Official Sprocket Rockets Training Thread

Ok, I can't take it anymore. Pickles can come and give you the bible, but in the meantime:

Generally, people have easy days that are too hard and hard days that are too easy. First, figure out if you have a good base of fitness - ie, is your aerobic threshold in a good place. If not, you need lots of long slow easy distance to give yourself a base. LSD. Very common need and focus this time of year. Once you have a good base then you can start to push the upper limit.

Your easy days should be really easy. Remember that you only get stronger when you recover, not when you ride. Lots of sleep, avoid stress, easy days VERY easy, so that you can heal up. Keep in mind that mental stress is just as bad as physical stress in terms of retarding progress. Then, when you work, you work VERY hard.

Again, there's obviously way way more to this story, but if you want the biggest thing that amateur cyclists do wrong, that's it. Break your body down, then let it build up. If you don't let it build back up, then breaking it down serves zero purpose.

EWG nails the point there.

I'll hold off on writing a big treatise, but I have had a thought the past few days that is relevant.

It's really hard to control one's effort on a MTB. I went out for a longer ride today and was shooting for a Z2 effort. The terrain, however, had other ideas. I was trying to limit the effort but still ended up with 33 minutes over Z2 in a 5 hour ride. (Bootleg, outside of Vegas, is pretty great, BTW.) Road riding is really a much better training tool....

I listened to this episode of the TR podcast on the ride today. Usually they just blather on, but this one is pretty focused, and might offer some useful info to some. I don't like that they mostly focus on sweet spot training, but I will admit that it is probably pretty good if one has less than 10hrs a week or so to train. If you can spend 15+hrs, you'll burn out with a lot of SS, and will be better served by a Polarized plan.

https://pca.st/episode/26ede37b-5c76...f-0c747c225bea

Thanks for starting this OP.

I've gone into the deep end with a coach the last 3 months leading up to Enduro race season. Structured rides on TrainingPeaks 3 days a week and 2 days a week in the gym with a small group of other MTB racers.

I had a good base to start, so we got into intervals pretty quickly.....now entering back into rest/LSD zone on the bike to allow some recovery before my first race on May 2nd.

The idea behind weight training is that bigger engine = more power AND a stronger body will help you avoid injury when you crash. Look at all the pro MTB guys in Enduro and DH. They are animals. Richie Rude could play in the fucking NFL.

In the gym we are doing a good bit of muscle confusion type stuff. Not just pushing big weight, but a ton of very interesting stuff using the whole gym. Squats, rows, every variation of push ups, the Quantum machine, etc etc. Lots of focus on core, shoulders, back, chest, explosive leg stuff.

I am getting bigger and my heart rate has really adapted from interval training. I can go 500-900+ watts in a sprint and then my heart rate will drop right down within a few seconds. It's amazing.

I will say this: Ride outside all you want, but it's VERY hard to do correct zone training the same way an indoor smart trainer in ERG mode can. An indoor trainer can really lock you into a zone and that's where the magic happens. Did an outdoor Z2 ride today on the gravel bike and it's damn near impossible to stay in a zone unless you live in Nebraska or something and have 20 miles of dead flat road to work with.

If you are serious do a VO2 max test because you can't properly train without the information gleaned from that test. Your HR zones are not what the little online calculator tells you they are.

My biggest issue: Nutrition. I am eating very clean, but I can stuff myself after a day of training and then by midnight I feel like my stomach is a black hole. I almost got up to cook breakfast at 3am today. I just cannot get enough food in most days.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian

Thanks for starting this OP.

My biggest issue: Nutrition. I am eating very clean, but I can stuff myself after a day of training and then by midnight I feel like my stomach is a black hole. I almost got up to cook breakfast at 3am today. I just cannot get enough food in most days.

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Good stuff!

From what you've said about your hunger issues, I would put money (or 12s Shimano chains, which are harder to come by) on the hypothesis that you're not eating enough WHILE training. Are you taking in 90 grams (360kCal) of carbs an hour? If not, try it. At first it will feel like you're constantly eating, but the results will speak for themselves.

For example, I rode for 5h moving time today. TSS 235. I ate a normal breakfast, then a big sandwich right before starting. Then every 30 mins or so I scarfed down some food (3 homemade rice bars, 1 Nature Valley bar, some Soreen malt bread) and also went through 1.5L of water and 25oz of maltodextrin/fructose blend (120 kC). When I finished I was only a little hungry, so I ate around 250 kC of recovery food immediately, then a regular sized dinner about an hour later. No lingering hunger. I'll probably do the same thing tomorrow, and expect the same results.

And I'll say it again, in case someone missed it last time I did: carbs are not the enemy. If you're really training, you need to fuel that shit, and carbohydrates are how you do it.

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Originally Posted by climberevan

Good stuff!

From what you've said about your hunger issues, I would put money (or 12s Shimano chains, which are harder to come by) on the hypothesis that you're not eating enough WHILE training. Are you taking in 90 grams (360kCal) of carbs an hour? If not, try it. At first it will feel like you're constantly eating, but the results will speak for themselves.

For example, I rode for 5h moving time today. TSS 235. I ate a normal breakfast, then a big sandwich right before starting. Then every 30 mins or so I scarfed down some food (3 homemade rice bars, 1 Nature Valley bar, some Soreen malt bread) and also went through 1.5L of water and 25oz of maltodextrin/fructose blend (120 kC). When I finished I was only a little hungry, so I ate around 250 kC of recovery food immediately, then a regular sized dinner about an hour later. No lingering hunger. I'll probably do the same thing tomorrow, and expect the same results.

And I'll say it again, in case someone missed it last time I did: carbs are not the enemy. If you're really training, you need to fuel that shit, and carbohydrates are how you do it.

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You are probably onto something.

If I remember to do a high carb recovery drink after a workout or ride I feel WAY better. On longer efforts I probably need to force myself to eat. That's become tougher for me.

I used to be constantly craving blocks/gels. Now I don't really get as hungry while riding which is weird.

What do you guys eat while on the bike? There are so many choices out there and I have no idea what is best.

Just eat carbs. Seriously, it doesn't have to be complicated.

If you want to be a cheapskate, like I was when I was 22, got can just mow down some Pop Tarts and Star Crunches on 130 mile rides. Flat Coke to wash it down. You really just need sugar. Worry about nutrients later, in your real meals.

Obviously this can be taken as far as one wants to go, but if you're not getting enough fuel, any form of it is going to be an improvement.

Man,
I step away for a moment and you all go deep.
I'll start picking through this today.

My hope is to both answer questions with quotes and also post in the first 2 Reference responses.

Maybe this has already been asked, but how does weight lifting fit into a polarized, cycling-focused training plan? Also, most of my workout windows are short, an hour or less.

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Originally Posted by radam

Maybe this has already been asked, but how does weight lifting fit into a polarized, cycling-focused training plan? Also, most of my workout windows are short, an hour or less.

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It has. 1-2x a week, heavy weight low-moderate reps.

I'm going to disagree a bit with the carbs statements above.

Doing too much Z3 and carb-fueled training may lead your body to abandon its aerobic metabolism mechanisms in favor of glycolytic fueling. You potentially limit your power output to whatever your body can digest in carbs and it won't be pulling from fat stores (which are essentially unlimited in your body- 100k+ calories even in very lean athletes).

Obviously this isn't how everyone will experience things, but looking at the carb/fat metabolism graphs at certain heartrates and threshholds for carb vs fat athletes is pretty telling.

Here's a great story about Adrian Ballinger and his path from carb-fueled workouts and climbing trips to fat-fueled.
https://www.uphillathlete.com/adrian...erestnofilter/

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

Is there anything to know about cramping that wasn't covered in Dylan Johnson's cramping video? I've made a DIY version of Hotshot that is fairly effective but I still have issues sometimes. I know that the data seems to show that the most effective treatment is to get in better shape, but I still have problems even when I'm well-trained. I never had issues with cramping most of my life, but about 10 years ago it became a chronic problem.

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I'll check Dylan's video, but will offer a few thoughts ahead of time (hopefully not contradictory).

Cramps are not well understood and the etiology (origin) is wide ranging.

In general if cramping is in specific muscles, especially working muscles, then it is likely a fatigue response. It's hard to know why this is, and the specifics of this aren't overly important but if you want to sound smart just mumble something about "Calcium uptake in the sarcoplasmic reticulum". That's also good for when you're running out of social energy at a party and want people to leave you alone.

To help this situation, you can either increase fitness prior to an event, decrease fatigue immediately for the event, or follow a more conservative pacing strategy.

If cramping is more generalized; e.g. multiple muscles at once or muscle not associated work, then they're likely due to electrolyte imbalance. In my opinion this is less common than people think, but some are more susceptible than others. Ask 10 people what is the best electrolyte to take and you'll get 10 answers shouted at you, which is funny because it's basically only Sodium, Calcium, Potassium, Chloride, and Magnesium that have major functions.

Which of these is your panacea is hard to say, but the longer you ride the more important they become.
If you do not drink, you have no reason to replace electrolytes. Your electrolyte concentration will increase because the concentrate in your sweat is less than your blood. Therefore, you sweat more water than electrolytes which increases the concentration in your blood.

We run into issues when we start drinking (in more ways than one...).

• Depending on your sweat rate, drinking 16oz / hour of plain water overly dilutes your electrolyte concentration after somewhere between 2 and 5 hours.

• Drinking 16oz / hour of something middle of the road like Skratch pushes this out a few hours.

• If you need to drink more because you're going very long, or if you tend to cramp due to due to low electrolytes and you either need to drink something very salty like First Endurance EFS Pro or take supplemental capsules.

Regarding "Hot shot" and the like. Because it seems that cramps have something to do with the reflex arc from your muscle to your spinal cord and back to your muscle, then disrupting that reflex arc can potentially help. Hot Short works by stimulating the vagus nerve which runs behind your throat (the spicy drink irritates the throat and in turn the vagus nerve). This can act like a reset to the system to hopefully override the nervous system contribution to the cramp. However, as a word of personal advice, these things can be hard on your stomach and cause you to have to "take out the trash" in the bushes 120 miles into the Belgian Waffle Ride...

This topic is a big one and i'll try to incorporate it into a more formal presentation and include resources up top.

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Originally Posted by climberevan

I'm stoked to see where this goes. Right now I'm in the midst of a big volume push to finish base season. After some consideration of a sweet spot focused plan for this year, I decided to stick with a polarized model, as that's worked well for me in the past. I also just like to spend 25 hours a week on the bike sometimes, so it suits me.

Lately I've been eating more and more often and even using a diy carb mix in one bottle on harder rides. I still mostly eat my homemade rice cakes, but now I'm eating half every 30 mins instead of going nearly an hour between feedings. It's been great for keeping the energy high in hour 7.

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For volumes that high you are right to be working in a Polarized model. I also tend to work in a "Block Periodization" where I work on a 3 week rotation.
Week 1: Intensity. 4 of 6 workouts are high intensity
Week 2: Volume. 1 of 6 workouts are high intensity, 5 are base. Main focus is number of hours
Week 3: Recovery. 5 rides all base.

Also, for those volumes it is very difficult on your body to run a large caloric deficit. It also becomes borderline impossible to replace enough calories when you're off the bike, so on-bike calories become important. I like to drink on the 0:30 and 1:00 and eat at 0:45 and :15's.

If performance is your goal, it's best to avoid falling behind, as you've recognized.
Sounds like things are going well for you, I hope there's a few things you can find useful.

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Originally Posted by Dee Hubbs

Fueling strategy question? I'm going to tackle the Full PRL ride on Saturday morning.
174 kms (108 miles) 2627 meters (8605 feet). Pacing at 2.0w/kg it should take me 6 hours.
I'm hydrating all day today to ensure I wake up Saturday hydrated. I'll eat a normal preride breakfast of Latte (with 12oz of milk) some Oatmeal with nuts and fruit and a yogurt.
Durning my ride I plan to drink a 16oz bottle per hour. I set a stop watch to beep every 10 minutes where I take a sip from my bottle of 2-3oz. I alternate between water and electrolytes every 10 minutes. So thats 6-7 bottles over the ride. Should I include caffeine in some of my electrolyte mixes? I use a a weak Gatorade mix or use nuun tablets and have caffeine options with the Nuun.
I just don't know what I should eat or how ofter? I know I have the luxury of eating real food because I'm in the house, but I also have plenty of "sport food" that I know my body likes. I have Stinger Waffles, Stinger Chews, Fig Newton Bars, and a Protien 20g bar. But I plan of having a rice protein meal for dinner tonight, and can have left overs during my ride on Saturday.

How often should I eat, and what should I eat to keep fueled thought this ride?

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Hey, super sorry I missed this before your ride, but congrats on getting it done. It sounds like it went well for you.

Riding at home is different from riding outside in that you have access to anything you need and you do not need to make compromises based on your ability to carry food / water.

In this instance, in all honesty, just shove down as much food as you can and what you feel like eating.

The days prior: Eating a high-carb diet for ~2-3 days prior can ensure your liver and muscles are full of glycogen (stored sugar). This starts you on your best foot.

Calories in- How much do you weigh / what is 2.0w/kg in absolutely terms? If you're 165lbs, and average metabolic ability, you're likely burning ~450 carbohydrate calories an hour. This is ~3,150kcals for the 7 hour ride. You likely have about 1,500kcals stored. This means you need to consume (3,150-1,500) 1,650 kcals over 7 hours. This is about 235 kcals/ hour. Relatively easy to consumer in the whole scheme of things.

Gels vs. real food: Gels can be useful later in the ride when you need energy quickly. It's also helpful to swish the gel or drink in your mouth before swallowing. This triggers digestion (releases enzymes to break down the sugars in your mouth) but more importantly signals that carbs are coming which often causes your metabolic system to ramp up a little sooner. Interestingly, if you're bonking but unable to stomach food, you can swish drinks / gels in your mouth and spit them out and still see a performance improvement.

However, I prefer real food as they tend to have a lower glycemic index, which means that they release energy over a longer period of time. This is better for the majority of a long steady ride. However, might not provide enough energy quickly enough for a hard climb later in the ride, which is when a gel could be useful.

Protein: Can be useful during longer rides, especially if under fueled, as it can help prevent muscle damage. However, I tend to find it upsets my stomach which leads me to the next point:

Foods work differently for different people. I, personally, need variety. After multiple hour I do not know what I'm going to want to eat. At low intensities I can eat most anything. At long, moderate intensities I tend to fuel mostly through high caloric drinks (Maurten, Skratch Super Fuel). and supplement with other things.

Hydration: Any chance you know how much weight you lost over the course of the ride? For a ride that long you should be looking at 3-4% weight loss for optimal performance. Any less and I'd fear you were drinking too much, any more and performance is likely suffering.

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Originally Posted by smmokan

Here's one for you: as someone who rides their bike quite a lot already, what kind of training or riding should I add to see the biggest gains? I don't lift weights at all, but I ride about 60-100 miles a week (all MTB) and do yoga a few times a week on average. My "normal" ride is usually around 15 miles with 3k+ feet of climbing, and it goes up to 30 miles w/ 5k feet in the summer and fall. I live in the Boulder area and typically ride FR stuff, but I travel a ton for work and ride all over the country.

Should I add weights or resistance training? Should I add more interval work? Should I do a longer ride each week to build stamina? I'm not looking to compete with some of the climbing freaks out here in Colorado, I guess I just want to bump my fitness up to the next level and feel like I can push it harder when I need/want to. I really hope you don't say to lift weights, because I absolutely hate it. :)

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1. If you have the time, weight lifting is always a good thing for general fitness (Testosterone levels, bone health, injury prevention, etc.) Done well it can be helpful for endurance performance as well. However, I would not replace riding time with weight lifting if you expect to improve riding fitness. Hard to be specific with lifting recommendations, but the 10-20rep range and movements that use multiple joints (e.g. squats over leg extensions). I can get deeper into this in the future.

2. FR mountain biking can be a bitch for training. The biggest thing I can say is that if fitness is your goal, then be sure that most days are designated easy and some days are designated hard. The FR is difficult because most of the climbs are too hard to be easy, which means you're gassed when it's time to go hard. This also means that I spend too much time riding dirt roads and the Lobo.

If you're trying to do it all on the trail, then I'd be sure that you have easier gearing (28/51) and that you're taking it casual on the climbs. If you can do that most days of the week, then go hog wild on the climbs your other days. I think that instead of intervals including rides where you intentionally ride the climbs hard (much harder than usual) would be a more fun way of going about it. If these are longer climbs,(longer than 20 minutes) then break them down so that you aren't pushing "kinda hard" for an hour. Back off on the easier sections so that you can go that much harder on the hard sections (E.g. Belcher, LHOHV up to DLR).

I knew a pro triathlete that could only do his long rides and runs baked. To each their own.

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Originally Posted by Full Trucker

smmokan's post pretty much captures exactly what I would want to know, and how much and what I ride is pretty damn similar to what he describes... just maybe slightly less volume. This thought above from climberevan kinda turned on a light bulb for me... dots are connecting on why I don't maybe see any appreciable progress in fitness year over year. Interested to hear what XtrPickels advises in this regard.

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I see way too many people riding just a little harder than they ought to. It's completely counter intuitive because the harder you work, the fitter you should get, right? It's also fun to go fast, so just go fast all the time.

I've hard more than one person ask how I can be so fit early in the season. Honestly, sometimes it's my best fitness of the year. This is probably solely because of my time on the trainer. Unless I'm Zwift racing or doing a workout, I am locked into base wattage with a custom workout. No matter what route I'm doing on Zwift, my watts are controlled.

As Climberevan said above, easy days should be easy. This is a 2-3 on a 1-10 scale. It's being able to speak a sentence or two without gasping. Frankly, it's kinda boring.

Hard days should be hard. Devastatingly hard. Most people don't really like to push deep. It's an acquired skill (and taste).

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Originally Posted by jamal

6-7" cuff is the right sock height.

I'm really liking having power and accurate hr when I'm riding the smart trainer and am trying to track down a power meter for the road bike now (stages for cannondale cranks). Although I probably don't really need one.

I have a tendency to just ride a lot, and that has done me alright but I've always known that I should be smarter about my training. Basically, make easy days easier and hard days harder instead of all that "in the middle stuff" that leaves you a little too fatigued to do a good hard workout.

I recently signed up for intervals.icu and it's pretty cool (and free). It tracks all your rides/workouts, estimates your ftp, freshness, etc. The thing I really like about it is how it breaks down your time in zones each week. It was kind of a surprise to see myself doing a pretty big week (like 14 hours in the winter), thinking I did some hard rides and races, and then, oops, I only spent a total of like 12 minutes above z5. You do need power and hr to take advantage of it though.

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HR monitors, power meters, etc. are tools and some people need them and some people don't.

At a minimum, I think anyone that wants to train should use a Heart Rate monitor. If someone only uses one device, I prefer this because it also incorporates the bodies response. HR zones are more similar across altitudes and fitness levels than power zones, etc. The downside is that it takes a touch of time, once you've started an effort, for the HR to raise into the appropriate zone.

If someone is interested in tracking their training, then a power meter can become more powerful. This is because the second by second recording give a much more accurate picture of the work that they have done. Power meters are also useful for predicting performance, energy expenditure etc.

I'm not familiar with Intervals.icu, but I'll check it out.

A good z5 session would have 20 to 60 minutes depending on your fitness. (2x20, 3x15 are pretty common).
z6 and you're looking at maybe 10 to 40 minutes depending on fitness ( 4x8 minutes, 3 to 5x5 minutes are pretty common).

If someone wants to track their training

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Originally Posted by Falcon3

I’d argue against the “junk miles” hypothesis. If anything, I think a lot of people do too much in the hard interval category, leading to anaerobic adaptation, overtraining, and stagnation.

Read up on aerobic threshold training (NOT lactate threshold) and the benefit of doing 90% of your training beneath that with the other 10% being targeted hard training and keeping that split until just weeks before an event (when you would shift to more specific training).

The book Training for the Uphill Athlete is geared towards skimo and ultra running but the basic physiology it talks about (which is backed up with tons of world-class experience and science)is the same whether running or biking.

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Those guys offer great advice. Fun fact: At one point, Steve asked me to write a chapter for an edition of Uphill Athlete, but I had some auto-immune related health issues that got in the way.

I fully agree on the periodized training model. Depending on who you like there are slight variations in what exactly the split should be (e.g. Seiler recommends 80/20) and a bit of disagreement about what exactly the upper limit of the lower level should be. (e.g. lactate at 1.5 vs. 2.0 mmol/L, etc). However, we're talking shades of gray.

You reminded me of something though: often time over-training is related to "Training Monotony". The worse thing that you can do, is to do the same thing every day.

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Originally Posted by bean

Block periodization maybe? You might have to cut back the intensity on most of your riding though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PYvAK4Ljb4

The best gainz per amount of time committed for you is probably going to be from picking up something heavy and making it go up and down a few times.

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Big fan of block periodization. I use it for most of the year for raise general fitness and then pop into a more traditional periodization to tailor to specific events. I'll try to watch the video to see if we implement it differently.

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Originally Posted by dan_pdx

It seems pretty clear to me that we need weight lifting and yoga as well as cardio if we want to have a shot at skiing/biking/hiking into our 70s and beyond. So why don't I do any lifting? :rolleyes2

I have also traditionally been in the "go ride your bike" school of training, but now that I'm older and bike commuting has gone away, definitely need a more focused approach. Should I basically be thinking about hard rides that include intervals and recover periods and base building rides in Zone 3, and get rid of the half-assed rides where I just go kind of hard for the whole ride?

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Without knowing exactly what zone system you're referring to, I'm going to assume that Zone 3 is actually a bit too hard. Given most systems you ought to be training in Zone 2 the most, then a mix of 4/5/6. If you follow Seiler's zone system, then it's Zone 1 mostly, and Zone 3 second (3 zone system).

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Originally Posted by sethschmautz

I'll echo some of what others have stated. I think I'm squarely in the camp that rides moderately hard all the time and therefore am not seeing significant gains. I'm intrigued by polarized training and the threshold training. Would love a real simple tutorial/target for dummies. I ride for fun and this includes progressing in my riding. I like to see improvement.

I have an HR/GPS watch that I ride with but no power meter. I like riding my mtb most but gravel has become a close second.

Overall goal is to go uphill faster. Knee injury make squats and lunges really painful and will probably accelerate the need for surgery so I'll look for other ways to get resistance training and be more disciplined to do that regularly.

Where should I start?

Seth

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I'll try to make this a training talk topic. It's important enough for a deeper dive than I can type.

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Originally Posted by carpathian

All gains in 'training' come from a balance of strategic increase of stress and adaptation (rest) over a period of time.

On the pro end of things, (Ironman, etc) these guys will build through a program over a 6 month period knowing that once you start to get to the pointy end of ability/endurance that time is limited before you burnout and start to see a decrease in function and will need to do a deep rest phase or suffer the consequences.

Its funny looking back in my 20's when I was just obsessively climbing mountains year round on no real program other than high volume and realizing now I was operating in constant state of over training. I was ignorant in thinking that constantly pushing through mental and physical fatigue would keep leading to gains.

On that note, defining 'gains' in the mountain realm can be tricky compared flat land running and all the associated calibration that comes with 5k, 10k, marathon times etc.

In the last 5 years I have been doing a fair bit of triathlon training and it is cool the way you can switch through the disciplines and work different muscle groups while accumulating 'stress' on the aerobic engine. It is crazy how good you feel to go for a run or bike after swimming because now you can breath freely. Or to go run after biking because you want to loosen legs up and maintain 'pop'. Or go bike after running to get away from the pounding...

In short to see improvement, ride longer on long rides and ride faster on fast rides while adhering to basic 80/20 rule .
(80 % zone2 HR and 20% zone 4-6). Have mandatory rest days, which is different than active recovery days.

Even if you are a dedicated cyclist, an active recovery might be going for a swim or a run which leads to last point of creating diversity in training to stave off over training and boredom .

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Your point about Stress + Recovery = Adaptation is spot on and often overlooked. It's not the riding that makes you fitter, it's the recovery from the riding.

One thing to keep in mind though is that 80/20 is typically attributed to Stephen Seiler and when he uses it he is referring to sessions per week. These is from the study of nordic skiers whom are doing 10-20 training sessions per week. He does also recommend this general plan to the amateur and recreational athlete, however that's basically 1 hard session per week and is likely not enough.

From a time perspective for an amateur athlete doing 6 sessions per week, a more likely split is 70% base, 30% Z4+ IF they are doing specific intensity workouts where the efforts make up 50+% of the workout time. (E.g. 10 minute warmup, 2x20min w/ 5 min recovery, 10 min cooldown = 25 min @ base and 40 min at Threshold).

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Originally Posted by rideit

Ok, so I’m a n00b to dedicated training. I do strength training/weight lifting three days a week for 1-1.5 hours. Should I use those three days as rest days, or do you do base miles/Zone 1 or 2 on those days as well?
Thanks.

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At least one day per week has to be a true rest day where you do no real "exercise".
Otherwise, feel free to double up. Order them based on which will effect the other the least. For general strength training, I'd say do it after your base ride. You can make solid arguments in the other direction as well.

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Originally Posted by tellybele

Once you feel and see the results of a good PT lifting plan you'll wonder why you didn't do it sooner. I haven't been to a proper gym since covid and have adapted decently with cords, a mat, a couple extra dumbbells and a place to hang. I can't get the lower back/glutes like I got from front squats but the wall and single leg dips help. The cycling body is mostly out of balance and even more if it's all you do. Joints are pretty important to continuing on with fun activities in a fun way as we age and lifting with proper technique will/can/should be good for them. Have fun and don't forget, the world can be your gym with creative thinking about exercises.

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Yep. Cycling is terrible for general fitness. You're literally locked into place and doing all your movement in one plane while being supported in 3 places.

Individual assessments are key to this, so I'll agree but say that it's outside my jurisdiction for this.

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Originally Posted by EWG

Ok, I can't take it anymore. Pickles can come and give you the bible, but in the meantime:

Generally, people have easy days that are too hard and hard days that are too easy. First, figure out if you have a good base of fitness - ie, is your aerobic threshold in a good place. If not, you need lots of long slow easy distance to give yourself a base. LSD. Very common need and focus this time of year. Once you have a good base then you can start to push the upper limit.

Your easy days should be really easy. Remember that you only get stronger when you recover, not when you ride. Lots of sleep, avoid stress, easy days VERY easy, so that you can heal up. Keep in mind that mental stress is just as bad as physical stress in terms of retarding progress. Then, when you work, you work VERY hard.

Again, there's obviously way way more to this story, but if you want the biggest thing that amateur cyclists do wrong, that's it. Break your body down, then let it build up. If you don't let it build back up, then breaking it down serves zero purpose.

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I agree on all points. Sorry for being late to the party.

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Originally Posted by climberevan

EWG nails the point there.

I'll hold off on writing a big treatise, but I have had a thought the past few days that is relevant.

It's really hard to control one's effort on a MTB. I went out for a longer ride today and was shooting for a Z2 effort. The terrain, however, had other ideas. I was trying to limit the effort but still ended up with 33 minutes over Z2 in a 5 hour ride. (Bootleg, outside of Vegas, is pretty great, BTW.) Road riding is really a much better training tool....

I listened to this episode of the TR podcast on the ride today. Usually they just blather on, but this one is pretty focused, and might offer some useful info to some. I don't like that they mostly focus on sweet spot training, but I will admit that it is probably pretty good if one has less than 10hrs a week or so to train. If you can spend 15+hrs, you'll burn out with a lot of SS, and will be better served by a Polarized plan.

https://pca.st/episode/26ede37b-5c76...f-0c747c225bea

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This is really the crux of the situation for mountain bikers / people that live in hilly terrain.

Here on the Front Range, we're fortunate in general because East is Flat and West is not. Unfortunately West is where all the good mountain biking is.

Like I mentioned in my response to Smmokan: there are ways to try to stay in an easy zone while mountain biking; namely gearing and conscious effort, but sometimes it's just too steep and you can't do it.

Here you have a choice; you can either "train" or you can "have fun". Training means riding somewhere else. Having fun means forgetting that and going with the flow. I, personally, tend to focus on "training" 80% of the time, but 20% of the time I don't pay attention to the plan because the dirt, the route, or the crew is just too good. Usually I can rearrange my week to minimize the impact, sometimes I can't.

Everyone has their ratio and I'll never fault anyone for their choice. But, this is often a "can't have your cake and eat it too" situation.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian

Thanks for starting this OP.

I've gone into the deep end with a coach the last 3 months leading up to Enduro race season. Structured rides on TrainingPeaks 3 days a week and 2 days a week in the gym with a small group of other MTB racers.

I had a good base to start, so we got into intervals pretty quickly.....now entering back into rest/LSD zone on the bike to allow some recovery before my first race on May 2nd.

The idea behind weight training is that bigger engine = more power AND a stronger body will help you avoid injury when you crash. Look at all the pro MTB guys in Enduro and DH. They are animals. Richie Rude could play in the fucking NFL.

In the gym we are doing a good bit of muscle confusion type stuff. Not just pushing big weight, but a ton of very interesting stuff using the whole gym. Squats, rows, every variation of push ups, the Quantum machine, etc etc. Lots of focus on core, shoulders, back, chest, explosive leg stuff.

I am getting bigger and my heart rate has really adapted from interval training. I can go 500-900+ watts in a sprint and then my heart rate will drop right down within a few seconds. It's amazing.

I will say this: Ride outside all you want, but it's VERY hard to do correct zone training the same way an indoor smart trainer in ERG mode can. An indoor trainer can really lock you into a zone and that's where the magic happens. Did an outdoor Z2 ride today on the gravel bike and it's damn near impossible to stay in a zone unless you live in Nebraska or something and have 20 miles of dead flat road to work with.

If you are serious do a VO2 max test because you can't properly train without the information gleaned from that test. Your HR zones are not what the little online calculator tells you they are.

My biggest issue: Nutrition. I am eating very clean, but I can stuff myself after a day of training and then by midnight I feel like my stomach is a black hole. I almost got up to cook breakfast at 3am today. I just cannot get enough food in most days.

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A few things to unpack in here.

1. A plan is almost always a good thing. Beyond the training, the sense of purpose and goal-driven attitude can be extremely motivating. I'm glad you've found something that is working. Your questions a bit back were part of the inspiration for this.

2. You're in a touch place for training. Bozeman can have descent flat roads, but the mountains are tough.

3. I fully agree on the trainer being a great tool for controlling workload. Once you begin to to know the feelings associated, I also think that you can take those learnings outside and have a higher success rate.

4. For Enduro, Power is especially important. Power being the application of force over time. It's what makes sprinters fast, and Enduro races get up to speed quickly. A large component of power is strength.

5. Testing is great. I've given more than I can count and have done many on myself. With that said, I do think the tester is very important. Everyone should do some sniffing around before engaging in a physiology test.

6. Eating: Are you gaining unwanted weight? Trying to lose? Stay the same? Let that be your guide. If you're hungry, eat. If you're hungry and trying to lose weight, eat more protein. If you're hungry and your legs feel dead, eat more carbs.

I use an app called "Lose It" most days of the month and have for quite a while. It's similar to Myfitnesspal and other calorie trackers. I weigh basically everything. It's a pain, but it's been helpful. I tend to both over-eat or under-eat. I eat too much when I'm not exercising and I eat too little when I am. If anything it helps me eat MORE which has a direct impact on how well I ride and how good I feel. During Volume weeks I set it for 2 lbs of weight loss, During Intensity weeks, 1 lbs of weight loss and during Recovery weeks NO weight loss.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian

You are probably onto something.

If I remember to do a high carb recovery drink after a workout or ride I feel WAY better. On longer efforts I probably need to force myself to eat. That's become tougher for me.

I used to be constantly craving blocks/gels. Now I don't really get as hungry while riding which is weird.

What do you guys eat while on the bike? There are so many choices out there and I have no idea what is best.

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I agree with Evan in that you're likely not taking on enough calories.
As I mentioned before, Enduro is a Power / Power-endurance sport. You need to be well-fed to achieve the intensities that will make a difference for your riding. Being chronically under-fed will not help.

There is the potential the carb-depleted training can increase metabolic efficiency. For some riding disciplines this is a useful benefit, but it's a relatively small effect and it's risky to implement. Given what you are trying to achieve, carbs are your friend, especially with all the high intensity work (that includes strength) that you are / should be doing.

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Originally Posted by radam

Maybe this has already been asked, but how does weight lifting fit into a polarized, cycling-focused training plan? Also, most of my workout windows are short, an hour or less.

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Block Periodization could work well for you if your time is limited. For a long while I was working at the hospital as well as teaching anatomy at the community college with twins and a competitive running wife at home. Being time-constrained is hard, but you can still have decent fitness.

Week 1: Intensity rides 4 of 6 rides (2 rides recovery / base). These can all be in the 45 minute to 1 hour range.
Week 2: Base. Try to dedicate this week to longer rides or doubles. whichever you can fit into your schedule.
Week 3: Recovery. 5 rides, all easy. Can be in the 45 minute to 1 hour range.

Frankly, I still follow a similar plan most of the time. As my free time has increased, all I've really done is increase the volume of my volume weeks.

Regarding weight training: Are you limited on time AND sessions? If you can fit in additional sessions of weight training then go for it. If you need to replace riding, and riding fitness is your primary objective, I'd say don't worry about weight training.

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Originally Posted by Falcon3

I'm going to disagree a bit with the carbs statements above.

Doing too much Z3 and carb-fueled training may lead your body to abandon its aerobic metabolism mechanisms in favor of glycolytic fueling. You potentially limit your power output to whatever your body can digest in carbs and it won't be pulling from fat stores (which are essentially unlimited in your body- 100k+ calories even in very lean athletes).

Obviously this isn't how everyone will experience things, but looking at the carb/fat metabolism graphs at certain heartrates and threshholds for carb vs fat athletes is pretty telling.

Here's a great story about Adrian Ballinger and his path from carb-fueled workouts and climbing trips to fat-fueled.
https://www.uphillathlete.com/adrian...erestnofilter/

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I agree that that constant barrage of higher intensity work and carbohydrate consumption will cause someone to be carbohydrate dependent during endurance exercise. However, there is a lot of nuance and considerations.

1. I do not believe anyone is advocating Zone 3 work.
2. First ask "what are the goals of the athlete", Then ask "what is getting in their way"? It's only then do we know if they are metabolically appropriate for the task or if they need adaptation. Example given: I don't care if a Track sprinter can oxidize fat as a fuel. It has no bearing on their performance and is likely correlated negatively.
3. The vast majority of performances that people in this thread are interested in involve intensities that push them above threshold. The vast majority of mountaineers are engaging in intensities below threshold. These athletes need to be treated in vastly different manners.
4. Looking only at his test, I will guarantee that during Adrian's second test he was carbohydrate depleted. Most of the gains would be reversed the moment he took on more carbohydrate. I've performed hundreds, if not thousands of these; including some for Scott and Steve's athletes.
5. I'm very moderate in my carb-depleted recommendations. Most are either completely for or against, but I can see where it is useful and where it is not. Without a doubt Carb-depletion increases your fat oxidation and decreases your carb oxidation. It decreases HLA in the blood. It also, without a doubt, decreases the maximal work that someone can achieve. Additionally, considering it takes more oxygen per calorie to oxidize fat than it does carbohydrate, it's actually less efficient. For some athletes one side of that spectrum is more desirable than the other and as such one strategy is more desirable as well.

Louise Burke and her collaborators have done an incredible amount of research into Ketogenic / carb depletion and the effect on Biochem, substrate availability, performance, etc.

Easy days are indeed hard when you mountain bike.
Unless you have an e mountain bike

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I wasn't joking.

I'm in france right now and most mountain bikers don't train in the road for easy days.
Instead they get on an e bike and train at an easy pace, but still work on technical skills, both up and down.

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Too many fucking words, Jesus Christ, y’all are Chris Froome now?
Shut up and ride your bikes.

Alright I’ll hop in with a few questions:

I have good base fitness and I’m ‘quick’ but not fast. I did the Colorado trail last summer and two years ago did the High Cascades 100 on a Pivot Switchblade in a 9 hours.

I’m doing a few 100 mile MTB races this summer and I’m trying to work through how to make progress. I have an XC bike that’s 7-8lbs lighter, which seems like a good step.

My precious training has just been ‘climb a lot’ and focusing on getting 15,000-20,000 feet of vert per week. Then doing some intervals, picking a steep 12+ degree grade and doing maximum efforts in a high gear for 60 seconds then coasting back to start and repeating.

Is buying a heart rate monitor a good way of starting to train more with zones? Is it worth it to just try and track down a power meter and going the full step?

Im not quite ready for a trainer... I know they’re effective but I think that would make me a little miserable right now. I would have to set it up in my office... and I work from home already so that’s to much time inside in the same space.

Thank you for the responses XtraPickels.

The only time I feel really really satiated is after breakfast. 3-4 eggs cooked in Coco oil, was doing 3-4 pieces of bacon daily but too much bad fat I think (?) so I switched to turkey sausage links or patties. Sometimes elk breakfast sausage (but I am getting burned out cause I had way too much of it with the elk I shot last year). GF oatmeal with grassfed butter and a little honey. Coffee with unsweetened coconut creamer.

I realize I need lots of carbs especially on hard workout days, ride days, race days.......but I want a six pack. Total vanity. We touched on this before in another thread I think. Is it as simple as more protein and even more workout? My legs, arms, shoulders are pretty defined and getting bigger. I can feel my abs getting stronger with core workouts........just damn 1" of fat layer on top. It's like the only fatty part of my body.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian

Thank you for the responses XtraPickels.

The only time I feel really really satiated is after breakfast. 3-4 eggs cooked in Coco oil, was doing 3-4 pieces of bacon daily but too much bad fat I think (?) so I switched to turkey sausage links or patties. Sometimes elk breakfast sausage (but I am getting burned out cause I had way too much of it with the elk I shot last year). GF oatmeal with grassfed butter and a little honey. Coffee with unsweetened coconut creamer.

I realize I need lots of carbs especially on hard workout days, ride days, race days.......but I want a six pack. Total vanity. We touched on this before in another thread I think. Is it as simple as more protein and even more workout? .

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Indeed, thanks XtraPickels for the many detailed responses!

It's really amazing how powerful the anti-carb marketing can be. I regularly see ads on YouTube claiming that even cardio is bad. I guess people keep wanting a silver bullet. As LA once said "What am I on? I'm on my bike, 6 hours a day." (Yes, I know he was also on drugs, but the point is sound.)

You're not helping your cause with those high fat/protein low carb breakfasts. The choice you frame between having a six pack and eating carbs is just incorrect. The simple fact is that if you're doing hours of endurance exercise daily, carbs will be your main fuel. You need to fuel up earlier in the day and eat a shitload of vegetables with some protein later. If you're eating a decent, mostly plant based diet, you will get enough protein.

I also disagree with the whole fat adaptation thing for most athletes. As Pickels said, it might be good for really extreme distance stuff where intensity is really low, but no one here has even mentioned an interest in that. Your body wants carbs to fuel its muscles, so why not give them to it?

Lastly, WG, how much alcohol are you drinking? If it's more than 1 beer a day, cutting that down will help a lot in your quest to get ripped.

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Originally Posted by climberevan

Indeed, thanks XtraPickels for the many details responses!

It's really amazing how powerful the anti-carb marketing can be. I regularly see ads on YouTube claiming that even cardio is bad. I guess people keep wanting a silver bullet. As LA once said "What am I on? I'm on my bike, 6 hours a day." (Yes, I know he was also on drugs, but the point is sound.)

You're not helping your cause with those high fat/protein low carb breakfasts. The choice you frame between having a six pack and eating carbs is just incorrect. The simple fact is that if you're doing hours of endurance exercise daily, carbs will be your main fuel. You need to fuel up earlier in the day and eat a shitload of vegetables with some protein later. If you're eating a decent, mostly plant based diet, you will get enough protein.

I also disagree with the whole fat adaptation thing for most athletes. As Pickels said, it might be good for really extreme distance stuff where intensity is really low, but no one here has even mentioned an interest in that. Your body wants carbs to fuel its muscles, so why not give them to it?

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So should I just be eating carbs for breakfast? Oatmeal and fruits? How is protein in the AM a bad thing.....because my body spends several hours trying to digest it?

When I did my V02 max 3 months ago the coach noted that my body basically starts burning fat right away during any effort and I only tapped into carbs when I was getting Z4.

I have a question for XtraPickels.

I'm my youth I did a pretty traditional annual periodization based on a 4 week cycle. I seemed like the gold standard. I took a huge break from truly structured training, but not from riding/running/ski touring.

Now that I'm 45 I wonder about the 3 week cycle. You seem to be a fan. I guess my hesitation is that it just seems like a lot of rest weeks. I'm generally pretty bad at resting, though I do always manage to back off before really getting overtrained.

Do you think I'd benefit from the 3-week cycle going forward into more of a build phase? My goals are not racing (I have no fantasies about being able to compete with the young-uns), but rather being able to go faster on big rides so that I can go even bigger, hence the volume.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian

I realize I need lots of carbs especially on hard workout days, ride days, race days.......but I want a six pack. Total vanity. We touched on this before in another thread I think. Is it as simple as more protein and even more workout? My legs, arms, shoulders are pretty defined and getting bigger. I can feel my abs getting stronger with core workouts........just damn 1" of fat layer on top. It's like the only fatty part of my body.

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Low-carb is super useful for losing fat or maintaining at relatively low body fat level, but to get super lean look to how bodybuilders do it - high protein, moderate carb, low fat. The vast majority of stored body fat is ingested, de novo lipogenesis for most people requires eating >400g of carbs per day on top of being sedentary. I'm generally an advocate of low-carb diets for most people but have been increasingly adding in carbs especially around training, and try to avoid added fat just for the sake of adding fat.

About the bacon, the omega-6 fats in most pork is the problem, and poultry has a similar fatty acid profile but the advantage is that it's often leaner. Sausage type stuff will probably not be any leaner so there may or may not be the health advantage you're looking for.

Protein all day every day. Carbs around training. If you aren't training and eating low-carb and want to have some carbs, having them closer to bedtime can help with evening hunger and ease of sleep.

See, I really just don't understand this stuff. I have to cut the bad fats in the meats and go leaner while having enough carbs for fuel?