posted by Blurred Elevens
You know, it's assholes like you that complain about the toothpick in my eye, disregarding the plank in yours.
What you don't realise is that the media is LIBERAL now days jackoff. That means they support YOUR point of view. You keeping ME informed? With what? Your proof that the US knew WMD's were NOT in Iraq? Where'd you score that scoop Einstein? :rolleyes:
It's people like you that THINK they know what the fuck they're talking about when they don't that are really scary. Go read the GOTCHA thread before criticising me with your brainwashed rhetoric from the left, douchebag.:o
Stop making passes at Tuffy. Doesn't your institution have any man-love for you to find?Quote:
Originally posted by Blurred Elevens
It's really great to see 2 men in love, welcome back Tuffy!
That brings up another interesting point, if they did know, and i'm not agreeing either way here, but if they did know that Iraq had no weapons, than what was the cause of our invasion? (Please don't say oil.) It's hard to believe that they would do it for the good of the people, so if they knew that there were no WMD's what was the reason for invading?Quote:
Originally posted by Chronic
I believe the U.S. government knowingly misled the American people when they claimed Iraq had WMDs.
/ominous music
Do you always resort to sarcasm and name-calling when you've run out of questions and foundations for your OPINIONS? Still waiting on that proof of the US KNOWING there were no WMD's.Quote:
Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
I can't because the media is owned by liberal brainwashers, like Rupert Murdoch at Fox, and General Electric over at NBC. Real liberal, anti-establishment group at GE.
Another case in point.
Quote:
Stop making passes at Tuffy. Doesn't your institution have any man-love for you to find?
Chronic-Saddam had a VERY long time to move (or destroy) any WMD's out of the country before we came in. I think he was smart enought to know that the US would look much worse if we invaded and found no WMD's, making Saddam a martyr, which is how the left percieves Iraq now.....hmmmmm.
even with the ignore thing on, the idiocy still makes it through.Quote:
Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
Stop making passes at Tuffy. Doesn't your institution have any man-love for you to find?
bill o'reilly is one liberal mofo, i'll give him that.
do we know what brett does for a living?
i'm off to make up useless facts on some other website.
Blurred, I hear what you're saying, but I doubt that Saddam would willingly give up his wealth and power (and life?) just to make the U.S. look bad. I also doubt that he would send WMDs out of his control to another country. And if he did hide 'em, I think that with all the effort we've spent looking for the WMDs, and all the high-ranking Iraqis we've "interviewed" that we would have at least found a trace of WMDs by now. I think a more reasonable explanation is that he didn't have WMDs and was bluffing. I will gladly eat my words if we find WMDs.
Dipstik - I don't know why we invaded, but I suspect that there were multiple factors: oil, revenge, the belief that the U.S. needed to take some sort of action in the "war on terror", and the neo-con belief that a democratic Saddam-free Iraq would stabilize the entire region and promote U.S. security. And I just want to say that I love your avatar.