I saw a sunrise selfie from the summit of Sup today too....
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I saw a sunrise selfie from the summit of Sup today too....
Man, need more snow. I still gotta move my head out of bike mode. Is the crest gtg?
Cautiously admiring that hair ball run down Little Chute. Jeezus. Anyone who's been there on a good day has to appreciate that commitment.
I always wonder how far people will push it for instant fame these days, to be continued for sure.
Using 1 of 3 bitching hallpasses?
“Due to the high public use of the [Salt Lake Ranger District], especially in the Tri-Canyon area,[the Salt Lake Ranger District] has determined that the area does not currently have capacity for additional priority use permits, and therefore is not currently accepting applications or undergoing analysis.”
https://www.sltrib.com/news/environm...ides-say-lack/
So the FS says we don't have enough capacity to sustain the existing number of guides, but its fine to cram 50%+ more people up the canyon via the gondola?
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Can you paste the article?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dshack89
"Citing staffing shortages, the Salt Lake Ranger District has paused issuing temporary, six-month permits to outfitters and guides for the lands it oversees in the Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest."Quote:
Originally Posted by Dshack89
I read it more that the SL ranger district doesn't have the staff to issue permits. Which I think is the real issue. I'm sure benneke could expand on that since he worked there in the past 5 years, but i think the person who was overseeing permits either quit or retired a few years back and then all that workload went to the district manager/ranger who likely already has a ton on their plate.
So in reality, the same people who are pushing for a gondola (local and national political leaders) are also not funding the USFS so they can adequately staff and attract a workforce to manage the forest.....
I left the SL ranger district 2 years ago, but at the time I was involved with issuing permits for guides and such. Haven't talked to anyone there recently and haven't read the article but it would be pretty lame if they took away peoples' livelihoods simply because of staffing issues. That said, working there can be pretty stressful for very low pay so I get it. I mean.. I left which contributes to the staffing issues I guess.. not even sure if my specific role had been replaced, last time I checked in the spring it was still with some temps that filled the responsibilities.
[QUOTE=Salt Lake Trib]
By Julie Jag
| Nov. 2, 2023, 5:56 a.m.
Todd Passey has guided clients to the top of Mount Everest and the peak of the highest mountain on each of the seven continents. He’s taken customers backcountry skiing in Alaska and just last month led a client to the summit of Mount Olympus in Greece.
Yet starting this January, there’s one place the Salt Lake City resident can’t take his clients — into his own backyard.
Citing staffing shortages, the Salt Lake Ranger District has paused issuing temporary, six-month permits to outfitters and guides for the lands it oversees in the Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest. That has frustrated and infuriated the guides. They say the pause does more than hurt their businesses, it also makes the forest more dangerous and deprives people of the opportunity to go backcountry skiing, climbing and mountaineering around Salt Lake City unless they have connections or training.
The number of guided trips into the Central Wasatch Range will be nearly cut in half, they argue, and all the demand will fall on the one multisport outfitter in the district who holds a tenured permit.
In addition, the interruption lays bare an issue local guides and outfitters have been wrangling with for a decade or more: Unlike other districts in the forest and nationwide, the Salt Lake Ranger District has no clear path for them to obtain a multiyear permit. That type of permit, in comparison to the semiannual lottery the district currently runs, they say would give more stability to them and people looking for guides or avalanche training while also creating less work for the district.
“We’ve been doing this for 20 years, it’s our profession, and they’re just ripping it out from us,” Passey said. “Meanwhile, I travel all over the world … to make money because I can’t do it in my backyard.”
How does the permitting system work?
Carl Dec can hardly keep track of the different reasons the Salt Lake Ranger District has given him for not expanding its permit program.
Dec started asking about guiding in the Central Wasatch back around 2006. That was a few years after he opened Red River Adventures, a Moab-based mountaineering, rafting and climbing outfitter. At the time, the Salt Lake Ranger District was only opening the forest to the six companies with long-term permits. They are the same six businesses that still hold the district’s only multiyear permits today. They include the American Avalanche Institute, the National Ability Center, Powderbird Helicopter Skiing, Snowbird Resort, the Ski Utah Interconnect Tour and Utah Mountain Adventures.
Of those, only Utah Mountain Adventures offers all-season guiding services to the public. It also has a history of providing employment to independent guides who fail to secure a six-month permit through the semiannual lottery.
As Salt Lake City and the surrounding areas boomed, Dec foresaw a growing demand for recreational outings, especially in the Cottonwood canyons. So, he kept asking the district how he could obtain a permit.
Over the years, he said, he’s been told both that there’s too much use and not enough use; that the one tenured guiding service is handling demand; that the forest-use plan in place isn’t up-to-date and that the 25-year-old plan can’t be updated until older plans within the forest service are dealt with. He’s also been told that the Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest regional district doesn’t have a permanent regional manager who can approve an updated forest plan.
Two years ago, he said, he was told nothing could be done until the Utah Department of Transportation made its decision about how to deal with traffic in Little Cottonwood Canyon. Famously, UDOT favored building one of the world’s longest gondolas at a cost of about $1 billion.
“And then,” Dec said, “we just hear ‘No.’ ... This latest iteration was, ‘We don’t have enough staff and no.’”
So the one time Dec and other local guides heard yes, they were elated.
In 2016, the Salt Lake Ranger District agreed to issue temporary, six-month permits to guides and outfitters via a lottery. Whether they wanted to take clients fishing, lead climbing seminars or run avalanche clinics, all the applications would be thrown in together.
Four to eight applicants would then be randomly selected to receive 50 to 100 “visitor-use days” for one of the open seasons, which run from January to June and July to December. A “visitor-use day” is typically calculated as one client for the majority of the day. So, if a guide took two people backcountry touring for a day, that would use two days of his or her allotment. A total of 400 days were allotted to temporary permit holders every six months. In comparison, the district spreads 6,000 visitor use days per year among its six tenured permit holders.
Before the district put the program on pause this fall, temporary permits allowed a variety of businesses, new and old, to gain access to the forest. But the plan came with drawbacks. For one, six-month permits create a lot of paperwork for the already undermanned district. Plus, just because a guiding service gets a permit one season doesn’t mean it will get it the next. That makes managing employees, equipment and budgets extremely difficult.
“I’ll take that over nothing,” Dec said. “But yeah, it is a crazy way to do a business.”
Dec and other guides are sympathetic to the district’s plight. They understand that the office is short-staffed. However, they argue that doesn’t explain why for years it has done nothing to expand the number of permits nor issue them for longer terms.
“It is not just a hiring thing, because they had two [more] people,” Passey said. “Now those people are gone, but they did have the people and they didn’t do it when they had them.”
A ranger district overwhelmed
The Salt Lake Ranger District wants to expand the program, according to Scott Frost, the deputy district ranger.
Frost will soon take over for Beckee Hotze, the district ranger who has accepted a position in Wyoming’s Bridger-Teton National Forest. In addition to needing to fill his current position and the opening for a special permits manager, the district is without a winter sports program manager. That person oversees ski area permits among other duties. Both permit manager positions have been vacant for almost a year. Frost indicated the lag is typical of the U.S. Forest Service but still inconvenient. He also noted that the number of requests the district receives for the canyons likely makes those jobs more taxing than similar ones in other districts or forests.
However, once the district gains back more staff, he said, he is open to exploring other permit options, including creating some with longer durations.
“Some of it has to do with our capacity to process it, but I think also we’re interested in going that route when we have [the staff],” Frost said. “I think hopefully that would create a little less backlog in the temporary arena, but also a more sustainable business plan for some of these outfitters and guides that have provided a need to the Forest Service and also have been in good standing.”
Frost expressed optimism that the district could bring in a temporary employee this fall who might be able to process the short-term guiding and outfitting permits for next fall. However, greater obstacles remain along the path to longer-term permits.
Why send more people to a popular destination?
The biggest issue, from the Forest Service’s point of view, is the popularity of the Central Wasatch.
Little Cottonwood Canyon, Big Cottonwood Canyon and Millcreek Canyon combined saw 3.2 million visitors last year, according to a recently released report by the Central Wasatch Commission. That’s slightly less than twice as many as Arches National Park (1.8 million), which is comparable in size. Their proximity to the Salt Lake Valley and their recreational riches, including world-renowned granite climbing and skiing, make the forests under the Salt Lake Ranger District’s supervision some of the busiest in the entire country.
The Forest Service therefore sees no reason to drive more visitors to the area via guided outings. A needs assessment has validated that decision, according to Crystal Young, a spokesperson for the Uinta-Wasatch-Cache regional district.
“Due to the high public use of the [Salt Lake Ranger District], especially in the Tri-Canyon area,” Young wrote in an email, “[the Salt Lake Ranger District] has determined that the area does not currently have capacity for additional priority use permits, and therefore is not currently accepting applications or undergoing analysis.”
The guides, however, say the growing number of visitors to the area is exactly why they are needed. Not only do they spread forest visitation out to less-trafficked areas, but they also teach forest stewardship and can serve as first responders when others get into trouble. Most guides have extensive first-aid and avalanche rescue training.
John Mletschnig, the owner of Backcountry Pros, said he has helped evacuate injured climbers and backcountry skiers. He has also picked up litter and scrubbed graffiti off rocks.
“We’re literally the only people with boots on the ground,” Mletschnig said. “We’re there to educate and to help when we can. And when we’re not there, it’s a disservice to the public.”[/QUOTE}
continued.....
[QUOTE=Salt Lake Trib]
Part of the problem, the guides say, is that the agency’s current Forest Plan Revision lumps outfitters in with other commercial interests such as mining and logging. That plan isn’t expected to be updated for at least 5 years.
A needs assessment could be done sooner — if the district can get the staffing in place — and according to Frost is probably the better tool for gauging whether more or longer-term permits are necessary. If the next iteration says there’s a need for more guides or a certain type of program, he said he’s willing to facilitate that. No limits exist on the number of long-term permits that can be issued. However, he said the district would like to keep the number of visitor-use days to around 6,000.
Meanwhile, most other National Forest districts within the state have created or are embarking on systems to offer more stability to their most reliable vendors. In the Flaming Gorge District of the Ashley National Forest, spokesperson Lewis Haynes said, guides and outfitters always start on temporary permits. After a few years, the terms of their permit can be extended if there’s enough demand for their services so that it doesn’t cut into the stakes of tenured permit holders.
In the Uinta-Wasatch-Cache forest, the Logan District is about to embark on issuing six-month temporary-use permits alongside its tenured permits. Bryce Parker, the district’s special use permit administrator, said he’d like to see companies apply for temporary permits for at least three years before considering switching them to tenured status.
“I think it’s bound to create some conflict with our priority-use permit holders. They might feel like their toes are being stepped on,” Parker said. “But they’ve had it pretty good for a long time [with] no competition.”
The Ogden Ranger District, which Parker also manages, is under the supervision of a different district ranger and does not currently offer temporary permits to guides and outfitters.
While they wait for the permit lottery to be reinstated and for the Salt Lake Ranger District to weigh options for creating more sustainable permits, guides are exploring other trails. Some will spend the next six months working for Utah Mountain Adventures. Others will have to coax clients wanting avalanche classes or ice climbing excursions to travel to other forests where they have secured permits. And the outfitters seem to agree that a few will continue to lead excursions deep into the Central Wasatch without a permit because that’s where people want to go.
“It’s pretty broken and an ongoing source of frustration,” Dec said of the district’s permitting process. “And it impacts not only the outfitters, but really the access for the public.”
[/QUOTE}
I do agree with you. Hopefully my og comment didn't come off as argumentive. Overall, its just a broken system and it sucks for local guides, especially when they claim the canyons are at capacity but want to build a gondi to get more people in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dshack89
I infer "at capacity" to mean vehicles, not people.Quote:
Originally Posted by brutah
If its who i think it is (snowboarder?), that guy will slide down anything. Really loves what he's doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldskibum
He absolutely nails a rock right at the end of the clip. Could easily be a tib/fib or similar season ender.Quote:
Originally Posted by tBatt
If you're not going full throttle down little chute what are you even doing? https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzKWy...BiNWFlZA%3D%3D
tearing off bitch ticket #1
https://www.parksolitude.com/copy-of-tap-n-ski
i would be displeased if I bought an Ikon pass to ski at solitude and could not ski 3 days of the week without paying for parking on a daily basis because they sold out of weekend parking passes before I got one
would be interesting to see how many full passes solitude deems is the max too
Also
This is in the FAQ but i cannot find any more details?Quote:
the Town of Brighton will be requiring parking reservations for roadside parking on SR-190 between Willow Heights trailhead and Guardsman Pass Road on select days
They better differentiate between Solitude and Brighton parking otherwise you might have a bitch of a walk if your reservation just gets you a spot 'somewhere' on the hwy
^ lol if you park 1.5 mi up the road and come back to a ticket.
One would think a ride share app would take off give all the parking issues. If I ever ski bcc/LCC on the regular again I'll just stand at the bottom. What sucks about this plan is the fucking meth heads smashing windows at the park and rides all the time .
Ski Utah’s ski resort parking guide seems helpful for trying to decipher everything:
https://www.skiutah.com/resources/ski-resort-parking/
and it just goes to show how superior it is to ski in PC with free parking at the canyons….
Knock on wood, but I often park at the PNR lots and have never had an issue w theft. I’ve certainly heard of smash n grabs and catalytic converters getting swiped. But so far hasn’t happened to me or anyone I know (other than someone on here few years back). The bigger issue with those lots is they fill up fast, typically by 730-8am (or earlier) on the weekends….
Gave Brock Landers a ride up the canyon feb 5th of last season, PNR at the base of Little.
Attachment 474938
Attachment 474939
Came back to that.
I've unfortunately come back to that scene more than once.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobMc
When I was climbing in Little a lot I used to leave a note on my dash saying "car unlocked, no valuables inside".
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So if I've got an IKON and I don't want to use my Bird day and just go to Sorry Dude and get there before 11am, it's $20 or $35 and the bus sucks? And I can't go to Alta anymore on the base pass?
Kinda seems like everyone loses
No, no, no - with these multi-resort passes we all win!! That's what I've been told.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles
I don't even know if I get bitch tickets but I'll try and recover to avoid getting charged. Stoked for by Bird day and will plan on getting the most outa them by going bell to bell and getting rides from my friends with parking season passes.
No way man. Parking is free at the base of the canyons. You just get to be stressed all day that all your shit will be gone and glass smashed while your stressed about crowds and liftlines while having fun skiing. Totally relaxing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles
Wasatch PNR and TH lots are practically paved with glass.
Lol
UPD would patrol the lots, but they're too busy checking tires.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
Unofficial Networks posted an article about the sticker program, UDOT said they are advocating for the program "partially to get into healthy habits ahead of the implementation of Phase 1 for the traffic improvement plan for Little Cottonwood Canyon". So they put tolls in place, add a bunch of buses, restrict roadside parking and add a mobility hub at the gravel pit. As much as I try I don't see any connection between the worthless stickers and Phase 1, just more nonsense from the powers that be.
Funny considering I pulled a UPD rig out of the Collins base area (trying to drive up the mtn?!) at midnight a couple nights ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Touring_Sedan
He was going to investigate a flashing light on corkscrew.
It was a snowgun.
Wow
Back when Sgt. Slaughter, (yes, that was his name) was running the unit it was pretty solid. Apparently less so now.Quote:
Originally Posted by tBatt
He wasn't pleased when I yelled "hey you can't park there" out my window.
Attachment 475099
Was he on drugs hahaha?
No seriously, was he on drugs? WTF
A decade ago UPD came to the conclusion that canyon patrol was too cushy of an assignment. So they decided to limit the amount of time their officers could be assigned to canyon patrol, I think 2 years is the max. So now instead of having offices that know the canyons, they have a revolving door of canyon rookies.
Gotta love the all the previous tries on the driver's side, like three?Quote:
Originally Posted by tBatt
Ain't no quitter, that fella...
"it was my last try, too!"
-"You better not try again after we tug you out"
He didn't like that comment much, either.
That is really a WTF moment - does UPD usually try and drive up ski resorts??Quote:
Originally Posted by tBatt
I would not be the least bit surprised if, while trail running or biking, I came across a UPD cruiser half way up any of the resorts. If anything like the cops in my hometown, probably with some highschool blonde they are manipulating into some ol’ fashioned hide the salami
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This is the best stoke of the season so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by tBatt
The last three pages on parking didn't do it for ya eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by brutah
hahaha it is technically parking stoke i guess....
maybe tgapp should change the thread title to the wasatch parking thread