The Hot Tub of Queso/Waxed Chain Thread

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Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong

Similarly, I’m keeping my Silca drip around as a fall back if I don’t get around to hot waxing - haven’t needed it yet.

Not sure how it’s working with the Squirt over the MSW, but in general Squirt is quite difficult to clean off the chain, whereas hot wax and some of the newer drip waxes can be cleaned off the chain with just some swishing around in hot water. Maybe something to keep in mind when choosing a lube to supplement hot wax.

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We've been trying some different supplemental lubes, but haven't tried the Silca or UFO. Trying to stick more with a wax based and since we're not using much at all, cleaning has not been an issue. Its not anywhere near a full application of Squirt.
As far as cleaning goes before a Re-Molten Speed Queso-ing, we have an old Nalgene that we put some solvent from the tank in, and soak/shake it for a minute or two. Shake/wipe dry and hit with some air, then another minute or two in a bottle with some denatured alcohol for the final clean and that stuff evaporates off it in a few min. Then the queso dip.
I just looked at UFO....$45msrp?!! Even at cost, that seems bonkers, but I guess it lasts.

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Originally Posted by joetron

We've been trying some different supplemental lubes, but haven't tried the Silca or UFO. Trying to stick more with a wax based and since we're not using much at all, cleaning has not been an issue. Its not anywhere near a full application of Squirt.
As far as cleaning goes before a Re-Molten Speed Queso-ing, we have an old Nalgene that we put some solvent from the tank in, and soak/shake it for a minute or two. Shake/wipe dry and hit with some air, then another minute or two in a bottle with some denatured alcohol for the final clean and that stuff evaporates off it in a few min. Then the queso dip.
I just looked at UFO....$45msrp?!! Even at cost, that seems bonkers, but I guess it lasts.

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Silca Super Secret Drip/Tru-Tension Tungsten All Weather/Ceramic Speed UFO Drip are all newer style wax lubes where the waxes in the formula are the same types as being used in Molten Speed Wax/Silca Hot Melt.

Because they are more highly refined/lower oil, they can all be cleaned by simply swishing the chain around in a few changes of hot water; the wax just melts out and floats in the water.

Maybe not as big an issue for a shop where you have solvent tanks anyway, and are likely filtering/recirculating that solvent, but for cleaning at home it’s really nice to be able to just clean with hot water instead of dealing with the cost and disposal of solvents.

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Originally Posted by GeorgiaSnow

The initial clean is work

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Doesn’t have to be. Similar to joetron, I shake in a jar of mineral spirits followed by a shake in a jar of alcohol. Easy peasy, and if you cap the containers you can reuse the juice, nearly infinitely if you’re willing to occasionally filter. I still use drip queso (Smoove), though.

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Originally Posted by joetron

As far as cleaning goes before a Re-Molten Speed Queso-ing, we have an old Nalgene that we put some solvent from the tank in, and soak/shake it for a minute or two. Shake/wipe dry and hit with some air, then another minute or two in a bottle with some denatured alcohol for the final clean and that stuff evaporates off it in a few min.

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Originally Posted by GeorgiaSnow

The initial clean is work, but probably work everyone should be doing because all lubes perform better/your chain will last longer if you remove the factory sludge.

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It can be, I tried naptha ( white gas ) cuz there was a can in the shed ... works great

Take the chain off, put it on a piece of wire for ease of handling , coil chain into the bottom of a jam jar , pour in enough white gas ( naptha ) to cover the chain by an inch, no scrubbing is needed just let it sit over night in a jar with the lid on, in the am pull the chain out let it hang for a few minutes, the naptha will evap instantly and the chain will be 100 % clean/ dry


simple green is bad for soaking parts, as far as I know soaking in naptha has no ill effect on metal

white gas for your coleman stove cost is about 20$ a gallon so the same, naptha can be used > once, its flammmable so don't burn your garage down

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

It can be, I tried naptha ( white gas ) cuz there was a can in the shed ... works great

Take the chain off, put it on a piece of wire for ease of handling , coil chain into the bottom of a jam jar , pour in enough white gas ( naptha ) to cover the chain by an inch, no scrubbing is needed just let it sit over night in a jar with the lid on, in the am pull the chain out let it hang for a few minutes, the naptha will evap instantly and the chain will be 100 % clean/ dry


simple green is bad for soaking parts, as far as I know soaking in naptha has no ill effect on metal

white gas for your coleman stove cost is about 20$ a gallon so the same, naptha can be used > once, its flammmable so don't burn your garage down

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Agree, Coleman fuel works great. I still followed up with an alcohol rinse just to be sure there wouldn’t be any residue left.

Regular simple green can cause hydrogen embrittlement, don’t leave your parts soaking in that. There is also Simple Green Extreme Aircraft, which won’t cause embrittlement and should be safe to soak parts in.

The chain looked 100% petro free/ clean/ dry, so i was good with that

after cleaning off the naptha residue with alcohol what did you use to deal with the alcohol residue ?

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

The chain looked 100% petro free/ clean/ dry, so i was good with that

after cleaning off the naptha residue with alcohol what did you use to deal with the alcohol residue ?

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No noticeable residue from the Naptha, just followed it up with alcohol since that’s the recommended final step from Squirt and others - but they’re typically using mineral spirits instead of Naptha in the first step.

Alcohol should completely evaporate. Hydrocarbon solvents could have some heavier molecules (oil/grease) that don’t evaporate easily; more heavier molecules in Mineral Spirits than Naptha though.

Dude, I was just yanking your chain

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

Dude, I was just yanking your chain

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Sarcasm detector fails me sometimes, which is ironic since I’m a pretty sarcastic SOB

I thot yanking your chain in a thread on chainlube was priceless

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

I thot yanking your chain in a thread on chainlube was priceless

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Apparently everything is going over my head today

Haha, was trying to throw a bone to the non-queso crowd in saying the initial clean was some work. It’s more work than just dripping on some traditional lube and pedaling. But, like I said, cleaning off the factory gunk probably is wise regardless of what you use. In that case, it’s definitely less work to run wax when you consider how little maintenance is required after the initial setup.

Re: dirty area. Not a moon dust area. Really wet, muddy area. Trail’s are slow to dry. Lots of creek crossings. But will also get dry dust in certain spots. Super humid southeast sand and mud-riding. Just feel like I can’t keep my bike clean around here, drivetrain was always squawking by the end of a long ride till I switched to wax (molten speedwax for me).


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before wax I would just use a liberal amount of pro-gold right on a chain right out of the wrapper to clean & lube as I ride,

then shop bro told me wax was the shit, he was into Boesheild, I stumbled onto squirt on-line tried it and stuck with it, not very scientific

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Originally Posted by joetron

I’ve been Molten Speed Queso-ing then using a tiny bit of Squirt to augment when I can start to hear a chirp or even just a little more ‘mechanical’ noise from my drivetrain. It’s been working great and chainwear measurement has been insanely good.
I’ve also had chirps disappear after a few minutes of pedaling as I assume the wax is warming up and re-penetrating where it needs to be.
We’ll be rolling out some sort of hot wax treatment/subscription at the shop next spring, for sure.


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The re-penetration is essential to the testing and why Zero Friction uses a test rig that has high and low-tension zones (just like your drivetrain). They note that this is the most accurate test vs. other companies whom run high-tension on their tester and get very different results.

FWIW I think that SILCA drip is better than squirt in almost every facet, except that it's lower viscosity which makes it more difficult to drip with precision (I see dimes falling everytime Silca drip hits the floor).

Reference: https://cyclingtips.com/2021/05/alli...ed-for-gravel/

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Originally Posted by GeorgiaSnow

Haha, was trying to throw a bone to the non-queso crowd in saying the initial clean was some work. It’s more work than just dripping on some traditional lube and pedaling. But, like I said, cleaning off the factory gunk probably is wise regardless of what you use. In that case, it’s definitely less work to run wax when you consider how little maintenance is required after the initial setup.

Re: dirty area. Not a moon dust area. Really wet, muddy area. Trail’s are slow to dry. Lots of creek crossings. But will also get dry dust in certain spots. Super humid southeast sand and mud-riding. Just feel like I can’t keep my bike clean around here, drivetrain was always squawking by the end of a long ride till I switched to wax (molten speedwax for me).


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This would be interesting for the Silca synergetic lube. You can wipe it pretty dry and it does OK in dusty areas. Likely runs a touch more friction than Wax, but lasts longer, so potentially better performance.

On Ultra-long rides (e.g. Kokopelli), I have two techniques that I worked through with Adam from Zero Friction
1. Carry a second chain that is fully waxed and ready to go (this is nice because it offers a backup chain, JIC).
2. Re-lube the waxed chain with the synergetic when the waxed chain gets dry. (Re-lubing with wax without adequate time to dry leads to severely diminished returns.)

I pulled the wheels off my bike and tossed it in my car. When I reassembled it I found the chain had fallen off the front ring. Kind of a PITA with this chain guide but oh well. So I'm fucking with my chain trying to find the sweet spot where it slips through the little space and back onto the ring. So to make a short story long, after handling my chain I looked at my hands. They were fucking clean. This is the original chain that came with the bike in Feb 2020. It was queso dipped when new, cleaned and redipped once this spring. I drizzle bit of white lightning on it now and then but nothing more. I broke out my chain checker and it still doesn't register as stretched out. I'm beginning to think there might be something to this queso dip.

I'd edit to add this but it deletes when I try that so:

My queso mix is 4 parts parafin, 1 part bees wax and some PTFE. It recently got contaminated with a tiny bit of coconut oil when I burned some mustache wax I was mixing. I added about 1/4 part coconut oil and another 3/4 part bees wax to my mix.

I just spit my coffee on the screen when I read “I burned some mustache wax I was adding”
I don’t know why that was so funny.

I used to go through a chain/year.
Using the 2 chain switching, queso method both mine and Mrs Roxtar's XTR chains are still going strong after three years.

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Originally Posted by Dee Hubbs

I just spit my coffee on the screen when I read “I burned some mustache wax I was adding”
I don’t know why that was so funny.

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What can he say, he is very courteous to Beavers.

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Originally Posted by Dee Hubbs

I just spit my coffee on the screen when I read “I burned some mustache wax I was adding”
I don’t know why that was so funny.

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the FN will smudge a little sweet grass to get rid of bad ju-ju maybe the Beav was trying to get rid of the spirits that messed with his mounting a Minion on a Stan's rim ?

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Originally Posted by Dee Hubbs

I just spit my coffee on the screen when I read “I burned some mustache wax I was adding”
I don’t know why that was so funny.

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New Tech Talk thread: Mix Your Own Fucking Mustache Wax

In other news, I started using Silca Super Secret drip-on and it’s held up incredibly well. Not sure I ever want to go full crock pot queso but the Silca dude says this is as close a drip on can get, and it’s much more approachable.

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Originally Posted by Falcon3

New Tech Talk thread: Mix Your Own Fucking Mustache Wax

In other news, I started using Silca Super Secret drip-on and it’s held up incredibly well. Not sure I ever want to go full crock pot queso but the Silca dude says this is as close a drip on can get, and it’s much more approachable.

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Just do it!

I have a tub of Super Secret just sitting. Gone full Queso w/ Molten Speed Wax and not going back. I tell myself the Silca’s there for back-up in case I can’t fit the Queso dip in one time, but hasn’t actually happened.

The Queso process is super simple. More time than if all you ever do is just drop some lube on your dirty chain, but if you spend virtually any time cleaning your chain/drivetrain then the actual hands on time involved is probably less for Queso.

The Molten is so good I've quit using my own diy mixture.

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Originally Posted by Falcon3

Silca dude says this is as close a drip on can get, and it’s much more approachable.

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Not sure if this is the case, but if you watched the Silca video on hot melt, they make it way more complicated than it needs to be.

I do what Zero Friction recommends:

- wipe chain with rag sprayed with alcohol to remove surface dust

- remove chain from bike and thread onto swisher tool’ (bent coat hanger or similar)

- Optional: if cleaning is necessary (wet/mud riding) boil a pot of water and swish chain around for 30 seconds for three changes of water. Then blow dry with a compressor (or hairdryer)

- place chain in crockpot and turn heat to low. Leave uncovered.

- come back when wax is melted (an hour, next day, whenever) and swish the chain for 5-10 seconds

-hang chain to drip/cool

-break wax bond by bending chain around something (I run it around a cabinet handle)

- install chain

Don’t bother with cooling the wax to just above its hardening point. No evidence that has benefits, just wastes your time and extra wax.

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Originally Posted by Roxtar

The Molten is so good I've quit using my own diy mixture.

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Zero Friction has tested some DIY and they don’t perform the same as the commercial stuff - much better than most drip lubes though.

The base waxes the commercial guys are using are not the same stuff you can just grab from the store shelf. Also Silca and MSW are using Tungsten Disulfide instead of Teflon/PTFE. It’s lower friction while also environmentally sound (apparently).

Does anyone know if there is any difference in the new MSW pucks and last year's MSW bags?

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Originally Posted by Roxtar

Does anyone know if there is any difference in the new MSW pucks and last year's MSW bags?

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Pucks and last year’s bags should be the same formula, just different format. There was a period where they were phasing out PTFE, but unless you got old stock last year the bag was likely from past the end of all that.

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Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong

Zero Friction has tested some DIY and they don’t perform the same as the commercial stuff - much better than most drip lubes though.

The base waxes the commercial guys are using are not the same stuff you can just grab from the store shelf. Also Silca and MSW are using Tungsten Disulfide instead of Teflon/PTFE. It’s lower friction while also environmentally sound (apparently).

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The base wax I was using came from these guys:
https://www.skifastwax.com/
They're amazing, crazy, wax-scientist types. Far and away, the best ski waxes I've ever used.
For a short period, they offered a chainwax made of a very high end, flouro, ski wax. I added moly and PTFE to that.

EDIT: I just searched and found some:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Fast-Wax-...-Kit/101212955

I’ve got shit tons of flouro ski wax…if I mask up can I just lump it all together and go?


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I just received a sample of a chain wax that's being made by a long-time maker of flouro-free ski wax*. It's quite different from what I've used previously: pretty low melt temp (I'm told it can be adjusted, possibly by the end-user). It's actually so soft I was able to drip some on by melting it in my hand, so I expect at this formulation it will run liquid at every bend in the chain at most riding temps (as opposed to just melting at highly-loaded bend points, which seems probable for most quesos).

Is this unique among chain waxes? Wet dipped or dripped, I've always had a fully dry chain once wax is applied, but the possibility of wet inside/dry outside has me very intrigued. I plan to put this stuff on the fat bike chains as-is, but it seems a little low-temp for the desert, for example. We'll see how it goes in the NW ~70´s riding. (I still need another wipe/apply cycle to judge if it's collecting anything significant on the chains or not.)

* https://www.greenicewax.com/

The chemist who makes this knows his stuff. PM if you would like to beta test this and give feedback and/or want a discount code for Green Ice ski wax. PSA upcoming in Tech Talk, but MAGGOT30 gets 30% off (more available by PM for now).

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Originally Posted by jono

I just received a sample of a chain wax that's being made by a long-time maker of flouro-free ski wax*. It's quite different from what I've used previously: pretty low melt temp (I'm told it can be adjusted, possibly by the end-user). It's actually so soft I was able to drip some on by melting it in my hand, so I expect at this formulation it will run liquid at every bend in the chain at most riding temps (as opposed to just melting at highly-loaded bend points, which seems probable for most quesos).

Is this unique among chain waxes? Wet dipped or dripped, I've always had a fully dry chain once wax is applied, but the possibility of wet inside/dry outside has me very intrigued. I plan to put this stuff on the fat bike chains as-is, but it seems a little low-temp for the desert, for example. We'll see how it goes in the NW ~70´s riding. (I still need another wipe/apply cycle to judge if it's collecting anything significant on the chains or not.)

* https://www.greenicewax.com/

The chemist who makes this knows his stuff. PM if you would like to beta test this and give feedback and/or want a discount code for Green Ice ski wax. PSA upcoming in Tech Talk, but MAGGOT30 gets 30% off (more available by PM for now).

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No experience with that wax, but when Zero Friction tested the Absolute Black Queso it performed very poorly, and their hypothesis was that it was due to it being softer than Silca/MSW:

https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/w...ENwax-v1.1.pdf

FWIW, the Absolute Black drip lube tested very well.

That's interesting. It would be kind of optimistic if hardness was the cause, since a harder wax might be a little less sticky. But what of the hypothesis that it's due to the graphene? Do they address that? (Sorry, 57 pages is a long read.)

I particularly note AB's claim about graphene: "It has extremely low friction coefficient in all the environments, is far stronger than any known material to a man and it can cling to metal"

I mean, which is it? What's to stop it from clinging to both pieces of metal and maybe folding over and digging in? I could see the argument for graphite or Bucky Balls, but unless you can wrap the pins in (giant) nanotubes, what's the point of getting silly with carbon?

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Originally Posted by jono

…what's the point of getting silly with carbon?

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Marketing, I’d assume.

Is graphene strong enough to ‘dig in’ to the metal? I’d assume it would break since it’s so thin and brittle.

My assumption is the base wax is by far the biggest determinant of performance.

Additional note: The Absolute Black Graphene lube tests very well, and it also contains graphene, natch. If it was the graphene causing wear, it would likely be an issue for the drip on wax lube as well, right?

(Nowhere in the test result doc does he put the blame on graphene, based on a quick word search.)

No idea about the final mechanics at one atom thick, really, but if its strength is high enough to matter (as claimed?) it seems like it would. It's gonna be stronger than aluminum oxide, and that stuff makes a real nice abrasive.

But yeah, breaking apart is probably the best case scenario and maybe it's just irrelevant.

I just sold my 2020 Ripmo and just realized something. Both myself and Mrs. Roxtar have each gotten three years out of our XTR chains with no end in sight. They are still gauging well within limits.
In fairness, I do a two chain rotation with each bike (Allows me to change chains when I want and rewax when it's convenient) so that usage is cut in half but still pretty good.

how far is that ?

I did 2 full seasons of abuse on an E-bike which was 2200 kms with squirt

The old chain is < .75 so i put it back in the container for a spare

No idea. I don't keep up with mileage.
Figure 3-4 rides/week with a 10-11 month riding season in NM moon dust.

I usually don't pay attention to mileage either but E-bike has a speedo/ odometer, i would drip the squirt every 3 rides and let it dry overnight

Tonight at costco... 3kg tubs of queso for the intrepid cyclist.

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