What would be some of the beer league/cheater skis? If 170-173cm GS skis are U14er's would this be a good option for a GS ski that would be more manageable? 155 or 165 for an SL ski?
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What would be some of the beer league/cheater skis? If 170-173cm GS skis are U14er's would this be a good option for a GS ski that would be more manageable? 155 or 165 for an SL ski?
SL ski length will depend on how tall you are. If you are under 5’8” you will be fine on a 155. Over that height you may find yourself looking for more tail when you get jacked up, which will happen. 165s are a blast if you want to turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by MCskid
blizzard firebirds WRC and HRC, look on the site, they come with a xcell 14 or flat with a race plate
nordica spitfire line
Stockli has the ones said a few posts back
Volkl has a racetiger cheater
Those are the ones worth taking a look at. And you can find some good deals on them. In fact I think Corbett’s has blizzards right now for a decent price with clamps.
155 +/- is Women's SL, 165 is Mens SL. There is nothing else. I'd go 165cm unless you are really tiny <140lbs and also think you'll actually run a SL course. Both have similar ~12M radius.Quote:
Originally Posted by MCskid
There are FIS norms for M, W, and Jr.'s. A U16 (for 14-15 yro's) FIS norm will be ~23M and run 180+, but much below that (17Xcm, <20M) the Jr skis also are softer and lighter so usually not a good choice for adults.
A "cheater race ski" is any non-FIS ski marketed to the masses, "cheater" because one can get an 18M radius ski to make a 27M+ turn, but getting a 27M+ ski to carve a 18M requires both technique and brute strength and is very tiring*. All the big brands- atomic redster G9, Volkl racetiger rmotion, Rossi, Fischer, Nordica, etc make a non-fis ski that fits this mold (~18M+/- and 175-185cm sizes).
And yeah, sharpen the edges 2*/1* or maybe run 3*side/1*base on any rec ski and that should greatly improve hard snow performance.
(*4 prs of M's and W's FIS 188+ 30M & 35M GS skis collecting dust in the ski room, while the 23M ones still get used).
The edge grip and quickness of a true race ski is exhilarating and substantially different than even the best front side carvers.
But there is no way very many, if any, folks should be on a current FIS GS ski (193/30m or even the women’s 188/30m) on an open resort run.
I’ve skied on my kids race skis often enough to know that junior skis are not designed for fat fucks like me (actually I’m not even particularly fat, or heavy or skilled in the dark arts of racing).
If I get on something in the 175cm/23m range, which has been pointed out is a u14/small u16 ski and is designed and flexed as such for a ~110lb person, I can have decent fun just cruising. But then you get overconfident and decide to get after it a little and just when you start going quick and get on the front of the boot and the ski they fold and hook, unpredictably and dangerously so.
I can actually get by fairly well on a 182/25m radius which is generally a u16 ski and although I haven’t been on them yet I suspect the 185 would be even better, but by then we’re at ~27m radius which requires way more room to run and require speed and good technique all the time.
Thats where the cheater or master skis come in - they’re flexed for adults but feature the length and radius of the junior skis while still offering higher performance than the frontside carver.
If you’re just looking to have some fun on groomers through a dry spell and not actually running gates regularly I reckon the all mountain frontside carving ski is the way to go - much more versatile than even a master race ski and good enough to run a nastar every now and then. If you’re actually going to run gates often then go with a masters/cheater race ski.
Edit: yeah get your mx83s tuned properly, take care of them, have fun and don’t bother looking for anything else.
I have a pair of older Dynastar SLs in a 165 that can be a lot of fun. I'm 230, raced when I was younger and have strong carving technique. They are a lot of fun, but are a lot of work and you really need your be on your game.
I also have a pair of the Course Ti's (same era as the slalom skis) in a 177 with a 16 m radius. I love these skis. If you drive them hard they can do shorter turns and will rail medium-long turns all day long. You still need to be on your game but they are a lot more forgiving than the SL's.
Both skis have their plusses but I mostly ski the Course Ti's because of the versatility.
Both skis have the race plate.
I could live without my gs skis but not my SLs. Even though they can be as demanding as a readhead girlfriend sometimes.
'Tis true. SLs=Gingers!Quote:
Originally Posted by utagonian
Don't overlook the Masters options either; picked up a pair of Masters GS skis (174 cm, R 21; definitely not FIS). Very nice.
Especially for a beat up, old free-heeler.
GS skis on an open empty slope are so much gid damn fun! This thread has me jonesing!
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Attachment 414610Quote:
Originally Posted by PB
:FIREdevil
I bought some Stockli Laser GS this past winter for more or less the same purpose and they're pretty awesome. I'll echo that you don't want a FIS ski - doubt you'll approach the limits of something like a Laser GS or some of the other skis in its class.
I am a former racer.
You need to be very focused all the time with these types of skis. There is no relax. Super one dimensional but amazing when you want to carve like a champ at mach 1
Fast as hell and carve through pure ice down the boilerplate.
Plan on using them in beer league racing as well.
There is more than 1 company that have Slalom skis in 155 cm (Women's) then they have 160 cm and finally 165 cm as stated for men's FIS specification. Fischer for a while had a 166 cm slalom ski also (obviously for beer league or just for fun as not legal for FIS or racing that followed FIS rules...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mofro261
Anyone want to browse that is following this thread, here are some "race" ski demo's that you could check out. Many cheater GS skis and all levels of length and turning radius for comparison.
https://www.powder7.com/all-race-skis
I think the logical progression for OP is to pick up a couple year old FIS SL (165) on the cheap and go ski it. How you mesh with that ski will tell you everything you need to know on where to go from there (IE to full GS or beer league cheater or neither).
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That^^ and keep a fresh tune on the kastles. Get the existing skis baselined with stone grind to flat base and edge bevels reset, then frequent edge polishing and touching up the bases. Do the same with the race skis.
Others have said, ski swaps. There are also probably a couple of shops in town that have mounted race skis being sold cheap on consignment throughout the season.
This is probably the best advice from your description. You should be able to round up some used cheater race skis for cheap and if it doesn't suit your needs you'll only be out a few hundred bucks at most. If you really want a sports car and have some decent carving skills with fore/aft touch get some old school 23 m GS skis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mofro261
I have a beater pair of FIS Sl (Atomic Redster Marcel Hirscher SL's with the moto bases for the win) that I use mostly for coaching the little ones.
Awesome fun ski that just rip on the hard pack. They are also easy to turn on the Monkey Trail (gully jump run favoured by the u6 to u10 crowd). The kids are constantly skiing over them, the short length makes it easier to pick up the carnage, and they make me look good demonstrating the drills. No one wants to see me try and do spiess drills on gs skis!
But mainly they are really, really fun.
I highly recommend.
I also have a pair of rossi fis gs skis and a pair of the stockli laser gs skis. Between the two, for my fat middle aged ass the Stockli is the funner ski by far. Both need attention and aggressiveness, but the fis skis need so much more and are only really fun at ludicrous speed. I got them when we had a ski cross track (and a nephew changed sponsors so they were close to free) and they were perfect for that. Now that we don't I haven't touched them.
If you want the rossi's - for shipping and beer I could try and track them down (dig them out of the pile). But you can probably find a pair near you for less than the shipping.
The skis I mentioned before were probably U18 or U16. They held an edge beautifully on the firm but were soft enough to ski at moderate speed when things got crowded and to pivot when things got steep. I bought them for the edge hold, not to go fast.
Bump. I know next to nothing about race skis. I already ski really fast and do it on skis that aren't really meant for ripping fast on groomers. It's never gonna snow again. I'm 170ish pounds and the shortest skis I own are 183 Katanas. My favorite skis are 187 HL FL113. Pretty stiff, directional, meant for sending......but huge for ripping groomers.
So many "race skis" for sale for cheap on CL/Facebook but I have no idea what to buy.
IMO, a Master's GS in a 180 is gonna be a lot more fun than a full on GS ski.
But if you do go for a race ski, something in a 185 with a 24m radius is what you want. They are a U16 ski but should be stiff enough to really push. The 30m FIS skis will be a lot of work.
You want a racy “groomer” ski not a race ski. Race skis are a chore to ski anywhere but on packed snow with few people around.
I’d look at stuff like the Speedzone series from Dynastar, Blizzard Thunderbird/Firebird, Head Super Shape, etc. I like ~80mm underfoot skis for this purpose as you still have bite but less likely to boot out and a little more forgiving if the snow conditions change.
Or maybe Marshall has some r87 comps hidden away he’ll sell.
The above skis are going to provide a tighter sidecut and more balanced flex that will make them fun in a lot of different turn shapes and snow conditions. I actually like skiing skis like this time to time off-piste as well… helps you learn to use your ski more effectively and not just use the crutch of width and rocker. Gotta actually make the turns.
I took my 188/30 FIS GS and 180/18 Head e.speed Pro (cheater/rec carver/racy groomer) out on last week.
As you would imagine. The real race skis had higher minimum speed to work but were very confidence inspiring. No matter how fast you ski or hard you push they had more. They require you to be fully in the moment and on your game though. If you tend to lean in or run flat inside ski etc, they are FAFO skis.
The heads also can haul ass but, as you’d imagine, are more turny and lack that next gear that requires you look farther ahead and have some space.
At the end of the day when the groomers got beat up, I switched to 183/20.5 MX83s. They were fully capable of making nice round gs turns at speed with just a bit more of a laid back attitude. They made the soft edges and piles more fun too.
That makes sense. When the snow is like this I want to get a lot of edge hold and be able to really lay over the hips and make real turns. Super fast isn't the only goal and can only really let em go when you are on an empty trail early morning mid-week or late afternoon when everyone is at the bar already.
Rossi GS World Cup 182?
Attachment 479798
Naw man. Get real groomer skis.
Those rossis will be a ton of fun for straight up groomer zoomers. Esp for those that enjoy life above 30 mph.
Agree with TAFKALVS. I had some Rossi World Cup GS skis with the FIS limit sidecut radius. They were a total chore, not enough space at my home resort to ski them. They were not fun for the conditions where I want something to arc turns the whole way down and the groomers might not be 100m wide.
I didn’t learn my lesson though and picked up some old Stockli SL and GS skis, although the latter have a more realistic 22.9m sidecut. I have to imagine the groomer zoomer skis like a Speedzone are more fun than a 30m radius race ski. In my case I found the Stocklis at a yardsale for $10 each with 914 or metal 916s and couldn’t pass them up!
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You are going to die.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian
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I think it's hard to make race skis fun if you don't have a race background.
If you just want to make a bunch of turns, a short radius carver like the Head SuperShape, Nordica Spitfire, Stockli AX, or whatever is going to be a lot more fun to make snappy slalom turns and mke the most of mellow man-made groomers. I prefer skis like the HL r87/r99, mx83/mx88, etc. for the ability to make varied turn shapes, relax on the traverses, ski with friends and still lay trenches at any time independent of speed or pitch. There's a pair of Enforcer 88s in GS that fit the bill. I don't think a purpose-built race ski is going to make any of that a reality for you.
Now, if you have tons of open space and the room to let them run, and are looking for speed then a race ski could be fun, just don't fuck up.
Up at the hill there are a lot of 183 womens GS FIS norm rossi double decks sez hand made in austria screened right on the top sheet in big letters
A former Alpine Canada rep was bringing them in for us virtualy brand new for 199$ now he sells RE
apparently the ski became useless for racing when they changed the rules, the tuning radius was >30M radius which is also screened right on the top sheet
With a chunk of Tr-block I won my class in the DH so they are fast, they are fun when it hasnt snowed for awhile, not hard to turn the biggest unfun is getting into any kind of untracked
When I say "turns" I mean edge hold huge radius train tracks at 40+ mph.
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Been a few years since I’ve skied BS, but pretty sure there’s room to ski a proper GS ski there. People on the run can be more prohibitive than anything though. Getting out early on super cold days with no fresh can be tough, but rewarding.
For myself I learned that there’s a lot more to 2D snow than I thought. True hero snow can be as rare as a big pow day.
Everything is a compromise. A race ski is going to be the right tool early, but as conditions change (snow and people) they can absolutely suck. Are you willing to head back to the car after an hour to change to a conditions appropriate ski?
I have two recent days on my R99 comps, and honestly don’t think I’d need any more ski. For more hard snow performance if you could grab an R87, or something similar, it’d fill the role you’re looking for. I sometimes grab the race skis but it’s usually more for a change of pace than the performance gain.
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Going against the crowd here: I vote full GS race ski, not dumbed down, 188-192cm. 3* side edge. Stay on the groomers.
One of the ones I have is an Elan labeled as a skicross ski, radius >33m. Fun!
see redQuote:
Originally Posted by XXX-er
also red yeah i got rossi and atomic mixed up
Attachment 479834
I’ve taken my kids old GS skis out a couple of times this week and for ripping groomers there’s nothing like it - so fast, so much edge grip, alot of fun when the other skiing isn’t the greatest.
I’m skiing a 182/25m Rossi, maybe a year or two newer than what you posted up thread.
I’m not a former racer but I’ve picked up a thing or two over the years so technique is decent but not great. Simply no way I’d want a FIS 30m on an open resort run - I think I’d kill or maim myself or worse, someone else. I do wonder about trying the 185/27m that kid is racing this year that I might keep for myself but honestly i feel my boot (rx130) over flexing before I notice the ski too soft.
If that Rossi is cheap go for it - sure the performance frontside groomer category of ski might be more versatile but I don’t think they can match a real race ski if you keep it in the right terrain - and I think radius matters more than length for those of us without formal race training seeking to rip a GS ski around on open resort runs
I have some fischer gs skis that are similar. I have no racing background and really have no idea what I'm doing, but they're stupid fun when the conditions are truly horrible. Lay massive trenches in the iciest ice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian
That said, they're also terrifying. They don't even start to work until close to 40 mph, and once they lock into a carve, they are locked in like no other ski I have ever been on. A run like Mr. K is bordering on too flat / slow to really make those skis work (at least for me).
I also have some blizzard non-fis spec beer league gs skis. Those things are way friendlier. Still carve a nice trench, but work at more reasonable speeds and are considerably less scary. Much more manageable when other people are around too.
My hard snow ski is the MX83. I like it’s versatility more than the Supershape type skis. I’ve tried gs race skis but they’re not fun on an open piste with others around.
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I mean, this is TGR… get all 3
This is so true. They are best suited to skiing alone or with similarly equipped friends.Quote:
Originally Posted by east or bust
I use to race, and the idea of someone coming down the hill behind me that has never raced or been on race skis, on a 30m GS ski is terrifying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony911
I completely agree.
this is what you seek. https://www.coloradodiscountskis.com...C_Xcell14.html