PARK CITY (and all) SKI PATROLLERS DESERVE MORE.

In terms of Park City that is very much a two way street. Vail gets a lot of deserved hate but Park City locals have never really given them a fair shake in pretty much every aspect. Off the top of my head they would rather burn the place down than get more parking, or hold the town lift hostage as just the latest example, affects of the ski experience for all be damned. I mean I get it, fuck the corporate overlord and all, but at a certain point it just seems petty for millionaires bitching about their billionaire ski area owner like its some moral travesty. And lets be real, in a competition of who sucks more Powdr wins if you ask me, if only out of sheer incompetence. You may not like Vail, but they are at least good at what they do.

At the end of the day, Vail has hundreds if not thousands of patrollers at other mountains that will gladly take an expenses paid vacation to Park City for Christmas vs. triaging some jabroni at Hunter for example. I hope the Park City patrollers get a couple extra bucks but they have basically zero leverage.

Fuck Vail you apologist asswipe. You really are a douchebag.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by new yabyum

I'm sure they'll be thrilled to travel over the Holidays.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Buzzworthy

Fuck Vail you apologist asswipe. You really are a douchebag.

---

Two thumbs up for Buzz.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by new yabyum

I'm sure they'll be thrilled to travel over the Holidays.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Buzzworthy

Fuck Vail you apologist asswipe. You really are a douchebag.

---

Two thumbs up for Buzz.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AdironRider;[emoji[emoji6[emoji640

[emoji638]][emoji640][emoji639]][emoji637][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji637]]][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji639]][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji637]]][emoji6[emoji640][emoji637]]]
At the end of the day, Vail has hundreds if not thousands of patrollers at other mountains that will gladly take an expenses paid vacation to Park City for Christmas vs. triaging some jabroni at Hunter for example.

---

Man, that sucks if it’s that easy to find scabs.

Maybe there is wording in The Company hiring agreement that includes the words "in the event of a staffing shortage Vail Resorts can bring in outside help from another operating entity within The Company to fill the labor void". Vail has lawyers. PC patrollers have weak union representation. Let's see what happens. Fingers crossed for the patrollers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by One (+) Sentence

?? Paging TFW in 3,2,1...

Everyone has a family, dude. Maybe it's different than your definition, but everyone has one.

---

Super serial.

Thing that really blows my mind is that the pay they're getting at PCMR is so much lower than other VR owned ski areas. Wonder why PCMR specifically is getting such pushback from VR.

SkiJ mentioned hospital strikes. I've been through a few. Yeah, the hospital stays open, but they empty it out as much as possible first, cancel elective surgery, close the ER, send people to other hospitals--rounding on my patients in a hospital I didn't know was fun. They bring in registry nurses, who cost the hospital twice as much (surprise, it's not the nurses who get the extra money) to take care of the patients they can't transfer. If Vail brings in patrol from other mountains what happens to staffing at those places? If they're squeaking by on patrol I would assume they would open as little of the mountain as possible. Guests won't be happy.

Trying to bring in replacements is a really bad idea. One incident and its write the plaintiff a check for more than what VR would have saved by reaching an agreement in the 1st place.

And if the incident involves guest safety it will be a gigantic black eye.

I don’t know how resort labor is distributed for PC, but if the patrollers walk out, who else walks out with them? FAR nurses, mtn docs, cat operators, etc.?


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Bartenders.

Of all the connected professions in the ski industry, patrol is consistently at the top end of not recognizing their actual bargaining power. It's embarrassing actually, but these folks already agree to work for a pittance, so it is understandable.

I figure I'd chime in here. Background: I worked for a now alterra owned resort for 7 years(it was privately owned then)and was on their patrol. Now I work in the corporate sector. I'm a director of HR (9,000 fte) and have worked in union and non union environments. Although my current employer is very anti union, my brother is a 4th generation union steel worker. In general I'm rather pro union for hourly workers.

IME often the biggest mistake a union can make is waiting to strike after an authorizeion vote. The longer the gap the more time their is for the employer to respond (ie come up with a scab strategy). If I were advising the patrol I'd try and get them to strike ASAP. They would want this resolved before the holidays. I have seen the wildcat (non authorized strike) be very effective in negotiations when a contract is in place. From a compensation perspective ski patrol generally requires certification EMT/WFR, blasting licence for mitigation, lots of training, and experience to be familiar with terrain and equipment. All of these factors in an extremely expensive cost of living location would indicate they are under paid and not asking for a large enough increase.

What Vail most likely fears the most is not what happens at PCMR rather preventing union organization at other properties and departments. The patrols ability to create solidarity with the other patrols to prevent scabs is probably what they are waiting for. Again if they are actually willing to strike I hope they do it soon.

Plenty of (very busy!) non-unionized pro patrollers (and probably resort owners) watching what happens.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Patrollers are the most highly skilled and trained employees on the mountain, working the most dangerous positions. They deserve to be compensated a comfortable living wage. Think $10-20/hr more than they currently get with a stipend to cover their equipment/gear.

Some of my buddies that patrol are worried that unionizing will negatively affect their work/fun balance. These guys work hard and let off steam hard. I'm not sure how that would play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SnowMachine

Patrollers are the most highly skilled and trained employees on the mountain, working the most dangerous positions. They deserve to be compensated a comfortable living wage. Think $10-20/hr more than they currently get with a stipend to cover their equipment/gear.

Some of my buddies that patrol are worried that unionizing will negatively affect their work/fun balance. These guys work hard and let off steam hard. I'm not sure how that would play.

---

It is a fine line. I was skiing on Monday with a retired PD (Bridger Bowl) a retired Asst. PD (Big Sky) and another retired patroller, I was a PD for 8 years.

Big Sky went union about 3-4 years ago so the changes are now becoming pretty clear. Yes the starting wages have gone above 21 dollars an hour and I know supervisors and Snow Safety team members who are making $35+ an hour (they are not union as they are considered managers) with a decent benefits package. So far so good. And a lot of the staff now work for the ski area YR/FT so they can make $75K a year which is great unless you are trying to afford to live in Bozeman or Big Sky.

On the flip side, what was a really fun thing to do for 5 1/2 months a year has become a real job. When not running medical calls or doing hill maintenance I see them out training a lot in order to check their boxes and increase their eligibility to move to a higher level which means more $$$. It will be very interesting to see if burnout will negate the higher wages and if turnover will be a wash.

I think that the pay scales, benefit packages and work schedules of patrollers is at a pivotal place, and will become something different in the years to come. Patrollers want to have fun, but they take their job very seriously...always have - - always will. Regarding their jobs, it needs to be looked at more as a career with some volunteers to lay rope, than a job. With most mountains (at least in the Intermountain West) having a huge mountain bike presence patrolling can and should be a full-time position. Patrollers are protecting people, some of whom are careless/reckless, and they certainly possess a certain multi-faceted skill set. Of course, they should only be paid what the market will bear, but that compensation should be significant. It is insulting to pay a patroller a couple bucks more an hour than a liftie/server, mountain host. Of course, patrollers compensation should include a pay scale, with more experienced people commanding higher wages. That brings me to wages: I would like to see patrollers paid by F/T salaries, rather than an hourly wage. Part-timers can be paid hourly, but most of the staff should be F/T. Also, health insurance should be paid as an annual benefit.

Regarding the threat of a strike, I say if it is needed to change the way corporate skiing in America thinks about patrollers, then it should happen. I will make no predictions about how Vail (or POWDR, Alterra, etc.) will handle this, and I do not know how strong the union really is. I have read that the town has not given Vail a fair shake. This is probably true. We have gone thru three different owners since the olympics, and each one seems to be more bottom-line oriented. If you come in and intend to change the shape of a town, then you need to expect to be scrutinized. I hope that whatever deal that is reached speaks more of long-term benefits and the direction of the roles and expectations of patrollers, than a 2-3 year deal. If the deal is short-term, no one will be happy.

To me, patrollers are the most important mountain employees, by far, and they should be taken, and treated accordingly.

Of course, not all patrollers are equal. I don't think what I say applies to smaller mountains outside of the intermountain west and PNW. I just think that the skill set is different.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SnowMachine

Patrollers are the most highly skilled and trained employees on the mountain, working the most dangerous positions. They deserve to be compensated a comfortable living wage. Think $10-20/hr more than they currently get with a stipend to cover their equipment/gear.

Some of my buddies that patrol are worried that unionizing will negatively affect their work/fun balance. These guys work hard and let off steam hard. I'm not sure how that would play.

---

try making snow on the night shift, pal...




fact.

Or the lift maintenance personnel perched 50 ft up, in 50mph winds at -5f.

It needs to become a career.

Too many odd types, semi retired, trust funders, guys working two careers, etc.

Raise the bar, emt only, etc. it needs to be unionized, hard to get job. That only comes from local or national requirements, forrest land etc. i

Similar jobs, like being an ocean guard like I was once, paid me that 30 yrs ago, but the permanent guards are all emt now, and they don’t take dentists in early retirement. Your do pne at 45. .

I got to hang with a patrol in BC last week, the avi work is serious shit.

Every patroller I know has at least OEC.

When I worked at solitude it was EMT only.

Yeah it’s a suck job at times. Tedious maintenance
Broken bones and carnage and snowplowing sled rides. Uggh. That’s the part that makes my knees hurt thinking about it. Snowplowing through bumps or chunder? No thanks.

But then, assuming you’re at a real mountain, you get first tracks and get to blow shit up.
Had a few ride alongs over the years. That shit is fun. But doing it every day takes a special kind of motivation.

Hats off to the patrol. Thank you for opening the mountain.

Cono said career?

wtf. Is this a year round job? What about snowcats or lifties or instructors or ticket sellers?
Lots of ski jobs are seasonal.

It’s not a career. It’s a life choice. A combination of helping people and helping yourself to fresh tracks and a vest full of explosives.

PS. They should be paid more. Since Covid you can get $19 bagging groceries here. I think a fair wage for a good patroller is $30

It’s like the old joke about business owners only working half days. They just have to figure out what to do with the other twelve hours.
So many ski employees have to have summer jobs.

Vail and the patrollers have agreed to mediation. I am not sure whether a date is set. Christmas is coming, there is no snow, and the patrollers stay at work. For mediation to be really effective, it should occur within the next 4 days; otherwise, the patrollers lose a bargaining chip.
For those interested, here is the Park Record article:
https://www.parkrecord.com/2024/12/1...horize-strike/

They are asking for full time benefits coverage despite working 4-5 months a year (if one elects family coverage that is a 20-30k a year benefit depending on how good or bad Vail's plan is). There were 10 applications for every patrol job available this year.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/park...170503110.html

scheduling mediation will be a four week to eight week process ;

that the union is demanding year 'round medical insurance Because ' it's to hard to to change insurance every six months' strikes me as an entirely unreasonable demand.

Good luck to the patrollers
( I believe they Need better representation - by lots (better) ! ) --

Is the union demanding it or asking for it? Is it something the union will let go or is the acceptance of it going to make or break the deal? Is it even unreasonable? Do other Ski patrols have it and is it normal? Is it becoming the industry standard if it's not normal?

I think all this armchair quarterbacking is silly without any context and inside knowledge

Well they authorized a strike, so it seems like they are demanding it.

It is 100 percent not normal for a 4 month employee to get year round insurance coverage.

Having to get health insurance through your employment is what is not normal. No other fucking country does this bullshit.

My employer does not buy my fucking car insurance. Why the hell is it buying my fucking health insurance?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by m2711c

Having to get health insurance through your employment is what is not normal. No other fucking country does this bullshit.

My employer does not buy my fucking car insurance. Why the hell is it buying my fucking health insurance?

---

So much this...

Keystone: Batter up!
https://www.powder.com/news/keystone...EwZmhoFKemak_A

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 7171713

Is the union demanding it or asking for it? Is it something the union will let go or is the acceptance of it going to make or break the deal? Is it even unreasonable? Do other Ski patrols have it and is it normal? Is it becoming the industry standard if it's not normal?

I think all this armchair quarterbacking is silly without any context and inside knowledge

---

Most of these questions are matters of opinion ( or perspective ), and only the outcome will tell what the outcome is -

is the union asking or demanding it (?)
- it being year 'round medical insurance ;
downstream from a strike authorization vote, I believe the union's contract proposal is a demand ;

now they are committed to mediation, which will take weeks to occur --

is it even unreasonable (?)
- year 'round medical insurance for seasonal Work ?
Please, find me any other seasonal occupation that receives year 'round medical insurance.
And
the union acknowledges that medical insurance is available, and makes the claim it is 'too hard to change insurance' , so most patrollers do not participate ;
to me, that's a terrible argument --
( COBRA allows one to continue insurance ( in most cases, it is unaffordable. ) )

Do other Ski patrols have it and is it normal (?)
- year 'round medical insurance for seasonal positions ?
- no and no ;

Is it becoming the industry standard if it's not normal (?)
- no, year 'round medical insurance is not becoming the industry standard ( and it is not normal )


I believe we all would wish for paid patrollers to be paid more -
But
the way the union is going about this is challenging to understand
( calling for a 'strike authorization vote' and agreeing a day or two later to mediation, ,,, seems like a Big step backward for the union ).

Information is available - including what comparable compensation is being paid to paid patrollers at other areas ;
both the union spokesperson and VR representative have spoken to the media
( I don't know what other context and inside knowledge is necessary. )

I hope the paid patrollers will be paid more, and I believe the union has done a Poor job representing the patrollers.

Good luck.

skiJ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by m2711c

Having to get health insurance through your employment is what is not normal. No other fucking country does this bullshit.

My employer does not buy my fucking car insurance. Why the hell is it buying my fucking health insurance?

---

That's a loaded question... But then this ends up in Poli-Ass.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AdironRider

Well they authorized a strike, so it seems like they are demanding it.

It is 100 percent not normal for a 4 month employee to get year round insurance coverage.

---

# 1. the ski season is longer than 4 months. More like 5+.
# 2. Patrollers don't start the day the resort opens, there is about a month of training on the front end. that brings it to 6 months.
# 3. When I was not FT YR my company paid for my HI YR because I was considered valuable.

Just shut the fuck up about things you are clearly uninformed about.

All 300 patrollers do not work 6+ months at Park City. Nor is it common for seasonal employees to get health insurance paid year round.

I understand you want them to get this, but you are talking about what you want, not reality. Very few companies are paying that level of benefit spend for a person who works that little. Definitely not when there is a line out the door for replacements.

But continue to throw insults because you think everything in life is like the Polyass forum.

Bless your heart…

I would bet that 75% of the PCMR patrollers work at least from 11/1 to 4/20, and a good 40-50% work from June 1-Labor Day. But clearly, the reason they are worth a salary that equals about $30-35/hr all year long is for what they do between 12/1-4/1 and 6/1-9/15. It needs to be a floating salary/wage, based upon experience, skill set, seniority and hours. ....

Vail's biggest concern (other than the bottom line) is PCMR patrollers set the stage for future battles with places like Keystone and other western resorts and NE resorts

Last time I responded to the thread 4 years ago about PC wanting to unionize I hadda put BakersTelemark and Dowpork on ignore.
Guess as a 42 year patroller I oughtn't have an opinion.
So I won't this time.
But: The average age of folks buying homes in this country is 56 up from 49 last year.
The future I see is bleak for career patrolmen.
Kids are gonna do it for a bit, but there aren't gonna be a buncha experienced patrol folks going forward.
And ski areas will suffer accordingly.
Willingly.