Treat yourself to some proper liners. Those OG orange ones suck.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalated
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Treat yourself to some proper liners. Those OG orange ones suck.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalated
Most of my days in these boots have been with other liners.Quote:
Originally Posted by doebedoe
I mean you are comparing a TPU boot (mine) to a much softer shell (grilamid?) in your pair there :) We design the Mindbender to be a hard wearing boot admittedly at the expense of a slight weight hit, these are around 1800g. If you look at the heel and toe areas ours are comparable but that midsole just has way more wear on yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalated
I appreciate you sharing your expertise, but you are dipping into some "slight" marketing BS that you should save for another crowd. onenerdykid has earned a lot of respect and trust here by recognizing his audience.Quote:
Originally Posted by tompietrowski
As Adrenalated said, those boots look pretty minty regardless of material.
But these Boa boots are pretty beat. The soles are shredded. Lot of rocks. Original liners thrashed. And no boa issues (and I believe this is an older generation boa).
Attachment 470352
I think boa can be durable on a ski boot beyond my personal sample size of one (uh.... two, I guess). I'd have to ski some boa and non-boa boots with the same last back to back to swear that it is a better solution, but I've heard enough people I respect attest to the advantage that I suspect it's more than a gimmick.
But with any newish tech I worry about unforeseen problems. Even if the BOA itself is solid, will every manufacturer integrate it properly? What are the implications for boot mods? How much does the location of the wheel and the surrounding plastic matter (my gut says the K2 design is better)? I'm sure designers considered all these things carefully, but we all know that the real testing for ski gear is done by the customers (see all the "innovative" but flawed tech bindings we've seen or Salmon Quests with glued-in tech fittings). I'll wait a year before considering any of these boots.
All I was getting at is its not really relevant to compare a TPU boot to a PA boot, obviously the PA boot is going to get beaten up much more. We use TPU for that exact reason that was all I was getting at and the fact they look minty as you say after use at least partly backs that up. Sorry if that comes over as marketing BS but we select materials for different products based on the end use and how we want the product to perform. We could build the Mindbender from pebax or grillamid to save weight if that was the goal of the product but that's not what we wanted. We wanted a more durable boot which skis like an alpine boot hence the choice to go TPU. Perhaps this is common knowledge for all here but its not everywhere so my apologies if this sort of info on products is not appreciated here.Quote:
Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!
But that's not really the point, the reason I posted the image was to show the dial damage and the fact it can sustain damage like that and not pop off so or stop the system for functioning as intended.
Re: your points:Quote:
Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!
- every manufacturer has to get each shell size approved by BOA. BOA is quite strict on the placement of each component, the lace angles each component creates, and how each component is integrated into the shell.
- the protective shell ramp has a minimum height specified by BOA and BOA needs to sign off on its effectiveness.
- the BOA system doesn't really get in the way of customizing the shell. You can even stretch the dial area.
My point was that backcountry skiing, especially sleds and bootpacking through talus (both of which are common use cases for me), beats the FUCK out of boots, especially on the outside of the lower shell where the Boa dial is positioned on all these new boots. Softer/harder plastic or not, the boot posted above looks like it was skied primarily in the resort or skinning which is fine but it doesn't tell me anything about real world backcountry durability for my use case. IMO there isn't a lot of abuse evident on that dial pictured. Don't just look at the plastics, look at my buckles - somehow I haven't broken one yet, but I've needed to bend them back straight many times because they just get beat to all hell.
If placing the dial on the top of the boot is a non starter due to restrictions from Boa or whatever, I get that. But I'd still feel a lot more comfortable shelling out $900+ for a first generation boot if the dial was placed in a location that I know is less likely to experience heavy abuse, even if it were slightly less effective at fully wrapping the foot. As it is I'll probably limp my boots through another season and see how they hold up for people that do the kind of skiing I do. Plus hopefully some lower volume options will exist by then.
Yeah makes sense. Yeah I don’t personally have any boots with boa with worse damage to show I’m afraid. But I will say I’m confident with the way we built up the shell around the dial and the testing we have done that the position of the dial will not be an issue for most users.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalated
But your comment of repositioning the dial is an interesting one. The top of the foot is not the position to move it in my opinion but that’s not to say there is not a different position for it. We have tried some but currently we have not found one which works any better than the current solution. I have seen one very interesting placement of the lower dial for a race boot which is intriguing though so is this the final placement who knows but for now I do believe this is the best solution.
What got me was the word "slight." These new boots and the recent growth of this category seems to all signal a shift in the market driven not by a core demographic of backcountry skiers, but by a group of backcountry-curious skiers who will own a single pair of boots. Sure, a PU touring boots makes sense for sled skiers, but we know they aren't all that plentiful.Quote:
Originally Posted by tompietrowski
I have nothing against a heavy touring boot, and would own a pair if they fit my skiing habits, but I was a lot more excited when companies were focused on finding the balance that maximized uphill and downhill capability. The weight gain for the XTD is especially disappointing as the original version was a damn good touring boot. When that boot came out, along with the Zero G Tour Pro, it felt like a 20 year dream realized. Finally the compromises when going uphill and downhill were very, very small and they didn't fit like Kleenex boxes! But now this segment of the market has stalled. Those boots are what, 4 and 5 years old? When will we see the next step forward?
If the PU shell adds around 150-200g (good guess?) I'd say that isn't "slight" at all. Then you add things like a grip walk sole and a 400g liner and you've got a mediocre touring boot that doesn't ski as well as 10 year alpine boots from the thrift store. That's still a useful product for lift accessed touring or sled skiing or for the 230 pound linebacker-turned-ski-mountaineer. I'm glad those folks are going to have some better options. But if they sell like hotcakes it'll be as the lift line jewelry du jour along the lines of Shifts mounted on a pair of pink Black Crows.
In other words, I'm selfish. I see all the cool new boots for the skinny ski and lycra crowd, and I see all the emphasis on refining 50-50 boots and I think, "What about me?" So when I hear about a "slight weight hit" for boots than weigh more than 20 year old Scarpa Lasers after they've been stiffened up with a Flexon tongue, I roll my eyes like a co-ed getting hit on by Benny Profane.
I hope it all works as planned. Good to know about stretching the dial area.Quote:
Originally Posted by onenerdykid
Got it makes way more sense now. Yeah I guess it comes down to what these boots all are. I in no way consider the Mindbender a touring boot, we class them as freeride but in all honesty they are alpine boots with walk modes and tech inserts. People actually using these to "tour" in are using Dukes or shifts these are not being used for long missions. They are for accessing gnarly terrain and skiing aggressively, at least that's the ideal. The reality is these are used inbounds 85% of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!
Compared to the XTD I would say that's much closer to our Dispatch boot. Those are 1500g and they actually tour pretty well for what we call a free tour boot. Again not for huge missions but if you want to get out there on slightly longer day trips these are a massive step forward in comparison to the Mindbender. The 300G saving mainly comes from the shell although the liner is now actually the same and they do ski ok but they dont ski like an alpine boot which is what you get from the Mindbender.
It would be great to devote more to this style of boot but unfortunately its a real niche. Where freeride boots like the MB sell ok, although sales are tiny compared to alpine boots, free tour boots are magnitudes smaller still. And the touring market has really stalled post covid, which makes it harder still. But it will come back and we will work on it again its just unfortunately for a small team like ours we can only work on one shell family a season so devoting a year to a niche product is tough.
As someone still skiing my Gen1 XTD Ultras which weighs in at 1350g in 27.5 -- this sentiment explains why I haven't bought new touring boots in 5 years. I can trade off 2-300g and get better walking for something that skis significantly worse. Or I can just struggle on with a 1350g boot that skis like a near-alpine boot. I've done week long hut trips with >4k a day in them.Quote:
Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!
If I could find a 12-1400g boot that walked better than my XTD and skied similarly I'd pay good money. But so far I save 150g for a boot that walks way way better, but skis way worse. Maybe I'm overlooking something obvious....
Attachment 470423
Just chiming in to say that it’s super cool to have two principal product designers of industry-leading companies bantering back and forth with all of us over-opinionated weirdos.
From the long view, pre-exodus from powmag (and k2 before that… full circle!)…whodathunkit.
Thanks ONK and Tom for even indulging the conversation. The fact that you’re doing it says everything we need to know.
Maybe this boa thing isn’t for you. 30 years ago when I was almost strong, I broke the shit out of every boot I owned, especially I knocked buckles off. The Lang rep told me to get plug boots which I did, (I broke buckles on those too, but nothing else). I also don’t like the boa on my F1 LT’s so my new hawx ultra XTD’s don’t have the boa. I’m giving it a few years. And yes, I know that the atomic hawx boa is 50 million times stronger than my boa on my Scarpa.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalated
I briefly looked and didn't see anyone link to this relevant Blister podcast:
https://blisterreview.com/podcasts/g...ss-herr-ep-262
Molitor from 1967, ahead of their time:
https://cdn3.volusion.com/2xsju.tuv9...r-buckle-2.jpg
Note the toe groove for the simplex toe.
This was sent to me from a shop in SwitzerlandQuote:
Originally Posted by Buster Highmen
Attachment 474008
In my experience for typical mid-winter touring I'll prioritize range of motion and ski quality over weight and would much rather have a heavier boot that walked better than a lighter boot that walks worse. That changes in the spring when big traverses and volcano skiing is more typical but not for mid-winter fall line pow laps.Quote:
Originally Posted by doebedoe
I think you finished by describing the design brief for boots like the Backland XTD. I've tried them on but have not bought a pair (although I'm close to doing it) and they walk around the carpet comparably to the other Backlands that I have (many pairs already) but they feel more substantial. It's hard to say if they'll have better progression in their flex but that's the feel I got. I don't care to ski the Backlands because they are stiff until they aren't, slightly modified they are perfect for splitboarding but I'm not really sure how someone can say they ski well.
I have a pair of these somewhere:Quote:
Originally Posted by tompietrowski
https://www.heschung-magazine.com/wp...72-300x300.jpg
Heschung, worn by Patrick Russel of the French Ski team, circa 1969-70
https://retro-skiing.com/wp-content/...rickRussel.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c8/ec...33aec034cf.jpg
Heschung was a fringe choice, I had Le Trappeur Pros as well as the Rossignol Stratos and the Look non-releasable turntables.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster Highmen
After trying on a number of Boa boots, I’m less excited about them as I was last spring. I’m not sure my final thoughts but they seem to have less advantages and more drawbacks than people talk about. I’ll try to summarize my random thoughts and see what others think about it.
Unless the boot fits perfectly, the boa creates many pressure points. Just like a buckle boot. The Hawx ultra fits me quite tight from the box so the boa doesn’t need to do much and therefore has no effect for me. The Salomon is very roomy and the Boa is unable to tighten the ankle sufficiently, but creates large downward pressure under the Boa dial. The K2 is roomy and cinches up very smoothly with the boa but to get tight enough, it still creates and obvious band of pressure under the dial and across the first length of cable. Basically no difference over buckles, the shell just needs to be fit properly.
The boa dial is slow. I can do up a buckle much faster than I can spin a dial ten times.
It’s harder to get into, marginally. I don’t normally struggle to get into boots but you definitely can’t open the boot up as far. The boa dial on the k2 liner makes this even worse.
You can independently control the tension in different areas of the boot. I want to lock in my ankle but have my toes loose and the boa has no way of doing this. Will be a deal breaker for touring especially.
Manually punching the shells is more challenging. Atomic’s large rigid deflector shield right at the 6th toe does not look friendly to work with.
As I said, I could see if being real slick with a snug fitting boot and I’d love to try it in a fitted Hawx ultra. But alas, Amer has destroyed the shop proform program so I doubt that will ever happen.
Agree with much of this, I'm in a Hawx Ultra XTD 130 Boa and am quite happy with it. As you note, each manufacturer who participated in the Boa development program picked a "volume" to add it to, with Fischer and Salomon going medium volume (the K2 variable 97-100mm last is really more like 99-102mm). Atomic was the only one to put Boa on a low volume shell. FWIW, I would never choose an RC4 MV, Salomon S/Pro, or K2 Mindbender even with buckles as the fit is too roomy. This is a function of manufacturer choice of which last to put the Boa on rather than a fault of the Boa itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBC
I've punched a couple Atomic Ultra Boa boots without issue, but the metal tab wants to pop out (you can bend it with a couple screwdrivers while on the press) and you need some sort of arch device (not a ring) to span the protective "ramp."
Yes, the Boa liner on the K2 sucks - they should have made the laces about 2" longer, and even so they get tangled inside the shell every time you put it on.
IMO, the Boa on the Hawx Ultra XTD is more comfortable over the instep, and you can leave it very loose while skinning without your foot sliding fore/aft . . .
Next season will see a bunch more Boa options, presumably some with low volume fits.
Like Greg I found the Boa on the Atomic to loosen the boot quite a bit when undone and tighten the instep a lot when secured. I guess it all depends on one's foot; which really isn't a terrible surprise
I think what he was saying is that it tends to hold his instep securely without being too tight on the toes, so he doesn't need independent control to have comfort while touring.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeLau
I could potentially agree with that as I find that I have to generally over tighten the instep to get the forefoot tighter. That could equate to a decent heel hold with roomy toes while loosened while touring, potentially. It also means my forefoot isn't tight enough when my instep is already too tight. So back to my issue, lack of independent control kind of sucks for people who like to currently use all their buckles.
Right, I meant it can be left surprisingly loose (visible slack in the cable system) and your foot doesn't slide fore and aft while skinning.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBC
I've had a couple people with low volume feet insist on trying the K2 and Salomon Boa boots, and complain that they can't get it tight enough for their tastes. (i.e. the Boa can't make the "wrong" last into the "right" last). The Mindbender 130 Boa is already their LV "97-100mm" fit . . . maybe the rumored 96mm plug Boa boot Tom P. has mentioned will be a solution. Hopefully Salomon has an S/Pro Alpha Boa ready for next season. Atomic will add Boa to the Hawx Prime lineup next season, for now the only real low volume Boa option is the Hawx Ultra XTD.
Ok. Golden and Greg. On that I agree.
I would add that the Boa ( to me) seemed to give an even feel of tightening over the entire foot
Ya know…all these Boa observations during this first season reminds me a lot of the observations folks have after buying an AT binding in the first season.
Well, I got mine in March of last season, so have skied them a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by plugboots
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeLau
Out of curiousity, were you able to test that on two identical boots? I would think that would have more to do with a proper fit than boa. While it does offer a unique tightening experience, if the boot doesn’t fit your foot evenly, you have no ability to compensate with Boa.
I know. Thanks for your help, BTW.Quote:
Originally Posted by gregL
The mindbender is not an LV boot it is a MV boot with an last range which can vary but as we have said alot the heel and other areas will not adapt so these are still MV boots. We have HV coming next season and then LV the year after that, we are out in Austria testing the LV boot this week actually. But yeah just because the last has a bigger range does not mean the BOA boots will fit all feet, you still need to get the volume correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by gregL
I will admit our marketing has not been great saying this can replace an LV and MV boot but that is only K2's LV and MV buckle boots. Like lange we use a system where the “MV” and “LV” use the same internal last which only changes the width at the forefoot. So although we have been saying LV and MV for years we should have been saying MV with two different lasts. So yes our BOA boots replace what we call LV and MV, that does not mean BOA replace the need for a true LV boot.
This is exactly right. BOA will improve the fit of a boot in a shell which is a decent shape for a foot and it will also help a bigger range of people fit in a boot but it will not make a shell magically fit any foot.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBC
We have heard this feedback quite a bit. I thought the added fit and the performance offered was worth it for a 130/115 customer but we are being told otherwise. We have instead reverted back to a standard lace liner in the 130/115 next season and we be releasing a new BOA liner in F24 in the 140/125 boots which is much easier to put on while still offering the same performance advantages.Quote:
Originally Posted by gregL
I've owned a Scarpa F1 for years with a Boa. It always had a high volume instep so even the Boa didn't give me that unique tightening experience. Solved the fit with a volumizer fwiw.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBC
To someone else upthread who commented re the first year Boa. They've been used in ski boots and on snowboard boots for while
Over 20 years in snowboard boots now. Have you had the chance to try our mindbender boa yet lee? I forgot I was meant to find you a pair.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeLau
I know. But not the new honking big dial on alpine boots. They’re having similar growing pains with the system that is similar to new AT bindings.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeLau
I own 4 pairs of cycling shoes, all boa, I own F1LT’s, etc. I’ve used Boa since it was introduced/invented.
What growing pains are they having? I don’t like them so much but they’ve been selling well, don’t seem to break and have a standardized adoption through the industry?
It’s not anything dramatic like the Shift problems, but like Greg’s example of the K2 cable getting tangled. I just won’t buy almost anything in the early, (typically first year of general public), release of a product. How many changes did they make to the Tecton/Vipec? (I lost track.) I wanted to buy it, but since the Hawx was available in a buckle option I’ll wait.
Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
To be fair, no one but K2 used a Boa on the liner. Salomon has this weird elastic thing on the liner that goes over the instep, but that's not a function of the Boa.Quote:
Originally Posted by plugboots
Interestingly, each manufacturer has their own approach to protecting the Boa knob - Atomic has a beefy ramp in front, K2 has a more minimalist lip all the way around, Salomon is mostly built up under the knob, Fischer has a half moon to the front . . . remains to be seen whose Boas fall off most frequently.
Greg was referring to the cable on the liner. If it’s pulled loose it can go through the instep when putting the boots on but you just tighten the liner and it pulls in fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by plugboots