Tree well rescue at Mt Baker

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

IMO, the rear skier is fucked if they go in a treewell, even if you are fairly close to your front partner it would take 30+mins for a partner to climb back up 30 yards in steep bottomless snow and then dig you out. Its just not realistic to be so close to an uphill partner and be so hyper aware that you can stop within a second or two of them taking a digger.

When my wife and i ski trees together she loses sight of me in 2 turns and so she just follows my tracks to ensure we go the same direction but also to find me if they end at the bottom of a tree. Vice-versa, when i follow her, i follow her... no veering off to random fun terrain i see.

An oldschool avalung is what i pull out of the closet on deep days. Gives me a little peace of mind that i can almost certainly get the mouthpiece into my mouth and breathe for an extended period until someone hopefully find me.

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Agree with avalung for deep trees. Seems like the only realistic self support option when stuck in a tree well.

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Originally Posted by altasnob

Thanks. So not true backcountry. I don't even consider this area sidecountry since you can ski in, and ski out, without hiking at all. Any shmuck can ski this run, and they do. You can throw a baseball from a groomed run to the area of this incident.

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Sidecountry is backcountry, regardless of whether you can return to the area easily. To be sidecountry, that means it is not avy controlled or patrolled. Thus, backcountry. Just backcountry that is skied a lot.

That is beyond lucky.

Not his time.

A friend and I decided to ski a run at the same time so we could keep an eye on each other. The low angle run was through untracked tress and ended at an open bench about 300’ below. He started on my left side and we hit the open bench almost simultaneously with him on my right. I did not spot him once after we started and he said that he didn’t even get a glimpse of me. One of us skied over the other’s tracks and didn’t even notice. If you’re not actually visually following someone, or their tracks, they’re skiing alone and, if you’re last, you’d better be careful.

I keep coming back to how the skier split a tight goalpost.

The only way to be safe is by giving trees a large margin.

I was in a tree well once. Scary as fuck. Had to grab branches and use my poles to clip out. But I was a hack back then and tripped and tatered into a hole. Wasn’t super close to the tree but gravity put me headfirst into the well.

My wife is super scared of tree wells. But doesn’t understand them. She thinks they exist in New England.
But. A healthy awareness and giving trees space is a good thing.

PS. The idea of skiing with a partner in trees is almost comical. Almost. The one thing that works is your partner waiting for you and being able to tell patrol what run you were on and where your partner might be.

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Originally Posted by Danno

Sidecountry is backcountry, regardless of whether you can return to the area easily. To be sidecountry, that means it is not avy controlled or patrolled. Thus, backcountry. Just backcountry that is skied a lot.

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That may what you, patrol, and ski area management want to believe but that is not reality. Reality is places like where this incident occurred are jong slaughtered by the clueless just as heavy as the in bounds right next by. I'm not saying that is right or wrong, that is just the reality and it is impossible to police it.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

IMO, the rear skier is fucked if they go in a treewell, even if you are fairly close to your front partner it would take 30+mins for a partner to climb back up 30 yards in steep bottomless snow and then dig you out.

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I treat tree skiing, and particularly tree snowboarding, in deep snow in the Cascades as fall you die terrain. Skiing with partners and skiing with gear isn't going to save you. Just don't fall. And if you are not confident that you won't fall, then ski somewhere more wide open. It will take a miracle, like in this video, to save someone fully submerged in a tree well. Most of the time, you can't even see the person from the surface and by the time you get to them with avy gear, they are dead. If are on a snowboard, you can't ski slow through the trees with a partner. You have to charge it or you are getting stuck on the flats in a wallow fest.

The Cascades are particularly bad for tree wells because not only do we get a shit ton of snow, we have big trees with big branches that create gaping, unconsolidated, cavernous spaces in which to fall into.

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Originally Posted by altasnob

That may what you, patrol, and ski area management want to believe but that is not reality. Reality is places like where this incident occurred are jong slaughtered by the clueless just as heavy as the in bounds right next by. I'm not saying that is right or wrong, that is just the reality and it is impossible to police it.



I treat tree skiing, and particularly tree snowboarding, in deep snow in the Cascades as fall you die terrain. Skiing with partners and skiing with gear isn't going to save you. Just don't fall. And if you are not confident that you won't fall, then ski somewhere more wide open. It will take a miracle, like in this video, to save someone fully submerged in a tree well. Most of the time, you can't even see the person from the surface and by the time you get to them with avy gear, they are dead. If are on a snowboard, you can't ski slow through the trees with a partner. You have to charge it or you are getting stuck on the flats in a wallow fest.

The Cascades are particularly bad for tree wells because not only do we get a shit ton of snow, we have big trees with big branches that create gaping, unconsolidated, cavernous spaces in which to fall into.

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Thanks for clearing up the “difference” between side country and backcountry. The tutorial on tree wells in the Cascades is especially enlightening.

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Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn

The tutorial on tree wells in the Cascades is especially enlightening.

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Good to hear, although since you exclusively ski East of the crest you wouldn't understand as you only have spindly little lodge poles, an occasional needle-less larch, and a general lack of snow.

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Originally Posted by altasnob

That may what you, patrol, and ski area management want to believe but that is not reality. Reality is places like where this incident occurred are jong slaughtered by the clueless just as heavy as the in bounds right next by. I'm not saying that is right or wrong, that is just the reality and it is impossible to police it.

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Who said anything about policing it? And I also said that it might be "backcountry that is skied a lot." Simple questions with simple answers. Is it patrolled? Is avy mitigation done for it? No? Then backcountry. You can argue with that because we all know how much you love arguing, but no amount of people skiing on it changes the simple equation. Berthoud Pass here in Colorado is skied all the time, and lots of people fall into the trap of thinking it is "safe" because it is skied so much. It's not, it's backcountry, expecting the same standards as exists inbounds is a mistake, both in safety and in rescue. Regardless of whether the great Altasnob deems it "backcountry" or not. Seriously, this is fucking "skiing out the gates 101."

And it can be policed. There are mountains where they'll clip your ticket for ducking the ropes and re-entering. I've known a few guys over the years who've been caught poaching closed areas at various mountains that resulted in pass cancellation/banning. Hit Elf Chutes on a sketchy day when the canyon is closed and find out!

Not only is Danno right, it's worse. Sidecountry is a made-up concept to downplay potential risk.

Sidecountry is lift accessed backcountry.
That’s the definition.

You don’t have to earn every turn.
But they are both the same in terms of snow stability and required skills.

In fact it wouldn’t surprise me to find some google something that sidecountry as a term was created for the express purpose of making people think more about the consequences.

So I would argue sidecountry as a term was created to tie it into backcountry as backcountry started getting more popular. To get people to think more about terrain and consequences

Decades ago it was just called ducking the rope.

Maybe I've been living under a rock but the primary people I've ever seen claim that sidecountry is a term designed to indicate some sort of risk are the people decrying that its designed to downplay said risk.

The almost universal use is to describe ease of access (aka: lift-accessed backcountry) and whenever an accident or death happens in these zones the online discourse seems to eventually devolve into these two viewpoints arguing past each other.

It's funny how tree wells are now considered so dangerous. I grew up skiing Alpy and we chased the deepest pow we could find, always, and never any tree well issues. I only ski backcountry now and for the past 18 years exclusively via sled access in the Cascades (the supposed heartland of this type of danger) and still never any issues with tree wells, for me or any of my partners. Tree wells are actually a useful terrain feature for mountain sledding, because you can use them to reset when you lose your line climbing in steep trees. Based on the hysterics, you'd think taking a step off the sled in these situations would be deadly. But it's not even an issue. It makes me wonder how often the people who wind up dead in tree wells hit their head on the tree on the way in. I also wonder if the guy in the video was doing something else (looking for a place to smoke weed or take a dump) when he fell in there. How else would you end up head first in a hole on the downhill side of a patch of relatively small, but seemingly impenetrable trees?

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Originally Posted by Wapow

It's funny how tree wells are now considered so dangerous. I grew up skiing Alpy and we chased the deepest pow we could find, always, and never any tree well issues. I only ski backcountry now and for the past 18 years exclusively via sled access in the Cascades (the supposed heartland of this type of danger) and still never any issues with tree wells, for me or any of my partners. Tree wells are actually a useful terrain feature for mountain sledding, because you can use them to reset when you lose your line climbing in steep trees. Based on the hysterics, you'd think taking a step off the sled in these situations would be deadly. But it's not even an issue. It makes me wonder how often the people who wind up dead in tree wells hit their head on the tree on the way in. I also wonder if the guy in the video was doing something else (looking for a place to smoke weed or take a dump) when he fell in there. How else would you end up head first in a hole on the downhill side of a patch of relatively small, but seemingly impenetrable trees?

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Cool story bro.


Next tell us how funny it is you think drunk driving is considered dangerous because you’ve driven drunk plenty of times and never killed anyone.

Dumb ass

Sidecountry is extra dangerous backcountry because people run it lax and you get exposed to hazard created by crowds

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Originally Posted by Wapow

I only ski backcountry now and for the past 18 years exclusively via sled access in the Cascades (the supposed heartland of this type of danger) and still never any issues with tree wells, for me or any of my partners.

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My guess is you've never fallen head first into a tree. If that happens on a deep day in the Cascades, you're probably fucked.

Also, there is a major difference in tree well danger at Baker than, say, the Teanaway. Baker has huge trees and huge snowfall. Alpental is similar but Baker definitely takes the treewell danger cake.

Crystal trims the bottoms of a lot of their trees that are in highly skied areas. Not only makes more space for skiing but eliminates the tree well danger. The tree is still there to hit your head on but you don't have the deep unconsolidated snow around the base.

True. Especially for snowboarders. Toe side fall upslope from a tree, go head first down under the canopy, snow filling in from above, and the bottom branches can hide whatever is still above the surface.

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Originally Posted by AK47bp

Cool story bro.


Next tell us how funny it is you think drunk driving is considered dangerous because you’ve driven drunk plenty of times and never killed anyone.

Dumb ass

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LOL. You're fucking soft.

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Originally Posted by Wapow

LOL. You're fucking soft.

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Ouch.

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Originally Posted by AK47bp

Cool story bro.


Next tell us how funny it is you think drunk driving is considered dangerous because you’ve driven drunk plenty of times and never killed anyone.

Dumb ass

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“Take a lap, jong” has been under utilized lately. Would have been a fitting response.

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Originally Posted by summit

Sidecountry is extra dangerous backcountry because people run it lax and you get exposed to hazard created by crowds

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https://www.instagram.com/reel/CqnZs..._web_copy_link

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Originally Posted by altasnob

I treat tree skiing, and particularly tree snowboarding, in deep snow in the Cascades as fall you die terrain. Skiing with partners and skiing with gear isn't going to save you. Just don't fall. And if you are not confident that you won't fall, then ski somewhere more wide open. It will take a miracle, like in this video, to save someone fully submerged in a tree well. Most of the time, you can't even see the person from the surface and by the time you get to them with avy gear, they are dead. If are on a snowboard, you can't ski slow through the trees with a partner. You have to charge it or you are getting stuck on the flats in a wallow fest.

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I've been with some very good snowboarders in the BC who have no problems at all, but also some not so good ones. They have a really hard time not falling backwards when they stop in deep pow. And if they don't know any tricks for getting up it just gets worse (although those tricks usually involve you having some gear).

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Originally Posted by altasnob

Good to hear, although since you exclusively ski East of the crest you wouldn't understand as you only have spindly little lodge poles, an occasional needle-less larch, and a general lack of snow.

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You forgot the white bark and pondos, but you’re right there’s no snow. I’ve been skiing on dirt and basalt for 75 days

Yikes. That is freaky. I love the trees and have barely even thought of tree wells here in the Colorado front range. Good reminder.

Having lived in Colorado and Montana prior to the northwest, I didn't think much about them either. They are on a whole other level up here.

Patrol practice tree well rescue. Volunteer dives head first into a well:

https://unofficialnetworks.com/2022/...-well-ski/amp/

This one was posted at the bottom of the above article.

Dad close call with his kid.

https://youtu.be/84lt-3uc_Gc

How to rescue a moose from a treewell
https://youtu.be/H1FYIG8Rwdc

i was expecting a much smaller moose to come out!

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Originally Posted by Wapow

It's funny how tree wells are now considered so dangerous. I grew up skiing Alpy and we chased the deepest pow we could find, always, and never any tree well issues. I only ski backcountry now and for the past 18 years exclusively via sled access in the Cascades (the supposed heartland of this type of danger) and still never any issues with tree wells, for me or any of my partners. Tree wells are actually a useful terrain feature for mountain sledding, because you can use them to reset when you lose your line climbing in steep trees. Based on the hysterics, you'd think taking a step off the sled in these situations would be deadly. But it's not even an issue. It makes me wonder how often the people who wind up dead in tree wells hit their head on the tree on the way in. I also wonder if the guy in the video was doing something else (looking for a place to smoke weed or take a dump) when he fell in there. How else would you end up head first in a hole on the downhill side of a patch of relatively small, but seemingly impenetrable trees?

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What is your logic here? Just because something has never happened to you, that means it can't happen?

A skier died in a tree well at Alpental in 2016. I believe is was in the Felsen area:
https://livingsnoqualmie.com/skier-d...ing-tree-well/

One of my ski partners and long time Alpental skier recently relayed a tale from several years ago about how he had lost a ski in Felsen, was hiking up to get it, just happened to see a snowboarder who had slid to the bottom of a steep slope in a depression. Sluff had piled on top of him, and he was completely inverted and unable to move or breath. Not a tree well exactly, but a similar type of snow immersion. My friend dug him out quickly but said it was pure luck that he happened to be there and see him. If things played out differently it's almost certain this guy would have died.

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Originally Posted by Wapow

It's funny how tree wells are now considered so dangerous. I grew up skiing Alpy and we chased the deepest pow we could find, always, and never any tree well issues. I only ski backcountry now and for the past 18 years exclusively via sled access in the Cascades (the supposed heartland of this type of danger) and still never any issues with tree wells, for me or any of my partners. Tree wells are actually a useful terrain feature for mountain sledding, because you can use them to reset when you lose your line climbing in steep trees. Based on the hysterics, you'd think taking a step off the sled in these situations would be deadly. But it's not even an issue. It makes me wonder how often the people who wind up dead in tree wells hit their head on the tree on the way in. I also wonder if the guy in the video was doing something else (looking for a place to smoke weed or take a dump) when he fell in there. How else would you end up head first in a hole on the downhill side of a patch of relatively small, but seemingly impenetrable trees?

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https://www.deepsnowsafety.org/index.php/sis-numbers

deep snow generally can be sketch even inbounds. I once worked a NARSID where an elderly gentleman came over a roller, skied into the extra deep snow on the leeward side, punch front to vertical lawn dart. partner and others got to his airway in 7 minutes (took over 3 minutes just to hike up 50 feet), but still not fast enough.

lots of people underestimate how much strength it takes to get yourself out of that kind of situation. it's often just plain impossible solo. it happens very fast and unexpectedly and every second counts.

as said, just cuz it hasn't happened to you or your friends, doesn't mean it can't happen. kids are especially vulnerable

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Originally Posted by muted reborn

How to rescue a moose from a treewell
https://youtu.be/H1FYIG8Rwdc

i was expecting a much smaller moose to come out!

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Holy fuck.
Yeah. Full size moose in a tree well.

Great rescue effort.

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Originally Posted by Lvovsky

Patrol practice tree well rescue. Volunteer dives head first into a well:

https://unofficialnetworks.com/2022/...-well-ski/amp/

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That was so fucked up. Patroller should have had an avalung or a scuba tank. As soon as they clipped his skis he went deep. If they didn’t have shovels he’d be fucked.

And yet they said
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Here’s a list of tips from Whitewater if you ever find yourself in a similar situation:

If your partner gets stuck in a tree well, here are some tips to help get them out:

Don’t leave to get help – stay with your partner.

-Keep ski or board attached; this will stop them from going in deeper.

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Originally Posted by Core Shot

That was so fucked up. Patroller should have had an avalung or a scuba tank. As soon as they clipped his skis he went deep. If they didn’t have shovels he’d be fucked.

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Obviously they did this as a demo with multiple people on the ready. It's not that hard to create an air pocket when you know you are going in, and they established his airway first thing. I've held my breath longer getting thrashed in a hole while kayaking.

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Originally Posted by MarsB

Obviously they did this as a demo with multiple people on the ready. It's not that hard to create an air pocket when you know you are going in, and they established his airway first thing. I've held my breath longer getting thrashed in a hole while kayaking.

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Yes.
Demo example.
Established airway? Check.
Unclip skis? Check. Demonstrate that’s a bad idea. Check.
Go so fucking deep they couldn’t pull him out, with a strap wrapped around his boots, with two people yanking? Check.
Then dig dig dig. And dig. Check.
Even after the dig, still took two people on a bootstrap.

His reaction and words when finally extracted say a lot.
I wonder if he wants to do it again.

Yes, he had airway the whole time. But what if he didn’t after the ski release?

OSHA would have something to say if that demo didn’t work.

PS. I get that they intentionally unclipped his skis to show its a bad idea sometimes. But fuck. That dude disappeared like a full grown moose.

That moose video is nuckin futs.

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Originally Posted by Core Shot

That dude disappeared like a full grown moose.

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Sig worthy!



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Happy ending and some more details on the incident.

https://komonews.com/news/erics-hero...outdoor-sports

Great follow-up story, thanks for posting that.

Yes thank you for posting I enjoyed that article