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Sounds like there’s improvements to the cuff and pivots of Backland XTD that make it walk as well or better than the regular Backland. In that case have or will those changes filter down to the Backland or is it staying unchanged with the only advantage now being lighter weight?
I ordered a 27.5 from skiwest. Sometime after I ordered, they updated the pics on the website to be the black/red gripwalk boot, and that is what showed up. I want these as a pure touring boot, so I'll send them back and be patient for the rubber sole model to show up locally. But anyway, here are a few observations from a random guy to add to those from the esteemed gentlemen above.
TL;DR: goldilocks boot that fits like an atomic and slots in between the hawx and backland (duh).
I have a medium-wide forefoot, medium instep, skinny heel and ankle. Most boots give me heel slippage, most narrow last boots give me forefoot width problems. Current boots are backland carbon (boa model) and hawx prime xtd 130, both in 27.5. No work or memoryfit molds on either boot, intuition luxury in the hawx. I should probably be in an ultra instead of prime, but whatever, the liner solved my heel lift. Curiously, the nominally 98mm last backland carbon does not give me width issues. I had the previous carbon (orange tongues) and needed to bake that shell.
Not a surprise since I apparently have an Atomic foot, but Backland XTD fits me great, I don't think I'd need any work. Heel hold might be a slight issue, so I tested a tour wrap liner in there. It matches stock liner volume and feels good enough in its incorrectly-molded state, so I'll plan to run it with that liner. I don't think this boot fits as high-volume as the prime hawx but I don't completely trust my judgement on that, especially in the comfort of my home.
I wanted a boot right in between the two I have, and this backland XTD seems to nail it. Almost all of my touring is on a deathwish tour and the current backland leaves me feeling a little under-gunned in bad snow. I dislike walking in the hawx after being spoiled by the backland ROM. New boot feels significantly more substantial than the backland and carpet ROM is as advertised. I'm not calibrated to evaluate carpet flex pattern, but nothing jumps out as weird to me.
Other notes:
- gaiter design is friendlier than previous backland. It's easier to get my feet in and out, and seems like it'll play better with non-stock liners (stock backland liners had velcro or magnets to hold the gaiter). There are velcro patches on this liner to fasten the gaiter, one in front, one in back, but they seem less necessary than the old style.
- instep buckle seems like it can be cranked way down. It's in the middle of 3 possible ladder positions and I'm barely able to use the loosest rung of the ladder
- instep buckle design allows you to clip it in backwards for a looser-but-not-unbuckled mode. I'm not sure if that is intentional, but it's nice for uphill in the situation where I'm maxing out the ladder but don't want to move its position. Now that I wrote it out, that's kind of a dumb situation, but still a cool buckle!
- GW model has a velcro strap, which is weird to me. Atomic's cam straps are dialed on my other boots and velcro straps that expose the hook side when loosened are annoying.
Overall I'm stoked on this boot, it's the right class for nearly all of my touring and the fit is just what I need
Good info! Anyone with a Blister membership want to share what they had to say on their recent members on review?
https://blisterreview.com/flash-revi...xtd-carbon-120
Oh man, this makes me feel a lot better about not ordering a pair from skiwest. I definitely want the touring sole not the gripwalk sole, and returning the boots would have been a hassle for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by caulfield
At the risk of exposing what a jong I am, if I plan on using these boots exclusively in pin bindings or maybe occasionally Shifts (the horror!), what would be the disadvantage of getting the version with the gripwalk sole?
The plastic on the GripWalk sole sucks for scrambling or booting on any kind of rocks and is generally more slick than a full rubber sole. Obviously this doesn’t apply if you have crampons on. GW soles are usually also flatter (less rockered), so you lose some efficiency and natural movement when walking on hard ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by djhutch
A comment was made earlier that it would have been nice if the non-GW touring sole was a bit shorter (and exclusive for pin bindings) so the stride was more natural with the pins closer to the ball of foot. But since that’s not the case, I don’t think you’ll notice a big difference in stride efficiency between the two when skinning.
So if you just “normal” ski tour without much scrambling or walking on hard ground, I doubt you could tell a difference with the GW sole. If you hike in them with skis on back or booting with rocky sections, the full rubber is probably the way to go.
^^^^
I would agree with the above - indifferent for most touring applications, rubber sole better for walking/booting/scrambling situations
But I’d also add that I might prefer Grip-walk if I were using them in shifts a lot - I know rubber soles are fine in MNC bindings but IMHO grip-walk is a better more solid interface
Main reason for choosing grip walk would be compatibility with a whole range of other alpine bindings if you wanted to use them in that capacity.
Yep, I was assuming the “pins only” scenario. You are 100% correct that if you want to run anything but a pin binding, the GW sole makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcpnz
That said, I would definitely consider whether you want to run this light of a boot in anything but a pin binding. The Hawx XTD or any number of other boots are much better suited for that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by auvgeek
Agreed. Making a Gripwalk version of this boot is a bizarre choice to me. They would have made a lot more people happy if they made a low volume (Ultra) fit version of it than a Gripwalk version of it. Granted, I haven't seen the boot in person, but this is a touring focused boot. The people who want a Gripwalk boot are much more likely to be in the Hawx.
slight hassle yea, but skiwest made it pretty easy--they emailed me a return label and refunded me for the original shipping charge. Would buy from them againQuote:
Originally Posted by auvgeek
I currently have a pair of these at home I'm messing around with, trying to decide if I'm going to keep them to repair my 4 year old Zero Gs (a high bar). The range of motions is amazing. Forward flex is bit is a bit softer than Zero Gs in carpet testing. There seems to be a bit of a click and tiniest bit of play in the walk mode lever, something I never noticed in the Zero Gs. As expected from the listed medium volume the heel is definitely higher volume than my Zero Gs which is a bummer, but its not as bad as I feared it might be, might be do-able for me. The forefoot is actually pretty good for me (my Zero Gs had numerous punches on them). I wish the forefoot buckle was farther posterior/back, providing some heel hold. I personally don't feel much benefit from buckles over your foot (none from toe buckles on 4 buckle boots) and feel if its a two buckle boot the second buckle would be more useful to help pull your foot back into the heel pocket, like the instep strap on Maestrales (which isn't actually over your instep) or the second buckle on Kryptons. If I end up keeping them I might play around with moving that buckle or something.
What are the differences between the Backland XTD Carbon 120, and the Backland XTD 110? Seems like...
120
-- cam strap
-- carbon loaded PA
-- 3D platinum tour liner
110
-- velcro strap
-- standard PA
-- 3D gold tour liner
Anything else? What's the diff between the platinum and gold liners?
Will be very interested to see how these compare to the Transalp pro carbon. Weights are very close according to skimo.co scale in size 27.
I’ve tried both on, granted it was inside. The Transalp is probably a bitter stiffer but has a much more limited touring range of motion, especially rearward. Its rearward motion doesn’t seem any better than my Zero Gs. The Backland range of motion is impressive. Both have way too much volume for my foot and the Z closure things do nothing to hold my foot back in the ankle pocket.Quote:
Originally Posted by auvgeek
Have a pair as well. Agreed with the previous comments on ROM, its pretty amazing. The slight wobble/click in ski mode is slightly concerning. Overall definitely roomy but I have a high instep and the Z closure works for me.
3 main upgrades of the 120:Quote:
Originally Posted by rjenz
1. Stiffer flex, achieved through carbon-loaded PA.
2. Platinum liner = firmer fit, achieved through denser heat-moldable foams
3. cam strap = snugger fit at the top of the cuff
Cheers! How punchable is the carbon-loaded PA, composite materials are usually a bit trickier hey? I tried on the 120 in a shop the other day and found the 26.5 a better touring length/forefoot volume for me, but the 25.5 was a better fit everywhere else... (put me down as one of the folks that would be super keen for a Backland XTD based on an Ultra fit instead of the Prime ;))Quote:
Originally Posted by onenerdykid
I put my foot into a 27.5 Backland XTD 110 last night while my wife was getting some Backlands punched. The boot was comfortably roomy around the toes vertically and in width, the length was what I would expect compared to the Backlands that I've had previously. My normal problem spot is my navicular bone which would take the same amount of work that I would expect in other Backlands. The carpet flex felt soft to me but higher quality than Backland. I'm looking forward to getting into a pair of 120s and think they will make for a nice touring boot for longer tours where the skiing is still the objective, not the means to reach a destination. I think the Hawx XTDs will still be my boot of choice for lift access back country and normal mid-winter tours.
My feet measure out at 283r/285l and I wear Backlands in 27.5 with a lot of shell stretch from an aggressive oven session and I wear Hawx XTDs in 28.5. I'd be tempted to drop to a 27.5 in the Hawx as well but the last time I tried I couldn't actually get my foot into the 27.5 but could get into the 28.5.
Haven't had mine punched yet but shop fitters have punched a couple and they said the boot holds the punchQuote:
Originally Posted by rjenz
Curious when you would punch vs doing the memory shell fit? I finally tried mine on and wore them around a bit and I will definitely need some width in the forefoot of both boots. Do I try heating and molding the shell and liner first and then going with a punch? Liner only and save the shell? Liner mold and then punch?Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeLau
I don’t need any room in the ankle, if anything, I could stand to take up some ankle volume. What’s the order of operations here? Thanks!
I think I would punch a bit at the forefoot for toe space for touring if I use Intuition liners but I'd first try memoryfit.Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag
From what I recall Memoryfit for the Backlabd would be shell +liner so I'd do a mild cook of both and work it in slowly
Memory Fit is good for:Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag
-doing a lot of shell & cuff reshaping
-you don't have the time to go back to a boot fitter for multiple refits
-you might prioritize comfort over all-out-performance
Traditional Stretching is good for:
-you don't need a lot done to the shell or cuff, just specific zones
-and/or you are able/willing to go back to your fitter for multiple refits
-and/or you prioritize performance over comfort, or don't want to sacrifice performance for the sake of comfort
You've said you just need the forefoot adjusted and you don't want a looser ankle/heel. For me, this has the traditional approach written all over it. Expand where you need to, don't mess with the zones you don't.
Order of operations:
1. you have a supportive, aftermarket footbed that works with your foot shape.
2. boot fitter has checked to see how much space is in your shell, length & width.
3. if you already have decent space in the forefoot, then maybe you only need to heat mold the liner.
4. if you don't have decent space in the forefoot, then you should have the shell stretched where you need it.
5. the liner can then be heat molded to that new shell shape, or you can ski it as is, depending on how well it fits you as is. I generally heat mold liners, I find that things feel more uniform and ready to go.
Here's where it admittedly gets a little confusing with how we have named the procedures...Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeLau
For Backland & Backland UL, these boots use a glued-in boot board. If you were to remove the liners from the shells and heat the shells, the boot board would become unglued, and when you reinsert the liner, the boot board rolls up into the toe box. No bueno. So for these boots, we recommend leaving the liner in the shell during Memory Fit and cook both at the same time.
For Backland XTD, these boots use a traditional, drop-in boot board, just like Hawx & Hawx XTD. With any boot that has such a boot board, you take the liner out of the shell and only heat the shells. Then you add the liner once they come out of the oven. These boots are also just as tall as Hawx Prime XTD and you most likely won't be able to fit a complete boot into the oven anyway. Liner needs to come out for these models.
This is great info, thank you so much!Quote:
Originally Posted by onenerdykid
I have now put 6 days on these boots and will try and write a little review.
My goal was to get a touring specific boot that skied well, I tried on so many boots in the 1300-1500g class and ended with this one. I have a high arch, a somewhat wide foot, and skinny ankles. Everything else I tried on just didn't fit and this was "closest" so off we went. After 6 days I have had them punched a few times to go wider in the fore foot, there is a pressure point on my arch which I can feel, but isn't an issue, the open top design seems to accommodate the high arch well enough. I did flip flop the straps to try and move the point the boot closes higher up my foot, and I'm not sure how well that worked. I have some movement in the ankle, and I will probably have to get new liners sooner than later to try and take up that volume.
Overall though, I think it was the best boot I tried on, and I am not unhappy. After 6 days I am getting them broken in, and my feet are warm, and probably one punch away from being comfortable.
Skiing: They ski excellent. Nothing like a resort boot, but I like them better than my XT3 Tours, and my Lupos. The adjustable forward lean is great. The flex isn't as smooth as a resort boot, and I wish I had experience in more touring boots to compare them to, but once you start skiing this is less noticeable. I do find myself pulling up on the tongues to try and get them in the right spot. May try a booster strap to smooth out that harsh feeling initial flex, or a new liner with a slightly thicker tongue would help this.
Touring: What I really came for. The ROM is incredible, the pivot point feels spot on, and they transition efficiently. Effortless strides, and no fussing about, I have a long stride and usually use risers on not that steep of stuff. The ROM on these has made it so I haven't used a riser yet this year. I haven't done any boot packing in them yet, I am curious to see if it keeps your foot secure enough to stay comfy.
Other thoughts: The gaiter is somewhat annoying if you take your liners out, the front and back have a really nice pull loop, but the sides can bunch up a little. Not a deal breaker.
The power strap has little ridges on it that you can feel while tightening, this is kind of neat and you can feel it ratchet down. Has helped me keep from over tightening.
I usually have cold feet, and my feet have been warm in these.
So for those who've adopted the Backland XTD 120, has this replaced your Tecnica zero Gs or Hawx Ultra XTDs? Currently, I'm looking for a beefier touring boot to drive my wider ski and days when I feel like charging. The Salomon MTN Summit Boot is great for long days, but loses precision on a bigger ski. I currently have the Fischer Transalp Pro but I decided that it doesn't fit my heel very well. I'm deciding between these and the Tecnica Zero G Tour Pros.
I think it really depends on how long you want to tour with your "beefy" touring boot. To me, the Backland XTD as a beefy touring boot only really makes sense if your light touring boot is under 1kg.Quote:
Originally Posted by abcdethan
The Backland XTD 120 is ~200g more than your Mtn Summit, which isn't all that much. And the emphasis of the Backland XTD is how well it walks for a 1400g boot, not how well it skis for a 1400g boot. I would personally want a substantial improvement in skiing to differentiate between the two boots.
If you want to replace your mtn summit with a boot that skis a bit better but tours about as well, then I'd think the Backland XTD would be on the shortlist. Otherwise, I'd pick a 1500g boot that skis substantially better than your Mtn Summit. Just my $0.02.
Replaced the ZGTP. And fwiw I agree with that auvgeek saidQuote:
Originally Posted by abcdethan
Hey @Yukonrider, I see you enjoyed skiing these more than your Lupos. Can ya elaborate on that at all? Or even better, how you'd compare the fit between the two? I'm currently on some heavily modded Lupos but not super stoked on them, aside from the massive ROM with the tongue out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukonrider
When you say flip flop the straps to get them to hold higher up your foot what did you do?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukonrider
How does the ZGTP walk compared to the Atomic Hawx XTD in terms of range and friction? I had the 2020 Hawx previously to compare.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeLau
Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
I think the shells have very similar walking abilities. Apart from the first year or two of production the Hawx was specced with much beefier liners than the ZGTP so its tough to compare unless you are using identical liners.Quote:
Originally Posted by abcdethan
Very similar. I went from an old hawx xtd to a new zeroG. Both have a ROM that is limited by the cuff rubbing against the top-front over lap of the lower shell on a long stride.Quote:
Originally Posted by abcdethan
i tried Back XTD 120s back to back with my stock ZGPTs in a shop, and the former both felt more supportive and their ROM was vastly better. The reason for the former was mostly that the boot just fit my foot better, causing less shell deformation when flexing into the boot. The outcome surprised me - I did not expect the BXTDs to be that supportive.
I have not tried thhe ZGPTs with Intuition liners yet - that migh even out the flex characteristics a bit - if not the ROM.
I can't afford to get the B XTDs at this point in time - perhaps later this winter.
Intuition liners will likely walk noticeably worse than ZGTP stock liners, but they will ski better. The B XTD liner is a work of art, combining support and ROM better than any touring liner probably ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by kid-kapow
The ZGTP walks better (comparing 2018 boots) both with Intuition ProTour liners. The difference isn't huge but more apparent on flat approaches. The upside of the ZGTP for me and my fitment is that I barely had to do anything with buckles to get full tour range other than to undo the 3rd buckle fully and flip open the other buckles. For HAWX XTD to get full tour range I had to undo all buckles and power strap to get full range. For both I also had to go into walk mode obviouslyQuote:
Originally Posted by abcdethan
Of course the tourability of the Backland XTD is far better than both ZGTP and Hawx XTD and all I do there is flip open the middle buckle and go into walk mode.
Trying the ProTour and Luxury liner I haven't noticed a difference fwiw. Having said that the stock Backland XTD has been fine. That's been a nice and welcome surpriseQuote:
Originally Posted by Benneke10
Edit. Haven't had them out in very cold temps yet to assess differences
How big of skis are people pushing with these? I'm 175, 5'10. Debating whether they can push a Meridian Tour in 181cm. Skis are 1750g and 107 underfoot
I’m 5’11 and 170 and plan on using them with my v-werks Katana’s. I’ll update after I try them. Hopefully soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by akgnar
Skied 184 Billygoats. No problemQuote:
Originally Posted by akgnar