Antiwork

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

tone deaf bosses

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You got this part right.

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Originally Posted by Falcon3

Access to education
Access to healthcare
Explicit/implicit biases of people who hired you/taught you
Race


Fuck even just using the zip code people grew up in you can pretty accurately tell what their economic outcome will be.

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AKA baseline socioeconomic status.

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Originally Posted by neufox47

Companies are trying to pump their “we are a great place to work” reputation so hard right now, without having any actual substance behind it. My company has hired so many Talent Acquisition and Hr people to “tell our story”, yet we suspended the 401k match for almost a year during Covid, then reinstated it 30% lower than pre-pandemic and had no raises in 2021 then 3% in early 2022.

I’m pretty sure that is going to speak much louder than any other “Story” the marketing folks put together.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

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"We've experienced supply chain challenges. But join our family team and leverage your vastly inferior bargaining power to live for us first while adding structure to your life."

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Originally Posted by Falcon3

Congrats! You got out. I’m sure it’s 1000% because of your intrinsic awesomeness and had nothing to do with:

Access to education
Access to healthcare
Explicit/implicit biases of people who hired you/taught you
Race


Fuck even just using the zip code people grew up in you can pretty accurately tell what their economic outcome will be. I’m sure that’s because those people in those zip codes are just way better at bootstrapping and the other zip codes are just lazy right?!?

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No denying i had intrinsic advantages doled out by the universe through no fault of my own. All 4 of the ones you listed. 100%.

Where we may disagree is the level to which my apparent "success" has been due to natural talent + work ethic vs due to being a white middle class male in america, and then why that matters in what should be a competitive meritocratic environment like the workforce? But, we are getting off topic.

The biggest thing that bothers me about the "antiwork" movement is the passive aggressive approach to dealing with the problem, and the sense of being entitled to a middle class living (instead of working your ass off to earn it).

During the pandemic, I heard a Kroger exec say in an interview about raising employee pay "What the public doesn't understand is that while Kroger Co. is doing very well, profitability at the store level is not where we'd like it to be."

He said
Attachment 420272

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Originally Posted by dunfree

Anti-antiwork is hilarious

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I believe it's called bootlicking.

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Originally Posted by ::: :::

respect because it's physical? what makes that more deserving of respect?
completely arbitrary, imo

people deserve respect because they are people & for how they treat other people, not the role they may play

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Its totally arbitrary, and personal. I respect the work of someone when i can understand how hard it is, or how much talent it took. Im guessing that you hold more respect for work of someone who does the hardest job you ever did, than the work of someone who does the work of the easiest job you ever did, right? That's all i was saying.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

The biggest thing that bothers me about the "antiwork" movement is the passive aggressive approach to dealing with the problem, and the sense of being entitled to a middle class living (instead of working your ass off to earn it).

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Would you respect the movement more if it focused on direct action?

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

The biggest thing that bothers me about the "antiwork" movement is the passive aggressive approach to dealing with the problem, and the sense of being entitled to a middle class living (instead of working your ass off to earn it).

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I appreciate your honesty and ability to reflect on your situation. It’s not common.

I’d push back on this idea you should be willing to work your ass off to earn a basic middle class life.

It wasn’t that long ago (1990s?) when anybody that even tried a little could live a decent life. From the 1940s to 80s-90s anybody could go get a factory job stamping widgets and it came with pension, enough earnings to support you and maybe even your family, and have a decent vacation once a year. That possibility has been stolen from most of us.

The basic social contract has been broken by the ruling class of politicians and businesspeople. That hard work is commensurate with outcomes. Well it’s not anymore. Sure there are people that do well but for your average American, the benefits of the grind don’t match up with what it costs.

People in the younger generations can no longer look forward to the basic dignities of a developed society. They can’t afford a home. Shit they can’t afford an apartment without roommates. They can’t afford to have kids. They can’t afford medical care. Even the people that do work their ass of aren’t that much further ahead. And the society that took that away from them now spits at them for being lazy and entitled.

It’s about time someone stood up and tried to change things. I’m nearing 40 and have a comfortable government job with pension and good benefits but I’m with them 100%.

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Originally Posted by abraham

Would you respect the movement more if it focused on direct action?

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Im solution oriented to a fault. And yes, direct action would take work to carry out... so that would be antithetical to them.

Ditch digger, you say?

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

Its totally arbitrary, and personal. I respect the work of someone when i can understand how hard it is, or how much talent it took. Im guessing that you hold more respect for work of someone who does the hardest job you ever did, than the work of someone who does the work of the easiest job you ever did, right? That's all i was saying.

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gotcha

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Originally Posted by Falcon3

And the society that took that away from them now spits at them for being lazy and entitled.

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I disagree. hard work is still commensurate with outcomes (obviously certain factors blunt/increase the effect and is something to rectify). The problem, IMO and generally, is that peoples standards are unrealistically high IMO. People spending habits and what they consider "necessities" in this society are appalling. You talk about a middle class family going on that 1 good vacation per year... yeah that was if Dad's bonus came through, and if you saved all year to save up for it. Now, people waste money on the daily in all sorts of immediately gratifying ways at the expense of longer term financial goals. I get tired of all the outwardly looking reasons for financial issues, when there are so very many things that should and could be fixed if they looked inward.

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Originally Posted by Supermoon

The thing is, there are no bootstraps anymore. Boomers took every advantage and program they could get (given to them by their parents), raped the planet, slashed their own taxes, and threw all the boots away. Then complain that other generations are entitled. Fuck them all.

My wife and I both work full time, have no kids, have made not perfect, but good financial decisions, we’re lucky enough to have few student loans, but we are still worse off than either of our families growing up where we all survived on one income. The problems aren’t individual, they are endemic to the system.

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This is damn close to my situation. My wife did not have the advantage of support through college so there are some student loans, but otherwise we've done OK. I hold a similar gig (seniority and in govt) as my father did at his age. My wife makes significantly more. We are worse off than my parents were despite all that.

We need to stop calling Boomers Boomers. We need to revert to their generation's original and accurate name -- the "Me" generation.


And yeah -- I realize intergenerational conflicts are just a distraction for the real conflicts classes. But the Me generation have given political power for the last 40 years to the fucks responsible for this.

7am to midnight grind

https://twitter.com/coldhealing/stat...1uCF3Ot7eeqH7Q

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

Im solution oriented to a fault. And yes, direct action would take work to carry out... so that would be antithetical to them.

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This is just a straw man argument. You're setting up Antiwork in a reductionist manner ("they don't do work") that isn't at all representative of them.

If you looked or interacted with the communities of "Antiwork" (sorry..that does mean you have to participate in SM and not just listen to interpretations of it) you'd quickly realize there are large amounts of direct action happening. People resign shit jobs. People calling out shit bosses and shit organizations. People organizing labor unions at Starbucks and Amazon despite tons of pressure to stop them. People assisting others in dealing with unfair labor practices, with finding a way to live in the world that makes them more fulfilled.

But then, understanding the community you want to lambast is itself work.

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Originally Posted by klauss

7am to midnight grind

https://twitter.com/coldhealing/stat...1uCF3Ot7eeqH7Q

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Making $24/hr in Chicago for an 8-hour day with spending habits like that... ouch. there must be some external financial support there, right?

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

But then, understanding the community you want to lambast is itself work.

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Yep. Speaking of which....

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

Making $24/hr in Chicago for an 8-hour day with spending habits like that... ouch. there must be some external financial support there, right?

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I mean, the only thing she specifically bought in that was two drinks. All the workday food was provided by her job it looks like.

Also why should a person working full time for a huge tech company not be able to live a fun 20-something life? Oh sorry. Can’t go out. Have to put the money in my 401k just in case we haven’t collapsed the country, burned the planet up, or turned into batteries for a sentient AI in 50 years.

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

This is damn close to my situation. My wife did not have the advantage of support through college so there are some student loans, but otherwise we've done OK. I hold a similar gig (seniority and in govt) as my father did at his age. My wife makes significantly more. We are worse off than my parents were despite all that.

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Curious how you and Supermoon are worse off than your parents, I'm not being snarky, but from posts on here you both seem to be living pretty well. Is it mostly housing costs?

When the rich get richer while the poor get poorer, I don’t see how you can argue that something isn’t broken. It isn’t like there isn’t enough money in the system, there’s just an unyielding but clever boot on the neck of the middle class. Something will give. It’d be nice if that something wasn’t catastrophic.

Also, re bootstraps and hard work: Being able to grind is a gift just like intelligence or being born into money. Not everybody has that. You can call it lazy if you want.

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

When the rich get richer while the poor get poorer, I don’t see how you can argue that something isn’t broken. It isn’t like there isn’t enough money in the system, there’s just an unyielding but clever boot on the neck of the middle class. Something will give. It’d be nice if that something wasn’t catastrophic.

Also, re bootstraps and hard work: Being able to grind is a gift just like intelligence or being born into money. Not everybody has that. You can call it lazy if you want.

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Agreed to both statements.

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Originally Posted by zion zig zag

Curious how you and Supermoon are worse off than your parents, I'm not being snarky, but from posts on here you both seem to be living pretty well. Is it mostly housing costs?

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Posts here are hardly representative of life. I post stoke here. Not financial woes or personal struggles.

I was lucky to grow up in a very transparent household. We had family budget nights monthly where we looked at income, bank statements, spending, savings, etc from the time I was 8 til I left at 18. Unlike most at the elite college I went to -- I knew what my parents made, what their mortgage costs, and how their retirement savings looked.

My wife and I do the same thing the first Tuesday of every month: budget and takeout night. (Big spenders I know...we get takeout on average 3x a month).

As a portion of our income, we spend significantly more on housing for less house. We spend significantly more on healthcare. We have a significantly less (inflation-adjusted) net worth at same age. My father's State gov't pension plan paid a higher % for less years of services to what I am now offered in State gov't. Childcare which we are hoping to need in the next year or two will run approx. 3x what it costs my parents (thats a number I know isn't just our issue because I ran the analytic team for State govt child care office.) We have ~80k in student debt to my parents 0 (when both of us worked 20hrs a week in college and my parents didn't.)

Sure -- I drink better beer. I have a bigger TV. Ours cars are nicer because a Toyota from 2013 is nicer than a Toyota from 1990. My skis are better but the lift lines suck. Are there some elements of my life that are superior to my parents? Sure. Are their some of theirs that were superior to mine? You bet.

And we're the fucking lucky ones. This isn't supposed to be some sob story for Supermoon and I. It's a recognition that there a systemic breakdowns happening that bootstraps aren't the answer to.

And it's not just antiworkers that see this -- it's Bloomberg: https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2...student%20debt.

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

Posts here are hardly representative of life. I post stoke here. Not financial woes or personal struggles.

I was lucky to grow up in a very transparent household. We had family budget nights monthly where we looked at income, bank statements, spending, savings, etc from the time I was 8 til I left at 18. Unlike most at the elite college I went to -- I knew what my parents made, what their mortgage costs, and how their retirement savings looked.

My wife and I do the same thing the first Tuesday of every month: budget and takeout night. (Big spenders I know...we get takeout on average 3x a month).

As a portion of our income, we spend significantly more on housing for less house. We spend significantly more on healthcare. We have a significantly less (inflation-adjusted) net worth at same age. My father's State gov't pension plan paid a higher % for less years of services to what I am now offered in State gov't. Childcare which we are hoping to need in the next year or two will run approx. 3x what it costs my parents (thats a number I know isn't just our issue because I ran the analytic team for State govt child care office.) We have ~80k in student debt to my parents 0 (when both of us worked 20hrs a week in college and my parents didn't.)

Sure -- I drink better beer. I have a bigger TV. Ours cars are nicer because a Toyota from 2013 is nicer than a Toyota from 1990. My skis are better but the lift lines suck.

And we're the fucking lucky ones. This isn't supposed to be some sob story for Supermoon and I. It's a recognition that there a systemic breakdowns happening that bootstraps aren't the answer to.

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Thanks for the detailed response, I am genuinely curious. As a Gen X'er I mostly get left out of the generation wars, so it's good to hear perspectives.

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Originally Posted by zion zig zag

Thanks for the detailed response, I am genuinely curious. As a Gen X'er I mostly get left out of the generation wars, so it's good to hear perspectives.

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And to be entirely fair that's just my story -- there are plenty of Millenials that have done well too. Graduating college in 2008 sucked a bunch of balls.

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Originally Posted by highangle

Ditches get dug with diesel fuel these days...most times it's diesel + compression, like a trackhoe engine, but sometimes it's diesel + ammonium nitrate...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZc2gAMxFzg

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See a lot of those in Central Oregon blasting lava rock. Then they grind it up and repurpose it for fill. They blew some lava rock last week and it shook the office building something fierce.

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

Posts here are hardly representative of life. I post stoke here. Not financial woes or personal struggles.

I was lucky to grow up in a very transparent household. We had family budget nights monthly where we looked at income, bank statements, spending, savings, etc from the time I was 8 til I left at 18. Unlike most at the elite college I went to -- I knew what my parents made, what their mortgage costs, and how their retirement savings looked.

My wife and I do the same thing the first Tuesday of every month: budget and takeout night. (Big spenders I know...we get takeout on average 3x a month).

As a portion of our income, we spend significantly more on housing for less house. We spend significantly more on healthcare. We have a significantly less (inflation-adjusted) net worth at same age. My father's State gov't pension plan paid a higher % for less years of services to what I am now offered in State gov't. Childcare which we are hoping to need in the next year or two will run approx. 3x what it costs my parents (thats a number I know isn't just our issue because I ran the analytic team for State govt child care office.) We have ~80k in student debt to my parents 0 (when both of us worked 20hrs a week in college and my parents didn't.)

Sure -- I drink better beer. I have a bigger TV. Ours cars are nicer because a Toyota from 2013 is nicer than a Toyota from 1990. My skis are better but the lift lines suck. Are there some elements of my life that are superior to my parents? Sure. Are their some of theirs that were superior to mine? You bet.

And we're the fucking lucky ones. This isn't supposed to be some sob story for Supermoon and I. It's a recognition that there a systemic breakdowns happening that bootstraps aren't the answer to.

And it's not just antiworkers that see this -- it's Bloomberg: https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2...student%20debt.

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Yeah, this is pretty much it. I’ve been in the workforce uninterrupted for 23 years (since junior year of high school), same for my wife, and we are just starting to feel comfortable with our situation.

But everyone is just one bad hospital trip away from losing it all.

There are so many things working against the average American- student loans, medical debt, consumer debt, healthcare tied to employment, inflation, forced arbitration, low wages, institutional investors buying single family homes, etc.

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

Posts here are hardly representative of life. I post stoke here. Not financial woes or personal struggles.

And we're the fucking lucky ones. This isn't supposed to be some sob story for Supermoon and I. It's a recognition that there a systemic breakdowns happening that bootstraps aren't the answer to.

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I had a long post of my own written up but you said it well. My situation is nearly the same. Parents (no college) had a very comfortable life making under $100k (adjusted) between the two of them plus supporting a family. They retired early and fully own a retirement house in a resort town plus a second vacation property.

I’m finally nearing $100k after busting my ass for 15 years doing a lot of jobs that weren’t waiting tables or McDonalds (like us “bootstrappers” are supposed to right?) and it’s already looking too late to ever have a comfortable retirement.

I never eat out and my MTB/ski habits cost less than $1500/year (small cost for a little bit of happiness?). My phones cost less than $400 and I keep them 3-4 years until they die. My only car is from 2013 and certainly isn’t luxury. I’ve done everything society tells you to do to get ahead and still I feel like I’m barely treading water against the rising cost of everything, not to mention the uncertainty about what horrors our ecological and political futures may hold. Most of my friends I went to college with are in the same or even worse boat, and these are smart driven people

But this isn’t a sob story, I’m ok with my lot and I’m doing a hell of a lot better than a lot of folks, I’ll appreciate that. But it’s no wonder so many people are saying “fuck it” because the system is rigged and unfair and are living life for now, because by the time they get old who knows what kind of shit world will be waiting for them.

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

And to be entirely fair that's just my story -- there are plenty of Millenials that have done well too. Graduating college in 2008 sucked a bunch of balls.

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I graduated in 2008 to begin a career in financial services, of all industries. I’ve been extraordinarily lucky to get to a spot where I’m fairly comfortable with excellent prospects. To be sure, I worked my ass off and tightened my belt for a lot of years, too. I see and know and work with plenty of people who have not been as lucky or have had my gifts.

I’m proud of what I’ve accomplished, but I try to maintain perspective. A big part of that perspective is knowing where others have ended up, so I’m always keen to hear real-life experiences from those who share similar values and interests. It’s not too enlightening to know the experiences of a 24 yo tech worker in New York City or a 60 year old janitor in Dubuque, so thanks for sharing.

Anyways, your experience of transparency in your household is interesting. I’m not transparent with my kids, because I grew up in a less than transparent household. It’s like a reflex. I’ll reconsider that, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Kevo

...institutional investors buying single family homes, etc.

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And then seeing said institutional investors deemed "too big to fail."
See: Elizabeth Warren & Blackrock.

But people like her are REALLY for the little guys, huh?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using TGR Forums mobile app

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Originally Posted by Falcon3

...Most of my friends I went to college with are in the same or even worse boat, and these are smart driven people

But this isn’t a sob story, I’m ok with my lot and I’m doing a hell of a lot better than a lot of folks, I’ll appreciate that. But it’s no wonder so many people are saying “fuck it” because the system is rigged and unfair and are living life for now, because by the time they get old who knows what kind of shit world will be waiting for them.

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"Smart driven people" I think is what makes the whole "anitwork" thing interesting to me.

I've had positive references to/discussions about "antiwork" come from places I didn't expect it in the last couple years....from a friend of mine with an MBA from Booth with a dozen+ years in M&A, from a colleague with a ph.d. in sociology who worked 15+ years as an electrician before that, from ski patrollers with 10+ years on the hill, from a close friend who just made partner at a law firm. It being lazy entitled folks just ain't my experience.

I think a lot of that is because people do what they “should” do and it’s still not enough to feel secure, or start a family, and the always on work culture is so soul sucking.

My buddy was an Ivy league educated contracts lawyer and they offered him partner at his firm and he just quit instead.

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

Being able to grind is a gift Not everybody has that.

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So should those people who "cant" work hard be as successful as someone with that gift of working hard? Should the dumb be as successful as the smart? The talentless as successful as the talented? I dont think our society should be a winner take all culture (and maybe we have trended too far this direction), but i also really dont like the everybody gets a trophy trope.

Maybe I'm missing the point the of the "Antiwork" movement. What is the mission statement of the movement, and why did they choose "antiwork" as their tagline?

antiwork?
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ceo-6...132634102.html

One wonders how he'll survive

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

So should those people who "cant" work hard be as successful as someone with that gift of working hard? Should the dumb be as successful as the smart? The talentless as successful as the talented? I dont think our society should be a winner take all culture (and maybe we have trended too far this direction), but i also really dont like the everybody gets a trophy trope.

Maybe I'm missing the point the of the "Antiwork" movement. What is the mission statement of the movement, and why did they choose "antiwork" as their tagline?

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We’ve argued about this before.

I think there are winners and losers, for sure. The market has decided that some attributes are more rare and harder to replace, and compensation flows accordingly, but I think we grossly undervalue other skills and abilities and somebody who can show up and put up with your shit and sling you pizzas for 40 hours a week deserves a roof over their head and a car that isn’t on the verge of breaking down and food in their bellies and a little bit of savings.

And the guy who boasts about busting their ass might as well be boasting about being in Mensa or being born into money. All are gifts. Being a dick about any of them is just being a dick.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

So should those people who "cant" work hard be as successful as someone with that gift of working hard? Should the dumb be as successful as the smart? The talentless as successful as the talented? I dont think our society should be a winner take all culture (and maybe we have trended too far this direction), but i also really dont like the everybody gets a trophy trope.

Maybe I'm missing the point the of the "Antiwork" movement. What is the mission statement of the movement, and why did they choose "antiwork" as their tagline?

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Have you spent any time on the Antiwork subReddit? 90% of the stories on there are about companies acting illegally or at the very least unethically towards their employees.

Not paying what they offered.

Not following employment contracts.

Illegally not paying for hours worked.

Laying off employees and then promising the rest who pick up the slack raises and promotions that never come.

Workers that get told they have to take pay cuts while profits and corporate bonuses are at all time highs.

Not treating employees like humans that need work breaks, have sick kids to take care of, have lives outside the job.


A very small portion of those posts fall into the “whiny entitled” box. I’ve never seen people asking to be paid $80k for delivering pizzas. But If we agree that sticking groceries, making pizzas, waiting tables, and serving McDonalds are things we want in this society, why shouldn’t we consider it fair to pay these people at least what it takes to scrape by? And treat them like humans, in what is the biggest economy every created, in what’s purportedly the “greatest country” on Earth?

It’s about standing up for themselves and trying to fight back against corporate culture that tries to turn everyone into bootlicking slaves. Fighting Bill Lumberg bosses who demean employees to feel better about their own terrible lives. Supporting the working class to fight for reasonable working conditions. If you’re not for these things, do you root for the Empire in Star Wars or what?

And to add to Falcon:

It's not a specific movement with a mission statement, defined goals, and processes. Social movements take years and years to develop into such things.

It's a fucking subreddit that blew up because it resonated with huge numbers of people. Now folks want to evaluate it based on whether it has leaders, written policy briefs and KPIs. I

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

So should those people who "cant" work hard be as successful as someone with that gift of working hard? Should the dumb be as successful as the smart? The talentless as successful as the talented? I dont think our society should be a winner take all culture (and maybe we have trended too far this direction), but i also really dont like the everybody gets a trophy trope.

Maybe I'm missing the point the of the "Antiwork" movement. What is the mission statement of the movement, and why did they choose "antiwork" as their tagline?

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This isn’t about everyone being equally successful. It’s about an entire segment of our society being exploited.

I presume that all human traits (intelligence, luck, physical ability, etc) exist on some sort of normal distribution. Therefore there are millions of people who just need help to survive and live something resembling a decent life.

I swear, almost every problem in our country can be traced back to income inequality and people still almost refuse to acknowledge that it exists.

No problem rewarding the hard workers here, but how many lifetimes of wealth do they need before we say enough is enough?


(and the we can get into extrapolating this to the rest of the planet.) for

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Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

And then seeing said institutional investors deemed "too big to fail."
See: Elizabeth Warren & Blackrock.

But people like her are REALLY for the little guys, huh?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using TGR Forums mobile app

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Warren is a million times better for the little guy than any Republican politician in the USA.. But admittedly that is a very low bar.

What’s weird is IRL no one can physically pull themselves up by their little bootstraps and the expression was meant to be taken as sarcasm and doing something impossible