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The collection of Hazard and Skull 'n Crossbones and YOU COULD DIE signs is effective, but will never fly aesthetically on the shoulder of one of CO's most heavily travelled roads.
Even the most prettiest sign will, amazingly, be a red tape nightmare.
Trying is better than not trying.
Ever the optimist.
But IRLTS, good point...
Still, a tangible reminder to bring the gear would be nice somehow...
Hmm. I'm thinking a wildcat sign might be the better way to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornholio
If/When it's removed notify the local news station - they may give you more publicity than you could hope for otherwise. Especially given recent events.
So here's the current proposal then:
You are in deadly avalanche terrain.
If you proceed beyond this point, you are taking a life-threatening risk which may affect others as well as yourself.
** people have died here in avalanche-related accidents since 19**.
Dangerous avalanches can occur with minimal snow cover - ALWAYS put safety first.
Now that's some smart thinking. I like it. Of course, this thread may need to self-destruct at some point...but keep talking for now...Quote:
Originally Posted by cj001f
Hmm. I do like *some* mention of the necessity of the gear, no?
You are in deadly avalanche terrain.
If you proceed beyond this point, you are taking a life-threatening risk that adds to the hazard of those around you.
Always travel with a partner, rescue equipment, and the knowledge to use it.
** people have died here in avalanche-related accidents since 19**.
Dangerous avalanches can occur with minimal snow cover - ALWAYS put safety first.
We have these signs everywhere. 2 folks died last year, regardless, but there's no telling how many people were a bit more cautious because of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
These "Avie Warning" signs should go up statewide - all over, everywhere. For example: Berthoud, Independence, Loveland, Vail, all road accessed passes with "killer" terrain ...
A consistent, state funded program to warn skiers that miscalculations and wrecklesness can prove deadly - public service announcements showing the families and friends that are left behind ...
I like: YOU CAN DIE, skull/crossbone ... pretty clear, Danger ahead
You are in deadly avalanche terrain.
If you proceed beyond this point, you are taking a life-threatening risk which may affect others as well as yourself.
** people have died here in avalanche-related accidents since 19**.
Dangerous avalanches can occur with minimal snow cover - ALWAYS put safety first.
Do you have the right Training, Team, and Tools?
How bout after the number that have died, add "Remember other CO pass locations can be equally as dangerous or more so.
What do yours say?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reverend Floater
Any mention of BC gear?
Does it matter?
^Gat.^Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
But it's less... condescending? Which is good.
How about: "Do you have your rescue gear?"
keep it moving forward, keep the suggestions coming, tap it while it's ripe and it still hurts...
I really have to work now.
EDIT: Corn, want to empasize avoidance, training, etc before gear somehow? Gotta run...
Joey Gaper, " I've got my cell phone... let's go."Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornholio
I noticed new avy awareness signs at the pullout at Second Creek a few weeks ago. Dunno where else they are posted, but they are pretty well done. Anyone driving over the Pass in the next day or two? Take a picture and post it here.
The State needs to step up (citizen welfare)
Standardize the signs, make them scary enough to make a 16 year old think about cause/effect or consequenses
"Lack of money is not the obstacle, lack of ideas is ..."
If you get caught in an avalanche and die, you will never have sex again.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by HyRUPz
I like this.
Always travel with a partner, rescue equipment, and the knowledge to use it.
I'm thinking this would be a sign that maybe could go at many BC trailheads that are easily accessed or whatever.
Maybe Friends of Loveland Pass can make their own darn sign... who knows. :)
Beer thirty here... keep the ideas up!
ATTENTIONYOU ARE ABOUT TO ENTER AVALANCHE TERRAIN
YOU CAN DIE
IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILTY TO MANTAIN SAFE TRAVEL. DO NOT PUT YOURSELF OR OTHERS AT RISK. USE PROPER AVALANCHE SAFETY GEAR.
CALL CAIC XXX-XXX-XXXX FOR CURRENT AVALANCHE CONDITIONS
my 2cents since it was asked for.
You can die here!!!
XX people have died from avalanches in this area since 19XX.
This area is unmaintained, and to be respected.
Avalanche training, beacon, probe, and partner STRONGLY recommended!
Don't become another statistic.
I support signage that explains that there is a specific risk to using an area, but don't support the Smokey Bear "today's risk is". If you provide people that sort of info and the unexpected happens then you will either 1) put yourself at risk of a lawsuit - "The sign said there was low danger and now Bobby is dead" or 2) People will come out alive on a high risk day (according to the sign) and will decide that whoever is putting the risk up there is not in touch with reality and will ignore it next time.
There are a couple things that give me pause... Nothing is ever safe. People will go and hurt or kill themselves no matter how many signs are up there. People who are good at being in the backcountry will still be dragged into bad situations trying to rescue the people that made mistakes. There is no way to put a sign at every point that people access the backcountry - and I wouldn't want to have that much signage up, anyway. It would get ignored.
I think this is a valiant effort, and I hope it saves lives. Unfortunately I don't think you can save them all.
Good point^^ about "safe". Halsted said lawyers have said to use the word "smart" instead of "safe"
How about adding a direct dial phone box linking it to CAIC daily report? Not sure about costs, but you could probably convince folks to pick up a free phone for a report right there at the sign.... sort of like an emergency call box deal.
IMO the caic number and phone isn't the best idea....If someone is up there and hasn't called caic before leaving the house, it seems to me they don't have enough knowledge to be in the BC regardless. Anything else seems to condone entering the bc to a certain extent.
Post the signs on main, high traffic, areas. Scare them ... saying or doing nothing is not the American way.
Mistakes happen I agree, but passive liberalism is for pussies.
I say TAKE ACTION!
A trail register is often used to provide infomation. In addition to warnings, maps of the slide areas could be posted. People entering BC can be requested to sign in and out. Trail registers are used all over the place as interpretive and education devices. They can usually be lower profile than a large sign, and slow people down enough to provide more detailed information. If not at Berthoud, perhaps at more remote locations.
Informing the public about the CAIC and the phone number is much different than actually posting the daily avalanche danger. We all forget things from time to time.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlurredElevens
BTW - Didn't I see a video post of you filming directly below a skier? If I recall, before you were hit by the slide you said something like, "Stand by these trees...it's gonna go when he drops in."
this is your brain, this is your brain on drugs. That and Nancy Reagan sure did alot to keep me from smoking pot in the eighties. Is the "sign" something to make you feel better or would it actually do any good? Would it be so cluttered with stickers and and Yo-we were here at 630, meet us at road at 1000 notes to be mute? Scare them? That's dumb. Remember the wrecked cars at your school during drunk driving awareness? This land is your land, this land is my land, equal access public land. You start here and end where? It still goes back to you are responsible for you and your actions. You can have the most educated geared up well meaning experienced fellas out there and something could happen-not even a mistake, things happens that could endanger or harm someone else, someone that is less experienced, etc than them. Then what? A sign for that? I've picked up shitloads of kids skipping school, parents probably don't know they're there, get in my truck they reek of pot smoke, wearing sweatshirts and split a liter of water between them. It is what it is, and that sucks and is also the beauty. Signs signs everywhere signs, clogging up the scenery, breaking my mind, do this don't do that. If you go out there expect worst case scenario, expect that someone could do something to put you in a bad situation, that someone is going to do something that is going to fuck up your life/day whatever. Its part of being out there.
If a sign it is, then Blurreds/Odin are close, delete the die here part. State the facts, that's all it is. Its your life, chose to live it how you want.
So you don't stop at STOP signs? Hum, not sure on your "everywhere are signs" passivity ...
i hear where you are coming from flatlander, trust me I do.
But...doesn't pragmatism have to come in here sometime? I'll admit to being idealistic and optimistic, but aren't you being unrealistic? Or perhaps just idealistic in a different direction...?
As much as I agree that personal responsibility trumps everything else in the final analysis, and that the world is a slipperly slope, the reality of the matter is that norms do apply, ie, Stop Sign, Red Light, Don't Shoot People. Passivity is for pansies, and usage is exploding dangerously at Berthoud Pass. So perhaps something can be done about it. Ever read the Tipping Point? Sometimes it doesn't take much to push a system out of one unstable local equilibrium to an alternative, desired and more stable optimum. I'm not suggesting signage everwhere, I'm not even suggesting signage at Loveland Pass. Hell, I'm not even sure I'm suggesting a sign at all. I'm just suggesting that action is better than inaction.
But in the absence of a better idea, I'm suggesting one sign, at a place where a bunch of people will unquestionably continue to go without the proper Training, Team, and Tools (gat though the saying may be). I'm just hoping to keep just one of them alive for one more day.
I'm not setting policy, precedent, or anything else. I'm simply taking a stand and saying that trying to help is better than nothing at all, or worse, isolationism and isolationist libertarianism. I fully agree that only we are truly responsible for our own actions. Perhaps CJ has the right idea. Might be time for a commando campaign. And if you want to come take down my one sign, you're more than welcome. But just so you know, I'm just going to sneak up there the next time and put it back up.
We optimists think we'll will win the day eventually. ;)
(Legal disclaimer: of course, I'd never do anything illegal myself, I'm just playing advocate for a moment to garner healthy debate from the community. Etc, etc.)
I've rolled my share of stop signs, but the ones on trails I blow right the fuck through. Its still technically wilderness, doesn't matter how used/utilized it is. I don't think it's unrealistic. You don't put up signs in hunting areas that read, don't dress like an elk during hunting season. Don't wear your meat suit in cougar country. I think its unrealistic to expect this to do any real good other than make people feel good regarding present situation, which is admittedly a shitty one. Would someone think oh I'll go grab that now that I read the danger danger sign? No, they won't.
Hell, I'd help you put it up, I'm not for taking it down. I have a bitchin hand post hole digger and ALOT of experience...
Not familiar with the area in question, but will throw $0.02 in. Experienced BC travelers can still determine safe traverse and ski routes on high danger days, while a newcomer could easily kill themselves and/or others. Also, not every day will conditions be high or extreme.
I think it still comes down to the individual and reminding them that they need to know their own limits and skills.
1) Remind the traveller that they are entering an unpatrolled avalanche prone area that can kill you
2) Remind the traveller that they need to have the proper equipment and how to use that equipment (sadly, the simple reminder on a sign may have been enough to cause the individual who died recently to go back and get their beacon)
3) Remind the traveller to assess their own skills
4) Remind the traveller to travel in a group
5) Give some kind of "shock" statistics like the # of people who died. That always sobers me up when I go up Mt. Washington.
Adding something about having a travel schedule with someone at home is good, but may be too much text.
YOU ARE ENTERING AN UNPATROLLED AVALANCHE AREA
THIS IS YOUR CHOICE
YOU CAN DIE
- ALWAYS CARRY AND KNOW HOW TO USE YOUR RESCUE EQUIPMENT
- ALWAYS TRAVEL IN A GROUP
- ALWAYS KNOW YOUR SKILLS AND LIMITS
(stats here)
(Avy contact information here)
Sounds like a very necessary thread!
[QUOTE=flatlander#2]I've rolled my share of stop signs, but the ones on trails I blow right the fuck through. Its still technically wilderness, doesn't matter how used/utilized it is. I don't think it's unrealistic. You don't put up signs in hunting areas that read, don't dress like an elk during hunting season. Don't wear your meat suit in cougar country. I think its unrealistic to expect this to do any real good other than make people feel good regarding present situation, which is admittedly a shitty one. Would someone think oh I'll go grab that now that I read the danger danger sign? No, they won't.
QUOTE]
Yeah, good point, but to hunt you need to first get a hunting license.
To ski the backcountry, you do not need a backcountry license.
Appreciate all the different ideas/opinions/observations. Keep em comin.
My intention is not to cunt up this thread, and I debated for awhile before deciding to post as it is not constructive to what is a healthy discussion on this board regarding what many think should be done regarding signage. Also, in advance, i mean no discrepsect to Sam or anyone else who has lost friend or family member to an avalanche.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyRUPz
I do, however, have a different opinion that is part of the broader debate. And after reading a couple of posts i couldn't resist adding a voice of dissent...and in the time it took me to write this flatlander hit on a number of points, so sorry for repeating anything.
Signs SHOULD NOT go up everywhere all over the place, near every road in the moutains. There are signs in place at numerous locations along berthoud pass and I believe at the summit of loveland pass. These are CDOT signs that are most commonly noticed as respositories for stickers. These are not be as explict as the group here is proposing, but in my view, the "scary" message is no more effective than the boilerplate language which already exists. A sign is not going to change behavior, evidence of which can be seen every year at the Canyons, Alta, Berthoud, Loveland Pass, Arapahoe....all places where there are signs or gates, and on a regular basis people with and people without the knowledge or skill ignore the sign and are killed. The picture from the canyons with the skull and cross bones is mounted on a swinging gate through which you have to forcibly walk. How much more explicit can you get? Do i want a turnstile at every pullout and pass in the state? No. The next logical step in protecting ourselves from ourselvs and our decisions is a USFS ranger at the trailhead doing beacon checks and forcibly denying access to the backcountry. Will this save lives...yes I am willing to concede that this extreme hypothetical would save lives. Would I support this infantilization of the general public in the interest of safety? No. And for the same reason, i don't support the infinitely more reasonable approach of trying to sign our way to safety.
Passive liberalism is for pussies? Give me a break. I'll tell you what is for pussies: having a sign posted for every hazard at every location at every time. Your logic is the kind that endorses suing mcdonalds for not labeling their coffee as hot, and wants Homeland Security to spend millions protecting the sewage treatement plant in Fargo from Al Qaeda.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyRUPz
Your BS about "syaing or doing nothing is not the American way" sounds like a politician's bluster. What I want is for people to take responsibility for their actions and to stop insisting that the USFS, CDOT, CAIC, FOBP, ski resort or anyone besides themselves and their partners are responsible for what happens once they leave their car or the boundary rope. Are there a lot of uneducated people out there using these access points? Well yes, that is obvious. Can they use help in learning about avalanches? Yes. Is a sign at the trailhead going to be that final piece of information they internalize and which makes them reconsider their actions? Not a chance in hell as far as I see it. Outreach and education systems exist and many people are capable of utilizing the educational resouces, weather and avalanche forecasts and accumulated knowledge of fellow backcountry skiers to keep themselvs safe. If backcountry users willfully disregard all the resources and input avilalbe to them in advance, why should we think that a sign in big letters is going to be anything but a placebo?
To end on a positive note, I'll offer a few suggestions of where I think that maggot support SHOULD go and that I believe would both prove more effective in terms of changing behavior while also respecting the fact that in a free country at some point individuals must take responsibility for their own actions.
- Write your state legislator(s) and tell them that the CAIC should receive more and more stable state funding to do more extensive outreach and education efforts in schools, through print and radio media, and through targeted TV public service announcments.
- Write to Colorado Ski Country USA and encourage resorts to subsidise educational events like beacon bowls, make their ski patrols avilable for educational purposes on the slopes, and perhaps even to do occassional "adopt a pass" programs where members of nearby patrols (Winter Park/MJ at Berthoud; Loveland/A-Basin at Loveland; Vail and Copper at Vail) are paid to do outreach at trailheads or even lead free Backcountry laps for newbies.
- As lemon boy and others have stated, don't pick up Jonny Gaper at berthoud or loveland if they obiously are w/out gear. Or, taking the localism vibe that someone mentioned in some thread somewhere, pull over next to Jonny Gaper, ask if he has gear, if not then give him as thorough of a verbal lashing as your personality can muster, tell him to fuck off and get some gear and education and then drive away.
- Taking a cue from some enviro types who enjoy stickering soccer mom humvees with phrases like "i'm changing the climate , ask me how", print up some cheap sticker that read "I help kill people in the backcountry...ask me how." Carry them around and plaster them on cars you see with a bed full of gearless jonny gapers, or on the parked cars of those not running shuttle.
FINALLY, JOIN CAIC...GIVE THEM YOUR $$$...DO IT NOW
Although I also hate cliches, I think using the "if there's enough snow to ski, there's enough snow to slide" cliche could actually prove to be very effective.
Think about it, the sign is aimed more towards the tourons that frequent BP rather than the more experienced backcountry skier. The cliche is quite catchy, and could potentially start to stick in the heads of the unexperienced.
Whether or not they actually choose to heed these warnings is another question...
Honestly, I don't think any of those would be very effective. I think signs would actually do more.Quote:
Originally Posted by pde20
There is no way enough people would write to the legislature to actually get them to spend money on the CAIC when they have a hard enough time spending money on other education.
Awareness events and beacon bowls are great, but only for those that give a crap about becoming educated. Joey Gaper is not going to attend a beacon bowl or even have a beacon. Outreach is awesome, but if they don't attend they can't be reached.
Not picking up gapers is fine except someone will eventually pick them up, so what does it really do?
You really think that bumper sticker would do anything at all? I don't. Not to mention the vandalism side of your idea.
I am not trying to put you down... just my thoughts. When I see people around without gear, especially in East Vail, I ask if they have any gear and if not I tell them that they are risking death. I would support the idea of having a trail nazi who occaisionally goes out and gives people fines for not having the necessary equipment. The Forest Service can ticket for other things, why not this? THE FINE FOR ENTERING THE BC WITHOUT THE REQUIRED GEAR IS A $1000 MIN! They could make lots of money really quickly!
Why do you think that people who are not going to benefit from more opportunities at avy education are going to pay attention to any sign? We see these people in the same light: they are young, generally don't want to take advice from anyone, and are new to the BC. You have got to be kidding yourself if you see an inanimate object put in front of them at the last possible moment before they head into the BC as more effective than a concerted effort to reach and educate them prior to arriving at the doorstep of the backcountry. Your tack may be more realistic --getting a sign put up vs. changing legislative behavior -- but as for effective I don't buy it. As for the last two ideas, more self empowering, but you are right low return.Quote:
Originally Posted by funkendrenchman
Good luck none the less.
No fucking way, man. People have been skiing berthoud pass backcountry for decades without gear, and many do it safely. All you need to have the proper gear is a credit card and a trip to REI. From a ski area, I could see the logic of some type of turnstile (sp) that opens when you're transmitting, but that is because you're using the ski area leased land and ski area owned lifts to access that land. Do you really think CDOT (the owner of the access point to Berthoud Pass) has money to spend on backcountry skiing?Quote:
Originally Posted by funkendrenchman
You get into way too much of a slippery slope with this idea.....it's OUR national forest, and as a taxpayer, "Joey Gaper" has just as much of a right to it as you do. That's how it is and that's how it should always be.
edit - and I add, as the snowboarders (sorry to single them out) are starting his posthole in my skin track, do you really think him and his bro's are going to read the signs, turn around, get back in the car and drive to Winter Park?