Ortovox Col Bechei is a touring specific soft shell with big pit zips.Quote:
Originally Posted by XXX-er
Plus huge front mesh backed pockets; merino next to skin.
Sweet piece (and pricey); sadlythe only size that was on sale was too small.
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Ortovox Col Bechei is a touring specific soft shell with big pit zips.Quote:
Originally Posted by XXX-er
Plus huge front mesh backed pockets; merino next to skin.
Sweet piece (and pricey); sadlythe only size that was on sale was too small.
As you have discovered, this is no industry standard for what constitutes a "soft-shell" and it encompasses the spectrum from Windshirt (i.e Patagonia Houdini) to stretchy fabrics with a membrane. But often a "soft-shell" is more durable than an insulation piece because the face fabric is much more robust (hence the -shell in the name). What layers will work for you vary a lot based on your fitness and touring goals, you location, and the weather that day. But for the most part you don't need much -- ski touring is 80%+ walking uphill. What would you wear to go for a run in the winter? That's a better comparison to touring than lift served skiing is.
If you want to keep it really simple, I'd say for the upper body you need a
-synthetic base layer (YMMV, some love merino),
-some type of breathable insulation/midlayer (I prefer Polartec Powerstretch fleece but its not sexy anymore compared to the fancy synthetic insulations)
-light puffy jacket (or bigger puffy if it's really cold),
-Windshirt (or soft-shell du jour). this might be in addition to or instead of the fleece or puffy depending on how cold or windy it is. If it's calm I might only wear it for a long descent, if it's blustery I wear it on the ascent or long ridge traverse. In May I just bring the Windshirt only and with a hood it gives sun protection.
After a half dozen tours you can figure out what hasn't left your backpack. But mostly you need LESS and just keep moving, avoid slow transitions and treat it more like going for a run. Since that only tangentially addresses your question, I will add the below:
what do you consider a softshell: the Atom/Proton or the Procline? The Procline.
would it be common to have Nano/Atom/Proton under the Procline? Not for ski touring, sounds too hot on the up and too heavy to carry the Procline just for the down.
Would you use a jacket like the Procline also on the way down? is it a replacement or a complement to a hardshell? Who uses a hardshell touring (I think some people in the PNW do?) I haven't taken a hardshell touring in the last 10 years. I also don't wear hardshell to run no matter what the weather including 30deg rain.
how many things do you keep in the backpack then (windshirt, puffy, nano air, softshell, hardshell, etc)? As little as possible. Just puffy, Windshirt, or maybe both on very specific days.
i see the Procline is windproof, but not waterproof. Do you simply check the forecast and then decide what to bring, or carry both hardshell and softshell? Do you go ski touring in the rain? I do sometimes. I still don't wear a hardshell. Why do you need a waterproof layer to walk uphill?
thanks a lot! I hope that was helpful.
first of all thank you so much for responding to my query, very insightful thread at the end.
So at the end one of the below 3 would be my choice, mostly for splitboarding or for going up with snowshoes and board on the backpack
https://arcteryx.com/us/en/shop/mens/procline-jacket
I understand Gore Infinium is supposed to be very breathable, have some bikers friends who love it, however if it breathes so well why then the armpit zip? someone might ask and also if it so weather resistant then it might not breathe so well
https://arcteryx.com/us/en/shop/mens/gamma-lt-hoody
This is a classic favourite by many
https://rab.equipment/eu/kinetic-2-0-jacket
i discovered this by chance and it seems to hit all the criteria. However not so many reviews/comparisons on the web, and also i read it does have a membrane, so based on this thread "if it has a membrane, doesnt breathe well". Do you have any experience with it? i read RAB has great quality
would you go straight with the GAMMA LT without any further ado?
thanks again
I guess we're just built differently. Windshirts just don't breathe enough for me. I'm way more comfortable in a stretch woven that has an open enough weave that you can breath through. They still block wind way more than 'sweaters', whatever that means. They eliminate breezes, and reduce gusts to just a breeze which is perfect for keeping me dry and comfortably cool. I adjust my baselayer (powerstretch on really cold days) to be comfortable with no jacket on below treeline out of the wind and then I'm good till I break treeline and toss the softshell on. If I'm cold starting out, I sometimes wear it till I warm up. I prefer a steady amount of airflow regardless of what I'm wearing, unless it's really nasty out above treeline.Quote:
Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!
Armpit zips increase versatility by allowing you to get a sudden increase in ventilation or slight increase from the baseline (by leaving them slightly open) when conditions aren't perfect for whatever your layers are. In wetter conditions they let you keep the shell on to a warmer temp (being under your arms, the shell keeps shedding).Quote:
Originally Posted by lorcar
Conditions change. People are different. Nothing is perfect. Anyone who tells you they never need "X" level of insulation, water resistance, wind resistance, etc is speaking to their own body and the conditions they're willing to get out in. Take it with a grain of salt or look closely at how similar your own tastes (and local conditions and physiology) are to theirs.
Lindahl and I've Seen Black Diamonds (see above) are at different points on those spectrums. They'll both be right for themselves and wrong for some others.
We could be honest and say "a soft shell is a shell that's soft" and note that different levels of each prized shell feature (breathability, weatherproofing, durability) are more or less appropriate in different combinations, conditions and for different people. We could say that. But this is TGR. We have a bullfighting forum based entirely on the principle that we would rather get pedantic about defining jacket features than features of men. And once you build that forum you don't just start admitting that wordy definitions and rigid, staunchly-defended positions might be overkill. Hell no. If anything, you start daydreaming about better jackets in which to fight bulls. Comfort? WATER? Call me when 2 tons of muscle are driving the horns right at your precious pit zips. Then we can give this topic the serious consideration it deserves.
For sure. Except I still agree with Lindahl et al. that a softshell can't have a membrane.Quote:
Originally Posted by jono
I run hot, don't sweat much and ski mostly in the Indian Peaks and RMNP where heavy wind is almost constant. So a layer that provides good wind protection and little insulation is perfect. I've skied with this skinny Italian dude a few times who will be wearing a softshell over a fleece when I'm wearing a t-shirt.
I have a hybrid soft shell with membrane. It has a membrane on the upper arms, shoulders
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This speaks to the real purpose of these forums, thank you. To clarify (since the physical softness of a shell need not necessarily be reduced by the presence of a membrane, of course) do you mean you would not admit such an item into your kit or that the Canon should not allow such vulgar uses of our beatified jargon? TIAQuote:
Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!
I mean that the older, simpler and generally more useful way of differentiating hardshells and softshells is that the former have membranes and the latter don't. There is nothing wrong with a soft, stretchy hardshell. I use one for resort skiing. I also have a nice old Patagonia softshell with no membrane that barely stretches at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by jono
But outdoor clothing brands have been using the the term "softshell " to refer to anything soft for quite a while. They also use terms like "stretch hardshell" or "waterproof softshell." Whatever helps sell a product.
None of this offends me. And I have no doubt that Arcteryx et al. will win the jargon war over aspiring codgers like me. But I'll stick with the older usage, which speaks clearly to construction and purpose. If you want to call a carrot a penis, go for it.
I have a hybrid soft shell with membrane. It has a membrane on the upper arms, shoulders
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thanks a lot, I appreciate and that's the reason why now with my last question I mainly would like to hear about the three different technologies/membranes i posted (Infinium, Arc, Rab), if Gore is better/worse than Rab membrane in terms of breathability etc. I grew up thinking GoreTex was the holy grail only to realize that was not the case. I hear a lot of good things about Gore Infinium but I am concerned it might be just marketing, so i'd appreciate any direct comparison/experience with classic Gamma or other brandsQuote:
Originally Posted by jono
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion.Quote:
Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!
If you search around a bit for MiCol's posts (and/or Freeride Systems) you'll notice that the same materials are generally available to different manufacturers (with notable exceptions). It might be more generally useful to look at specific fabric rather than brand/model of jacket (when possible).Quote:
Originally Posted by lorcar
I have this piece and I love it, it will replace my older Gore-Tex jacket as my hard shell for backcountry skiing, (and a lot of inbounds). I like to think of these newer designs as stretchy hard-shells. It’s definitely a hard shell, but it’s amazing how much stretch it has, so you can almost size down. Goretex futurelight seems similar, maybe not as much stretch.Quote:
Originally Posted by lorcar
I briefly had their touring pants with the same material. Definitely stretchy but the backer fabric made it too warm for most uses here in the Sierra like pretty much all other hardshells.Quote:
Originally Posted by plugboots
Here in Washington, I’ve toured in my Gore-Tex pants, I think, once because it was raining. Always soft shell pants for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoSlowGoFar
is there any Neo shell around nowdays ? I still have a marmot I bought in 2013, it breathes but not as well as other soft shells so its good for colder weather. IME Neoshell is more water resistant than most soft shells but not like a hardshell I dunno if its changed any but IME a piece is on a continuim of either it breathes more or its more water proof
I work on probably 100 Gortex or wannabe dry suit a year that are abused hard in a rescue 3 swift water course by people who don't know what they re doing, So IME there is Gortex and then there is every thing else in terms of the products staying togetehr, I got 10 yr old real gortex that are still working fine and i got pretenders that are de-laminating almost right out of the plastic wrapper
has anyone fondled the new Procline stuff from Arcteryx? I've yet to see it show up in stores but I have a Arc giftcard burning a hole in my wallet
I kinda regret selling my old procline jacket for running around town, but honestly prefer the nano air light/houdini combination better for active pursuits.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennymac
The real problem with Gore is that they're overcommitted by necessity to the idea that a jacket needs to be waterproof to an extreme. As a result, they won't ever breathe well. If they step away from the idea of a waterproof jacket, then I'd probably pay attention. Until then, it doesn't make much sense to me in a skiing jacket (maybe resorts, but even then I prefer Neoshell or similar).Quote:
Originally Posted by lorcar
Haven't fondled it but not super impressed for touring from what I have seen. Pow skirt on a "softshell" (which it barely is imo) seems like unnecessary weight and hassle, would rather have $37 off the price. It is HEAVY, almost 150g heavier than my FRS hardshell. It's also heavier than every sleeping bag I own and my heavy weight belay jacket.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennymac
Gore-tex infinium is also not breathable IMO. It has a membrane as discussed above. It makes sense in hybrid layers (where is is only used on pieces of the jacket) only imo. However, I would consider the jacket for sunny but windy inbounds use (happens a lot in CA) and the pants would be nice for a lighter weight all weather touring option. For touring if you need the weather protection of infinium over other membrane-less softshells I think you would be better served with an "Electrospun membrane" hardshell - NF Futurelight, OR stuff, the rab kinetic, etc.
An Arc Softshell I would like touring is the Trino SL - which has a infinium front, shoulders, and arms but then a membrane-less back and sides for superior breathability or the Gamma LT/SL for completely membrane-less.
^ your knowledge and common sense is conflicting with my naive consumeristic tendency to accumulate more unnecessary ski clothing
Just buy a Trino SL, Squamish, and Alpha SL Anorak. Then you get a windshell, hybrid softshell, and hardshell all for about the same weight combined as the procline. And you lighten your wallet!Quote:
Originally Posted by bennymac
Meh, I use goretex pants with hip and thigh vents mid-winter. They dump heat/breath better than a soft shell when vents are open and are warmer then soft shells when closed.Quote:
Originally Posted by plugboots
Different strokes for different folks, that should be the tread title.
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Hell, I can’t even remember from year to year what ‘system’ worked for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn
Nah, I vote for my way or the highway.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn
I have that Rab jacket, it definitely has a membrane. I use it or an old Patagonia guide hoody (which is a light weight woven soft shell) depending on temps. Sweat wicking thin poly base layer and either jacket on top. Rab jacket is good from 10-20 degrees. Patagonia guide hoody for anything warmer, or just a thin base layer. Synthetic puffy goes on top of everything before descending. And I always carry a back up down puffy (MH ghost whisperer or more insulated depending on temps) in case of emergency. My only dislike of the RAB jacket is that it’s stinky, and I’m not a particularly smelly person.Quote:
Originally Posted by lorcar
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Depends. I have a lot of choices, and the lightest are my ancient Arc’teryx soft shells, so I agree with you, but my soft shells are lighter so I always pick light.Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag
The guide at the local hut had one of the big name mfger's at his hut for a week skiing/ pictures/ gear testing/ team building,
They bring duffels full of the stuff so one of them asked what jacket to wear and he said " I don't know i only have 1 "
So I just picked up the marmot ROM 2.0 on sale from the goat village store. Nice design, light and well laid out. Seems like a good snowshoe, tour and shoulder season piece. Hope to try this weekend
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Again on the topic: do you use softshell jacket also in deep/fresh snow, freeriding? i understand the improved breathability, especially needed on the way up. How do you manage it on the way down, especially when snow might get into or over the jacket, or you are knee-deep? i read there are people loving Softshell and never going back to hardshell.
Do you pack both soft and hardshell or just softshell? of hardshell only if you know it will snow?
i am asking because from time to time i fall down and snow gets into anywhere, so i would be concerned of using my new softshell on the way down.
Soft shell works for me except when it is snowing really hard and near freezing. Then I like the top half of the jacket to have a membrane. Since I like to have one go to jacket, this is the style I bought this Fall. A HH Odin hybrid. Been using this winter and like it..
For typical mid winter conditions, it’s softshell on the up, Insulated hardshell over the top on the transitions and descents. In milder conditions, often just the softshell.Quote:
Originally Posted by lorcar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorcar
Soft shell stays on all day, start skinning with puffy over softshell , stow the puffy after 15min, puffy goes over softshell at the top & for the ride down, if you worry about putting holes in puffy put it inside the softshell for the down
i almost never take a hardshell
ime doing up all the zips & hood on the soft shell are snow resistant enough to deal with snow if you fall
i see alot of new skiers sweating a bunch IMO wearing too much clothing, I don't need to wear much on the up when I am making heat, then insulate at the top
Depends on how cold. In Colorado, fresh snow almost always means cold temps, so no hardshell everQuote:
Originally Posted by lorcar
100% to all of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl
Picked up the BD Dawn Patrol a couple of weeks back, and have a few tours and resort days in it thus far.
Overall pretty impressed.
Of the three jackets Ive been touring in over the past 18 months: Ferosi, San Jaun, and Dawn Patrol - The DP falls solidly in the middle. The San Jaun is almost like a hardshell, but still has some nice features. Ferosi is great because it backs really small and is light, but offers little insulation - which makes it great for spring days. Thing that sucks about the ferosi is lack of skin pockets internal...
BD DP is a slightly heavier material weight to the Ferosi, easy to tour in, and still has a bunch of really nice pockets including skin pockets internally. I even used it this weekend in some pretty balmy PNW sun, and it still was able to breath fairly well.
One caveat to the Dawn Patrol - Some folks dont like the "freeride" fit, so keep in mind its a tad looser than other outer layers.
I just wish the Dawn Patrol didn’t have that fleece backer fabric. Then it’d be about perfect, until that changes its the Gamma LT Hoody for the win.
I have the BD Dawn Patrol (non hybrid) version and love it. Has enough wind and water resistance that it has been my only shell for 2 seasons of touring in the Wasatch (~80ntours/year)
If it is in the teens or single digits I'll wear a heavier base and add a lightweight midlayer underneath, I have a couple different weight baselayers and generally (anything above 20°F) I go a baselayer and just the Dawn Patrol jacket it is rare if I use a mid layer.