New School Geometry Back In Time...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HAB

That last point on taking these with a grain of salt is a good one, especially for short link bikes (VPP, DW, etc). With those designs, small inaccuracies in selecting pivot points can make a pretty big difference in the result. Single pivots, or longer link 4 bar bikes should generally be more accurate.


And, fine, I guess people can have different preferences from me. :D I pretty strongly prefer more straight progressive leverage curves, but the stuff toast said about the tradeoffs isn't wrong.

---

Right on. I'm on the other end of the spectrum. I've been riding VPP bikes for a long time, and I like the way they react, and it's predictable for me. But I'm not a straight up downhiller - I like going up tech steep stuff and I like going down fast, and I like flow, and the trails I ride support that (not that you linear guys don't, just talking about me.)

However, read Toast's really excellent explaination - VPP is especially sensitive to setting sag exactly "right" or at least, the same for each bike you ride, cause if you don't, the bike is going to react differently and you won't like it - and it won't feel intuitive. I play with my sag all the time, usually as an overreaction to when I ride poorly one day. Linear designs pretty much don't have those touchy issues.

If I switched designs I'd probably get used to it quickly, and maybe I'd love it, but I like the ability to mess with stuff when you are tuning sag, etc.

Now having said all that, Intense has changed the response curve. In the image below, their 2016 Tracer had the blue curve, and the newer T275c, which I ride, has the red curve. Much more linear. However, it still has some of those progressive characteristics which I like - but way closer to the linear stuff being talked about here. It's still VPP, kind of, but they tweaked it so much they don't even call it that anymore.

Attachment 310596

Santa Cruz is changing things up too. All the new lower link driven bikes are much more linear progressive.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GYs_rJNSm...h_LevRatio.gif

It's also worth noting that we're only talking about / looking at leverage curves here. But the anti rise and anti squat numbers are also going to have a fairly significant impact on how the suspension moves. Unless you take your chain and brakes off, in which case yeah, anti rise / squat curves don't matter.

Thanks doods.
It explains why everyone I know who's had a short link bike has really struggled to dial in the shock. While I've been pretty happy on my Knollys (and other).

To be clear, those kinds of parabolic leverage curves aren't inherent traits of short link bikes. But they are how Santa Cruz and Intense, in particular, set up their trail bikes for a long, long time.

Heh: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-...rim-donut.html

Has anyone seen leverage curves from bikes we rode in the early oughts?
Like a giant AcS, an early Rocky Mountain Switch or Slayer, a Specialized enduro, or whatever else you can think of?
Ooh, I have one I would like to see, a Giant NRS!

http://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/20...duro-2010.html
http://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/20...ayer-2011.html

Those are the earliest I can find. The LR for the Slayer is really good, would be perfectly fine on a 2020 bike. Antisquat is terrible though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andeh

http://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/20...duro-2010.html
http://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/20...ayer-2011.html

Those are the earliest I can find. The LR for the Slayer is really good, would be perfectly fine on a 2020 bike. Antisquat is terrible though.

---

Yeah boy! And people wonder why VPP was such a big deal at the time...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andeh

http://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/20...duro-2010.html
http://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/20...ayer-2011.html

Those are the earliest I can find. The LR for the Slayer is really good, would be perfectly fine on a 2020 bike. Antisquat is terrible though.

---

The Enduro actually looks pretty good too. It's antisquat numbers make sense in the context of a triple chainring drivetrain. And the leverage rate probably actually worked pretty well with the 2010 era air shocks. You can also see the comparison to a 2005 Enduro on the graph, which had a more linear progressive leverage curve. That '05 Enduro looks similar to a lot of bikes currently on the market (although they don't graph the antisquat in a gear that's comparable to modern 1x bikes).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by toast2266

The Enduro actually looks pretty good too. It's antisquat numbers make sense in the context of a triple chainring drivetrain. And the leverage rate probably actually worked pretty well with the 2010 era air shocks. You can also see the comparison to a 2005 Enduro on the graph, which had a more linear progressive leverage curve. That '05 Enduro looks similar to a lot of bikes currently on the market (although they don't graph the antisquat in a gear that's comparable to modern 1x bikes).

---

Well, the Slayer is still pretty low. But the 2010 Enduro one makes sense. Like you're saying, small granny rings kind of necessitated more moderate anti-squat numbers if you're looking at the middle ring (i.e. comparing to a modern bike). A 22t ring on a modern bike would have a massive amount of AS, and consequently pedal kickback through the roof.

That's actually what drove me to 1x in the first place, back in the 9 speed days. My first gen Banshee Spitfire had so much pedal kickback that I couldn't stand climbing anything technical with it in the granny gear, and figured that if I wasn't going to use the 22t, I might as well lose it, the derailleur and the shifter, and run a proper DH chainguide, since clutch derailleurs and narrow wide chainrings weren't a thing yet.

Heh, yeah, pedal kickback in the granny was brutal on a lot of those older bikes. Which is funny, because I barely pay any attention to that number on modern bikes - I can't recall riding a bike in the last 5 years where pedal kickback was bad enough to matter (at least for me).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by toast2266

Heh, yeah, pedal kickback in the granny was brutal on a lot of those older bikes. Which is funny, because I barely pay any attention to that number on modern bikes - I can't recall riding a bike in the last 5 years where pedal kickback was bad enough to matter (at least for me).

---

Yeah, I haven't been on anything that made me think or care about it in a long time either. Probably pushing 10 years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by toast2266

Heh, yeah, pedal kickback in the granny was brutal on a lot of those older bikes. Which is funny, because I barely pay any attention to that number on modern bikes - I can't recall riding a bike in the last 5 years where pedal kickback was bad enough to matter (at least for me).

---

ibis

This discussion is enlightening.

Also, I am still riding a 2006 Enduro Pro that is mostly original other than a new dropper post [emoji23]. I’m a Neanderthal.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GeorgiaSnow

This discussion is enlightening.

Also, I am still riding a 2006 Enduro Pro that is mostly original other than a new dropper post [emoji23]. I’m a Neanderthal.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

---

Yawn...

Ride yer bike. Have fun. Never go full enduro

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by simple

Yawn...

Ride yer bike. Have fun. Be a dick about it

---

Fixed



Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums