@onenerdykid, is there a double boa Ultra XTD on the drawing board?Quote:
Originally Posted by onenerdykid
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@onenerdykid, is there a double boa Ultra XTD on the drawing board?Quote:
Originally Posted by onenerdykid
I've been a boot fitter for 10 years. BOA is a fit solution for some people. Not a performance enhancer really. BUT, if a boot fits you better then theoretically performance is increased as well. I tried on 5 boots this fall and the one that felt the best for my foot was the Salomon Supra 130 Boa. I have a medium high instep and widish forefoot. I really like the wrap feeling over the top of my foot without any pressure points. Boot skis awesome for me. Its not for everyone.
Phil said it best. Don't not try BOA and don't buy BOA just cuz.
I'm looking forward to trying a double BOA boot later this month.
I recently took all the lugnuts off my van and replaced w harbor freight boa. Seems fineQuote:
Originally Posted by 2FUNKY
NASCAR will be using boa soonQuote:
Originally Posted by byates1
Consider me a romantic of the annoyance and satisfaction of the boot buckle.
Attachment 509269
You heard it here first.
This is like six minute abs.
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Manufacturers. Retailers. ROI. What about the ski boot wearing public? Sure, there will be a lot of boot buyers who accept the whole size scheme and are willing to settle. Lots of skiers are not willing to settle, myself included, and will not buy the boots which will lead to more unhappy retailers. Who cares about retailers that sing the song and do the dance in order to meet the mfgr ROI? Give me a boot (Lange, please) that builds boots in half sizes with buckles.Quote:
Originally Posted by onenerdykid
It’s interesting that the excuse is always that it’s too expensive to do half sizes but when I go and look at atomics boot lineup there’s 48? unique SKUs. Same with Lange. Seems like you could eliminate some of the redundant models (like why does Lange make an 85, 95, and 100 flex in the same boot, or Atomic seemingly random variations of the Hawx boots) and instead have a simplified lines with 1/2 sizes?
For me again it’s a choice between a boot that requires toe punches for length or a boot that I’m swimming in because the last and instep height increase substantially between a 26.5 and a 27.5
Or how about this, perhaps a gentlemen’s agreement (at least within a conglomerate like Amer or Rossi group) to have half sizes for one brand and whole sizes for another. Or if that’s a bridge too far, Atomic 26.5 BSL is a 306 and Salomon’s 26.5 BSL is a 310 with corresponding internal length. Same with Rossi vs Lange.
Yeah maybe you don’t do that in rental boots but maybe at least on the top tier alpine boots?
I kinda want boa lowers because my bottom buckles are usually very low tension which means they are always getting flipped up and unlatched by the snow off piste.
I don’t know about better fit, but that seems like enough reason for me to be happy with them vs lower buckles that basically aren’t doing anything and spend half their time unlocked.
Upper boa sounds intriguing. Maybe it will work, maybe it won’t, but conceptually it sounds possible.
Correct. But you'd think a retailer or rep going to a supplier and saying "hey, we need this" might have some impact. I know that your campaign for the P15 had some pull in bringing it back. I spent most of my time after the cancellation of Pivots telling the higher ups that "we" needed it back ASAP. So much so that at corporate meetings I was told not to bring Pivots up. Then when they reintroduced them without the 15, I was what? Now I'm a retailer and have to deal with all sorts of hard goods suppliers that don't want feedback....oh well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flexon Phil
Naw they’d rather reengineer boots to have fancy little doodad cable dials that people don’t need.Quote:
Originally Posted by waxman
Funny, we were at one meeting with the US & Euros and I thought .... I have their attention now ... I had a couple of "requests" like with all of the flat mid 80mm skis, an 85mm Pivot brake and the to reinvigorate the SPX, make them all Rockerace. I got a few "That's enough Phil, move on" looks.Quote:
Originally Posted by waxman
I hate them
I'm with you on the Rockerace train. That said, I'm still trying to figure out why they started putting the little tabs at the back of the heel plate to make it have full contact with the top of the ski?
There is such a range in variance with internal length across boots this is basically true. Many Salomon boots used to be about 1/2-3/4 of a ‘size’ longer than Atomics. Guessing it’s still true. Even within Salomon boots you’d have over a cm of length difference between different models of Salomon boots listed as the same size. BSL didn’t change that much but internal length was over a size in variance across a bunch of boots all labeled as the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKALVS
pump for fun
pump for comfort
pump for style
pump for precision
pump for life
Attachment 510440
Well, after two days of skiing a double boa boot (the first time I skied any boa), I think I have formed an opinion. It will be hard to separate my thoughts on the boot and my thoughts on boa, but I'll try.
Boa is awkward: There is nothing more natural about using boa than buckles. Our rep said he had to drive out to a shop and show the employees how to get into double boa boots. Also, the cable mess when putting them on is just enough to be annoying.
Boa is slow: It is ungodly slow. This plays into fit a bit, but unless your boot is insanely tight out of the gate, you are spinning a lot. And then more. I've never been unsure of how tight my boots are as I have with Boa. After spinning for what feels like ages, you ski 200m and have to tighten more. Putting a buckle on a 3rd notch and clicking down is pretty damn consistent and extremely fast. Then at the bottom of the run, you just flick the buckle up and click it back down when needed. Cuff boa is even more annoying. I can operate buckles without lifting my pants. Not possible with boa.
It doesn't solve problems: Boa still gives pressure points. You can feel the force coming through the dial and from the first pivot, very similar to a buckle.
Doesn't pull your Ankle Back The cuff boa doesn't pull your ankle back at all. Do you like the feeling of clicking that lower cuff buckle and feeling your shin and ankle get pulled back? Boa says fuck that. Not just fit thing, every person who I've talked to feels the same.
Lack of independent control: Yes, you still need need the ability to tighten different areas of your boot independently. If you toes and instep are not equally tight, boa will tighten them unequally. I want to be able to lightly buckle my instep and tighten my forefoot more if I want. The cuff boa problems go even deeper. You can't tighten your ankle without tightening the top of the boot. Many people like to lock in the ankle and play with the top buckle for flex control. With boa, the cables are pulled the same distance so it feels tighter on your calf than your ankle. Nothing beats a super stiff boot with a loose ankle.
No compensation for fit: For the reasons above, but extra emphasized here, the lack of independent zone control doesn't allow you to compensate for fit discrepencies.
It is a pain to work on: The cables get in the way of opening the boot up really wide or sliding it onto a punch. The molding for the lower boa doesn't allow the cup of the punch to sit where you want it to, making it awkward to punch near that area.
If you foot perfectly fits a shell in every dimension and the flex characteristics of the boot when cranked are exactly as you want them, then perhaps Boa is decent.
Lower Boa had a naive excitement to it when it came out but that is gone now. I've never seen such an initial repulsion towards a product.
I'd be very happy to see boa leave the ski boot industry and will be ordering as little boa as possible to help drive the point home to the product managers. Of course it works for some people, but the trade isn't worth it.
They will solve all of your zone dependent problems by making it a four BOA boot! BOA for each zone!! It’ll be BOAtastic!
I actually like my lower only BOA boot as my shell fit is pretty money already. But man I could see the problems you state with an upper cuff BOA.
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Don’t have a boa; haven’t used a boa. But I ski most with a snowboarder with boas on his boots and omg are they terrible. Yes, FloridaMan, they’re not magic Alpine Boas, but they suffer from the issues others here have mentioned about alpine boas. The biggest issue is when they break (at least the non alpine boas do break… and remember, the titanic was unsinkable) they do so catastrophically. Because they take the place of multiple buckles, when they break it’s the equivalent of multiple buckles breaking at the same time. No good.
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Thank you for reviewing! More or less what I expected. Surprised of the disadvantage of doing the wires when putting them on. My initial thought was it is going to be easier than buckles. And there goes the last plus point of boa. Maybe it will develope further. But with the prices for the molds not much gonna happen the next 3years.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBC
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I just read a BOA user thread on FB and the love/hate would seems to b half n half
not sure, not a user and probably won't be
You're confirming all the reservations that I have with the system, especially the "lack of independent control." I'll hold off on making final judgement until I can get my hands on a pair, but everything you write matches up perfectly with my suspicions.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBC
Some interesting takes in this thread. All opinions are valid so I won’t go into those but I will say they are different than the vast majority of opinions out there. For the vast majority boa is making boots much more comfortable and helping people get on the slopes with less work. Because of this it’s not going any where. In all honestly I think people trying not to like it at this point are simply doing so to try to be different or have not spent enough time to understand the system. But it’s not going away so I would learn how to work with the system and get the most from it. Boot fitters who embrace new technology and learn what it can do and how it can improve their job will always do best in this industry. For now race boots have buckles so for those who just don’t want to use it there will be options. But the industry is always going to go for what is working best for the majority of people and that is not buckles anymore.
Golden, that may be one of the best breakdowns of any feature I've ever seen. Thanks for that.
Thanks Waxman. I really was not trying to hate it. I respect everyone’s work that went into it and friends and reps that enabled me to get into a boot to try. I like mods and think things can always improve. But when a product is this counter intuitive and doesn’t give the basics that people want, it’s tough to try anymore.
Tom, I’d love to hear about who is testing and how that process works. So far, I haven’t had a good review in person from anyone who isn’t paid to support double boa. For any double boa boot.
So we seed out a few hundred boots this time of year. They go to reps who spread them out to people like yourself. We then try to get as much feedback as we can. Your feedback is great but it is in the minority. I’m not saying you are wrong in any way but just giving letting you know that your opinion is different from the masses.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBC
Ultimately we are in business to sell boots. We produce the boots the retailers want to sell. Retailers buy the boots customers want to buy. When we launched boa we made all boots available in boa or buckle. We gave retailers the choice. They made the choice very clearly in buying 70% boa to buckle in year 1. Those boots then proceeded to sell through and the percentage rose to close to 90% in year 2 for boa.
This is pretty clear to us, boa sells better than buckle. So ultimately why would we go against what sells? If customers like it, retailers like it and we believe it is a better product too, why would we ignore all that?
I think one of the most interesting posts on this has been elite skiing. Now you can say whatever about the group but they are generally a slighter older more reserved group. The first posts about boa had hundreds of responses saying it will never work. This week there was one asking for feedback from people who have skied the boots. There are about 200 responses and of those only two people say they don’t like them.
Is it coming with the remedy? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by onenerdykid
Anyone peep Gunderson’s FB!!
Lots of BOA hate!!
Tom, I appreciate your perspective. The market does seem to like Boas. I sought them out for bike shoes, mtn boots, etc for a few years. I think they make sense for softer footwear that couldn’t take a buckle, where they might be better than laces. But, after many experiences with them, I now look for Velcro bike shoes. The boa seems to make pressure points more than alternatives.
You’re in business to sell stuff. That’s great. But, just because the average consumer says something’s better, doesn’t make it so. I would bet that the perception of “new technology “ eg Boa, will help any product sell. Doesn’t mean it improves performance. I think that’s why you see this split.
I still haven’t forgotten about the piezoelectric bs lights on the K2 skis from the 90s..
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Always happy to give information on the hope it will help. We just make plastic ski shoes at the end of the day we are not changing the world. We just make cool things that we and the people we ski with want to use and if some of you like them too then awesome!Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip Dooley
Yup. That and Golden's review here have really put me on my heels. I want to love the concept but it's hard to see this as anything other than the early stages of a failed trend.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiLyft
Days 1-10 might be fine with new, plush liners. But I'm really skeptical about BOA once the boots "settle" into place and the micro-managing begins... and then continues forever.
It's almost like "Back to the Future" called and they want their prop back.
Also this ^^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip Dooley
The sudden over-abundance of BOA feels forced and unlike traditional revolutionary designs. Usually big design sweeps are limited to one manufacturer and hated by the masses until the masses learn as other manufacturers tweak the original concept into a viable product.
Remember when suddenly every shoe company was making velcro shoes? Another solution in search of a problem.
I'll remain neutral until I try. But you boot manufacturers really have some explaining to do, and I don't mean marketing. Make some videos of people putting on and tightening BOA vs Buckles. Show us how we can micro-adjust fit over time. And show us how a failed cable can be fixed in the field and not be equivalent to losing two buckles on a frozen peak somewhere.
Quoted... to show manufacturers what the readers see and to which they are listening.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBC
Also wanted to add-- never in my 47 seasons on snow have I ever said-- Man, these buckles are just too much work.
I have wished for more elasticity in my buckles. Like, a really firm spring inside the housing. That exists, for sure.
BOA is really nice to have on my road bike shoes +1. I had BOA on my wading boots and went back to laces. Ive skied BOA ski boots and like buckles way more. If shops bought 70% BOA boots and then 90% the following year with really strong sales then that is a good thing. If the masses of skiers who are replacing their boots are buying BOA because it is the most available (90% of boots on the shelf) and it is what the shops are pushing then that will be the largest selling item. It's like rear entry boots. They were everywhere and are very comfortable but they came and went and are around again to a varying degree but they came and went. I believe this will be the case with BOA ski boots.
Shifts + black crows + arcteryx + boa boots + ikon pass & crystal mountain sticker + terminal intermediate skiing ability seem to be the combo I’m seeing a lot
That's the target market for BOA closure systems.Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKALVS
Oh Noa, mo boa. Attachment 510578
I used Boa in K2 Transformer snowboard boots 25?yrs ago, fit was OK but yes some fiddle with the dial. Hmm I haven't been back on a board since 2005ish now, but not because of boa.
This is the important thing to remember. Sales stats are really not relevant to what works the best for people. It’s based on what is available, marketing, bootfitter or not, etc. buyers go in on boa the first year to see what’s up and of course the numbers are skewed from then on.Quote:
Originally Posted by halliday
I did. Also my bootfitter is on the thread disagreeing.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiLyft