Is it just me, or are we seeing more inbound avalanches?

No one can say for sure how it translates to post control slides inbounds, but the snowpack in California has absolutely changed and become less stable / reliable in recent years due to changes in climate / weather. A few years ago we had three separate buried hoar layers in the span of a month, which was more than the previous decade combined or something like that. It was no longer a maritime snowpack and more like Colorado. And PWL's have happened several more times since then when it used to be a rare occurrence. Not that it was ever smart policy for backcountry travel, but the concept of the "Tahoe 24 or 48" is officially over, it seems.

Now, in the case of the slide at Alpine yesterday that wasn't a buried hoar layer but a shitty rain crust. That has always happened in Tahoe although it's probably a safe bet that the frequency of those events has increased in recent years, especially at higher elevations (like at a ski resort). A patroller was killed during control work at Alpine back in 2012 (?) and it was because a ridgeline ripped bigger and higher than they'd ever seen before so his island of safety as per standard procedure was exposed. Possibly an outlier, or possibly a sign of things changing... hard to say.

Social media makes it a lot harder for resorts to keep information about inbounds slides under wraps, which is a major contributing factor, IMHO. But I also believe that there is more pressure to(and in turn, more resorts caving to the pressure) to open terrain ASAP instead of giving things a couple of days, and likely a couple rounds of control routes being run through it before they drop the rope. The culture of instant gratification reaps what it sows.

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Originally Posted by old goat

To Bunion and anyone else who might be knowledgeable--is there nationwide discussion and research on in bounds avalanche control, do resorts talk to each other about it, or is practice primarily determined by each area's particular experience?

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There is a lot of cross pollination through ski patrol exchanges and regional avalanche workshops. The ski areas located near me get together every fall (Big Sky, BB, Y/C & usually Red Lodge, Disco and Teton Pass) for a day of continuing education and discussions. There is the NAF National Avalanche Foundation http://www.avalancheschool.org/ that attempts to bring some standardized training to all ski areas that engage in avalanche mitigation. There are Professional seminars available and the more recent split between Rec and Pro education also attempts to bring areas together.

After the explosives accident at Big Sky in 96 the NSAA got a board together composed of a lot of very experienced patrollers to formulate an explosives handling SOP.

With all that said, most ski area programs are a product of their in house experiences.

In my experiences at 5 different Class-A areas I saw relatively little pressure from management above the patrol to "get terrain open". I did see it once in 86 at Park City during a bad el Nino cycle when the SS Dir. held his ground and kept Thaynes Canyon closed for 3 days during a huge precip. event. In the end the skies cleared, he did a route on the ridge line between Thaynes and White Pine and took out the power line that ran up the canyon. He made the right call.

Most pressure to "Get Terrain Open" is internal. Patrols are geared toward that goal and that is how they are able to justify their budgets and reason for being. I have noticed this year that the area I recreational ski at is being a lot more conservative about terrain openings. They have had a lot of deep slab activity on a just above the ground layer of ice from rain events in late October/early November and the overall snow pack structure is just plain shitty. I appreciate their approach.

What makes it difficult for the patrols is that it is much safer to get on new snow ASAP, get the terrain open and skied than it is to sit on it an let it settle etc. It isn't about "instant gratification", no matter what some experts may think.

Here's an article on the topic of In-bounds avalanches that we had in The Avalanche Review 10 years ago:Attachment 311315Attachment 311316Attachment 311317

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Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

There is a lot of cross pollination through ski patrol exchanges and regional avalanche workshops. The ski areas located near me get together every fall (Big Sky, BB, Y/C & usually Red Lodge, Disco and Teton Pass) for a day of continuing education and discussions. There is the NAF National Avalanche Foundation http://www.avalancheschool.org/ that attempts to bring some standardized training to all ski areas that engage in avalanche mitigation. There are Professional seminars available and the more recent split between Rec and Pro education also attempts to bring areas together.

After the explosives accident at Big Sky in 96 the NSAA got a board together composed of a lot of very experienced patrollers to formulate an explosives handling SOP.

With all that said, most ski area programs are a product of their in house experiences.

In my experiences at 5 different Class-A areas I saw relatively little pressure from management above the patrol to "get terrain open". I did see it once in 86 at Park City during a bad el Nino cycle when the SS Dir. held his ground and kept Thaynes Canyon closed for 3 days during a huge precip. event. In the end the skies cleared, he did a route on the ridge line between Thaynes and White Pine and took out the power line that ran up the canyon. He made the right call.

Most pressure to "Get Terrain Open" is internal. Patrols are geared toward that goal and that is how they are able to justify their budgets and reason for being. I have noticed this year that the area I recreational ski at is being a lot more conservative about terrain openings. They have had a lot of deep slab activity on a just above the ground layer of ice from rain events in late October/early November and the overall snow pack structure is just plain shitty. I appreciate their approach.

What makes it difficult for the patrols is that it is much safer to get on new snow ASAP, get the terrain open and skied than it is to sit on it an let it settle etc. It isn't about "instant gratification", no matter what some experts may think.

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Thanks for the post.
My kids and I all bought Erika Pankow Scholarship Foundation Big Sky T shirts when we were there. Sad story. (Aren't they all.)

There was an article in Powder years ago (well after the 93 slide) about snow safety at Alta and Alpine (the picture of patrollers on top of Beaver with an enormous cornice is a classic). There is a scene described when the mountain manager comes into the patrol shack, looks at the list of shots planned for the morning and tells the patrol director that it was too much--as in spending too much on explosives.. I'm something like that is rare, and maybe they were pulling the reporter's leg.

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Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

What makes it difficult for the patrols is that it is much safer to get on new snow ASAP, get the terrain open and skied than it is to sit on it an let it settle etc. It isn't about "instant gratification", no matter what some experts may think.

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Really interesting, hadn't thought about that.

I was skiing at Squaw on a storm day when they were having trouble getting KT controlled. The finally decided not to open it because it had taken too long since they bombed their first routes without skiers on them. They explained that once they get skiers on a slope that keeps the slope stable even if the snow keeps coming down. (Not always--the guy who was killed near the top of Poulsen's a few years ago was skiing there near the end of a storm day and a lot of people had skied that slope all day.)

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Originally Posted by old goat

They explained that once they get skiers on a slope that keeps the slope stable even if the snow keeps coming down.)

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During storms in progress skier traffic can keep new snow hazards from forming but that’s not necessarily the case with persistent instabilities deeper in the snowpack.


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Originally Posted by regct

During storms in progress skier traffic can keep new snow hazards from forming but that’s not necessarily the case with persistent instabilities deeper in the snowpack.


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And by getting terrain open early in the season and/or boot/ski packing, persistant instabilities can be mitigated or prevented.

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Originally Posted by Benny Profane

I meant the toothless prick Brit. Bunion is American, he has benefitted from fluoridation and proper dental care most of his life.

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Where's your in desperate need of 3rd world dental surgery tourism research thread when we need it? Clown.

Skiing was fun today.

You clean the fridge? Shave your legs? Read up on avalanches in latest edition of conde nast travel magazine?



https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...9b8fac402a.jpg

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Originally Posted by snowaddict91

And by getting terrain open early in the season and/or boot/ski packing, persistent instabilities may be mitigated or prevented.

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FIFY

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Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

FIFY

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Ha! You want an editing job?

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Conditions and affects of having terrain open or closed is extremely situational imho and can't be completely clear with white and black sort of explanations discussed on an internet forum.

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

Where's your in desperate need of 3rd world dental surgery tourism research thread when we need it? Clown.

Skiing was fun today.

You clean the fridge? Shave your legs? Read up on avalanches in latest edition of conde nast travel magazine?



https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...9b8fac402a.jpg

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Free zingers

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

Where's your in desperate need of 3rd world dental surgery tourism research thread when we need it? Clown.

Skiing was fun today.

You clean the fridge? Shave your legs? Read up on avalanches in latest edition of conde nast travel magazine?



https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...9b8fac402a.jpg

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What's your fucking need to be so fucking witty and snarky and trying to impress with your core holier than thou BC skiing when others are talking. When's the last time you interrupted your shitflow of what you think is funny snark to actually carry on a decent conversation here?

I didn't ski today. I don't have a shit job that makes me ski on the worst day of the week to ski. Did you stand in some half hour lift line at Crystal with that pack on, feeling oh so superior to the peasents all around you? You suck. Fuck you and your toothless mom, although I like that about her.

Lol

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Originally Posted by Benny Profane

with that pack on.

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believe that's a vest....

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Originally Posted by Benny Profane

Fuck you and your toothless mom, although I like that about her.

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Pure gold. LMFAO

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Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

FIFY

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I never was good in English class.

Me either, if HMS hired me to edit I would be fired almost immediately for incorrect or over use of commas.

This will get you straightened out.
https://www.amazon.com/Between-You-M...sr=1-1-catcorr

JFC, Bunny, yeah, I think an experienced backcountry skier might have something to add re snow science. More than you. Take a lap.

Well, it seemed to be a solid discussion until cuntface Brit had to attempt humor. I just posted the question, genius.

I see you're not a fan of British humor.

Benny holds a grudge and it's a grudge for life.
Just like danko Jones.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PMtmmhnbSls

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Originally Posted by Benny Profane

Well, it seemed to be a solid discussion until cuntface benny had to appear.

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This happens a lot, what comes around, goes around.

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Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn

I see you're not a fan of British humor.

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I am when it's funny.

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Originally Posted by snowaddict91

Yup. There was a decent sized slide at Snowbird a couple years ago right under a lift. I had been out of town for a few days and happened to be riding the chair with a patroller. Said something about it and he informed me that it was open at the time and they had to run probe lines. My wife and I have both kicked off small slides in the same general part of the mountain. Close calls happen a lot more than most of us think.

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I had one run right past me at Solitude in 06ish.

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Originally Posted by Benny Profane

What's your fucking need to be so fucking witty and snarky and trying to impress with your core holier than thou BC skiing when others are talking. When's the last time you interrupted your shitflow of what you think is funny snark to actually carry on a decent conversation here?

I didn't ski today. I don't have a shit job that makes me ski on the worst day of the week to ski. Did you stand in some half hour lift line at Crystal with that pack on, feeling oh so superior to the peasents all around you? You suck. Fuck you and your toothless mom, although I like that about her.

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You're unprepared butthurtness is showing thru your powderskirt bro

Btw: wrong forum jong!

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Originally Posted by MiCol

believe that's a vest....

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It's a pack.

I believe Norse has the vest they made?

Pity they couldn't keep their business going as the big guys entered the market. WARY were nice folks.

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

It's a pack.

I believe Norse has the vest they made?

Pity they couldn't keep their business going as the big guys entered the market. WARY were nice folks.

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ive got one of the vests...looks similar from that angle....love that thing for certain missions...yep, wish they were still around..still have my original abs pack for different objectives...vest better for inbounds related stuff...and pure sled trips

Hey douchebag (benny) get over here. Bring your shitty base Honda.

Speaking as someone who has met both Benny and PNWbrit, I can confidently state that both are real nice guys who would get along fine IRL. I have no idea why the Internet fucks things up.


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Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

What makes it difficult for the patrols is that it is much safer to get on new snow ASAP, get the terrain open and skied than it is to sit on it an let it settle etc. It isn't about "instant gratification", no matter what some experts may think.

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Can you explain that a bit further? Like, better to get skier compaction going as soon as possible?

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Originally Posted by Harry

Speaking as someone who has met both Benny and PNWbrit, I can confidently state that both are real nice guys who would get along fine IRL. I have no idea why the Internet fucks things up.


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Benny plays himself as a superior cunt in the ECRC and pretty much unwelcome to hang with us. Please convince him to move to your town soon.

I wish, but Harry bought at the right time.

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Originally Posted by Benny Profane

I wish, but Harry bought at the right time.

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I'm happy to start a Go-Fund-Me...


except I like Harry too much to do that to him.

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Originally Posted by BCtransplant

Can you explain that a bit further? Like, better to get skier compaction going as soon as possible?

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Moguls from the dirt up.
Let no snowflake be undisturbed.
If the above two fail and one has facets on the ground that skiers cannot impact, then one is deservedly slow in openings after large loads.

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Originally Posted by BCtransplant

Can you explain that a bit further? Like, better to get skier compaction going as soon as possible?

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^^^ This is one version.

I got to where I pictured the avalanche paths I was responsible for as being structures to be built over the span of a winter and that they would have weaker and stronger layers of structure as the snow accumulates.

Every new layer that was deposited and then subsequently either skied in or slid off contributed to that structure.

That is the major difference between Back Country forecasting and Ski Area forecasting. In a ski area setting you are dealing with a set number of starting zones and have the advantages of skiers and explosives to artificially influence the structure you are trying to build. It is a matter of opening and skiing in new snow once you have a safe enough base layer to build upon.