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Also, to be fair, the bitching about Squaw thread was after the KSL takeover when they fired a bunch of long time lift ops and were also clearly putting lifts on money hold at times that had zero to do with patrol making any kind of safety decision. Not the best example IMO.
Thank you OG. This is the the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by old goat
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Corporate run ski areas are not co-ops, managed on a day to day level by their customers.
If I had that much control by just bitching, I'd get that howitzer back on gunner's knob, have "Woohoo Wednesdays" and invite you all to call your targets.
I guess it'll have to wait though. Apparently the whole resort got wiped out.
https://nypost.com/2020/01/17/avalan...-1-skier-dead/
Always blaming the corporation is a heuristic trap.
Ski companies do have an incentive to minimize the risks of skiing; that's why it's impossible to get good statistics on skiing injuries. In this case SVAM came out with a pretty comprehensive press release very quickly.
Riding up a lift on a midweek powder morning when stuff is closed "They're saving it for the tourists this weekend".
Riding up a lift on a weekend powder morning when stuff is closed "They're saving it for the locals."
Hard to understand that the same corporation that gets terrain open too quickly also puts lifts on money hold. Hard to fit both ideas into the same story.
Haha.....jesus christ.
Management regarding how alpine opens on a snow day has changed over the years. I used to work there for crying out loud. If I wasn't hiking something, I was on that hill, long after I got another job too. Skiing on mountains regardless of how you got there ultimately falls on the user to make decisions. But there are certain ways that a ski area can mitigate likelihood. And they used to do a better job of it.
If you're unable to recognize that or just don't know it because you were skiing at squaw, that's fine. Other than having lots of friends that work and regularly ski there, I don't have a dog in this fight anymore. But just saying 'whelp, we bitched a lot so what do you expect this company wholly in charge of their operations to do?' is nonsense. We generally have one of the safer snowfalls in in north america. Yet this happens a little much between those two valleys.
I understand your viewpoint.
The history of both Squaw and AM is rife with avalanches, some expected others not so much.
Patrols do their best with the tools they have available and usually fall into the trap of doing what has always worked before until it doesn't.
I've noticed that the last couple of years Alpine has been getting open faster than Squaw. I was surprised yesterday that everything was open at 9 except for a little bombing in the direction of Gentian. Hard to blame KSL or Alterra when Squaw and Alpine have different experiences.Quote:
Originally Posted by kidwoo
The last drought year we had a March miracle--Beaver and Estelle filled in nicely but never opened because patrol never thought they were safe, even many days after the last storm. Same corporation.
I'm not saying that there's not pressure on patrol to get stuff open, just that I don't the pressure comes from the corporation. It's hard for me to come up with a reason why it would. The more patrollers they call in early to do snow safety before 9 the more expensive it is. Like you said if it took a couple days to get full open they would still sell more passes than they can handle. If there's been any change in pressure to open over the last few decades it's because of the increased emphasis on free skiing and along with that fat skis. When I started skiing racers were mainstream heroes, skiing was on mainstream broadcast television (the only tv there was). Powder skiing was a sport about as exotic as wing suit skiing is today.
(I wonder if the Gazex have made a difference, especially if they let AM patrol finish controlling the road faster, which means more patrollers available to do the resort.)
Re Bunion's remark--there's a chute at Alpine, very near to yesterday's slide called "Chute That Seldom Slide". But sometimes it does.
I think glademaster and kidwoo should hook up. They seem like a match made in heaven.
The pressure from the public is real. People get really antsy and aggro when butts aren’t loading at 9 because of mitigation. Sometimes patrol will open something that seems sketchy and sometimes they’ll wait. Most of the time everything is fine post mitigation but sometimes something bad happens.
OG-
For quite a few decades- The Chute that Seldom Slides, was called - The Chute that Never Slides, until one day it, well you know -slid.
Let's try to stop the circular firing squad of finger pointing, let these guys do their jobs and wait for the report on the incident. The Alpine AC program has been and is still top notch and highly regarded. There has been no change in policy or procedures that I am aware of, the guys keeping records and calling the shots probably have over 25 years each in "the biz" and definitely do not cut corners.
MTT- your photo is a good example of the terrain in the area. The slide area is on the map as "Subway Cirque" and is more of a face than a chute. It's immediately below the rock face lookers right of Promised Land. It had 2 shot holes in it yesterday morning.
I don’t buy the corporate pressure angle - we’ve seen plenty of “take it or leave it” behavior from them specifically in recent years, especially during the Andy Wirth era. I think patrol just wants to make everyone happy and get stuff open as soon as they can. They’re hardcore skiers, they get it. Unfortunately sometimes shit happens and it’s really sad when it does.
And as per oldgoat’s comment about tourists vs locals and saving snow or not, it’s spot on and I hate when people say that shit. Someone said it to me on the lift at Alpine last Tuesday (I guess they’re saving the top for MLK weekend) and I rolled my eyes because I had zero expectations for patrol to open Summit with the fresh snow and how windy it was (and for the record, we were all skiing 5-12 inches of powder on the same rain crust layer that failed less than 70 hours later). Then just before 1pm they popped Summit and we were very surprised and thankful.
FWIW, they didn’t open Scott chair that day but pretty sure that was due to wind.
For the most part, I don't question anything that the patrol at Alpine does. I'd say if anything they are on the more conservative side, but obviously if there is any doubt whatsoever it's better to keep stuff closed. The only thing I have ever questioned is how Beaver and Estelle could be closed because of avalanche concerns, yet low Beaver traverse can be open, allowing people to ski right under and across many avalanche paths. Twice I've set off slides in bounds that could have seriously injured someone had they been directly below (years ago), but I know that avalanche control (or mitigation) is an inexact science. There is no way that they can get to every single little pocket that could possibly avalanche, and sometime, such as yesterday, things get bombed (sometimes more than once) and still don't move.
I was at Alpine yesterday and was surprised to see relatively little slide activity from AC in the morning. I was in the area of the avalanche at around the time it happened, and was kicking off little slabs. It just felt like the snow was not adhering to the ice at all, and I was definitely mindful of the possibility of getting flushed over a cliff or into some trees or rocks. But it was controlled and people were all over it for a while before those guys hit just the wrong spot, and got pushed into the wrong area. So it does seem like a fluke thing, I'm sure patrollers are feeling awful about it, but not sure what they could have done different.
I've wondered the same thing about Low Beaver. Although sometimes High Beaver and beyond are closed not for avalanche risk but because the hike is too icy. I've seen patrol back there chopping a path with axes. Most of the time the closure is for snow safety.Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmm...pow!
The slide was not in Subway Cirque and I'm not sure MTT's photo is correct. The slide was in Crag Chute (on the patrol map), which is also called Townsends by patrol. Crag Chute has more of a terrain trap at he bottom with both a rock band and a lot more trees that demand a left turn on exiting the chute (unless there is a big snow year to cover the rock band).Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfy
That chute gets bombed regularly. I've skied around multiple bomb holes in their. It had been bombed that morning but did not release. But that ice layer was real. There were a couple of smaller snowfalls the week before and no snow stuck to the ice in either of those events.
There was incredible pressure on all slopes that morning, with parking lots full by 930. It seemed like people were being pretty aggressive to get to visible powder lines before anyone else got there.
What does this mean? What did the people do that was aggressive? What are "visible powder lines"?Quote:
Originally Posted by gone2alpine
You would just have to be there. It's just not like it used to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by dump
There was a time not so long ago. when you showed up dropped your skis in the lineup. and went inside for a coffee and a Doughnut. 30 minuets before loading time everyone walked out of the warm and stepped in. Everyone was nice.
It's not like that anymore.
It's aggressive and Ugly. From the time they get past Auburn heading up 80 to the hotel, 89, parking, in the lift line. and down the hill. Self entitled RAGE.
I disengaged from it 10 years ago.
I have been bumped, pushed, had my skis stomped on, Snaked while lining up a sketchy drop.
It's the people, and many are not cool.
I ski with a loaded 45 under my jacket. "And generally feel the need too"
After 55 years in the same places. I do not recognize it anymore.
These aggressive fuckers will run over your children and call them !@#$ as they ski by.
Sig worthy, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT
Full disclosure, You understand I am not kidding Right?Quote:
Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark
FEPPS (future evidence post preservation service)Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT
That's ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT
It's like that everywhere and takes away the fun. Powder days and rope drops are where people get in touch with their inner asshole. En mass, it all happens fast and it's easy to see how not pausing to consider potential risks is last on the list.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT
Damn, that sucks
WTF? Like seriously - W.T.F. dude.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT
Couldn't have said it better myself. However, I would bet that he isn't the only mag who regularly packs heat at the hill. Welcome to 21st century America.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyfromterrace
May God have mercy on our souls.....Quote:
Originally Posted by glademaster
Just kidding, I'm atheist as fuck but, shit oh dear that's disturbing.
I ski Alpine regularly... I’m here right now in fact. Caught third or fourth chair on Summit this morning for a mini pow day. It was mellow, everyone was polite. I didn’t have to strangle any bitches trying to snake my spot in line and somehow survived despite leaving my piece at home.
Is this real life?
You packin heat?
What in the actual fuck. A thread drift from an avalanche death to carrying a gun while you ski because somebody might snake your line?
Dude needs help. Professional help.
Seriously. Squaw can get a little agro (even that is way overplayed) but Alpine is still pretty chill for the most part... plenty of tele skiers abound, and of course safety meetings as well. No firearms necessary.
45 seems like overkill. Unless your in bear country.
9mm should be enough for a powder day lift line.
And not be as noticeable when you’re hucking stuff
I fully believed you. I was just commenting on your inability to spell.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT
FFS.
You're really going to shoot someone over a skiing upset?
Biggest case of small dick syndrome ever on the TRG.
FIFYQuote:
Originally Posted by MTT
Of course not!. And really half of it would be because I don'r want to leave it in the car.Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
And then there is California, can't ski there. I don't own any guns with magazines that only hold 10 rounds.
= I just go nekkid when I put in an appearance at Homewood or Mammoth.
Youes guys. are fun to play with. I knew the dumb ass from Jersey would come on hard. = Your whats wrong with Nevada
It's not anywhere near as bad as MTT says. Remember, he disengaged 10 years ago.
We are, at heart, powdermaggots, and devouring powder lines is what we do. Aggressively. If someone snakes you while you're 'lining up a drop' that just means they're a better skier than you. It means he or she had to avoid you while trying to ski their line fluidly. It's a reason to try harder next time, not a reason to shoot them.
That’s MAGA AFQuote:
Originally Posted by MTT
To be fair, with all the helmets and goggles you don't know who's brown out there on the hill, so you gotta be packinQuote:
Originally Posted by jackattack
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT
ok boomer
MTT’s a fucking idiot. We all know this.
Complaining about aggros yet he skis with a loaded 45.....
He IS the problem.
What a fucking dense asshole.
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