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Let’s say a single private operator starts posting avalanche obs that also happens to include near misses, caught and carried, and fatal accidents, while no one else is - can you see a fear around how prospective customers would view their business?Quote:
Originally Posted by Angle Parking
Seems like a regulatory gap if the overall industry record is unacceptable to the public.
A heli guide I recently toured with opined that if all of the commercially guided slides, and especially injuries and near-misses, were reported publicly rather than via InfoEx in Canada the industry would suffer. I expect that's true.
General vicinity https://www.akmountain.com/wp-conten...ryski-0007.jpg
Names are out. Parents. Fuck! Super sad. Best wishes to all affected.
This is horrible RIP.
If they were skiing a coolie it seems odd to me all 3 would be descending at the same time unless they thought it was bomber. And considering the size I'm guessing so. This thing ripped wide, deep, and long. I'm guessing they had tracked this already since the last significant snowfall. Snow science is so damn imperfect.
And regarding heli slides, an acquaintance that I've skied with was buried last yr and it blew his knee out. That was not reported anywhere that I'm aware of as it ended relatively fine.
Holy Terrain TrapsQuote:
Originally Posted by Bunion 2020
brutal. vibes
Watching this after what we know is pretty eeire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oorCXndQCsE
Yikes.Quote:
Originally Posted by pappag
Cant imagine how helpless you’d feel doing a search for 3 clients and seeing those depth numbers on your beacon.
In 2013 at the Sheep Creek accident, we had one victim buried 16 to 18 feet deep. It took 20+ rescuers more that an hour to dig the victim out. For these guys in Alaska, I'd consider sling-loading in a backhoe by heli. Waiting for the bears to dig them out wouldn't be what the families would want.
here is recent update with photo. not seeing 100ft debris but maybe I am not seeing the photo correctly. https://www.alaskasnewssource.com/20...led-avalanche/
That is a photo of the area in general not an after the fact photo so no debris. I have skied that zone w/CPG quite a bit in the past. There are some huge gullies down low for sure with PZ points well above them in seemingly safe areas. Have heard a few rumors but still not sure what actually happened other than whats been reported. Obviously a monster of a slide and monsters can render what normally seems to be safe protocols and safe spots ineffective. Waiting like everyone else to hear what actually happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by BFD
Whoa, that is a crazy zone. Everything bleeds into that gully.
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40' or 100' really little difference other than a number.
Agree. Recovery, a nightmare. Beacons will be dead fairly soon, remote location, overhead hazard, extreme depth...nothing good or easy about it. Not likely to just melt out that deep either. Plus can imagone being in a 40 foot plus hole during warming spring weather...no thanks.
Yes this is an extremely complicated situation. You cannot simply sling in a backhoe. A dozer or trucks would be needed to remove the snow. OSHA classifies snow as type c material 1.5 to 1 for a safe slope. Big difference in how much material needs to be moved. Going 100 ft is a mining scenario. Also probably not likely the forest service will let them to walk a fleet of heavy equipment in. Especially with thawed ground and no snow cover. They will melt out. It took 2 years for the damalanche in Valdez to totally disappear. That was the largest avalanche I have seen. Here is a good video of what it takes to deal with a huge avalanche. And I don't think the debris was 100ft deep.https://dot.alaska.gov/highways/rich...malanche.shtml the video is worth watching. A terrible situation for all involved. I am far from an expert but just offering an opinion.
On the subject of transparency--I was caught in a small slide I triggered heli skiing in Alaska. Head and one arm free. No injury. Nothing was said about it to the group at dinner that night. AFAIK the other clients were not aware.
<p>
I was as well back in 2012.It was a small surface instability in a localized terrain feature (localized wind slab) at the edge of a small chute with a relatively safe runout that never had the possibility of burying me.Not really a big deal.That is way different than putting 3 people in the line of fire on a huge face/couloir with a massive terrain trap at the base of the line on a considerable day with a possibility of slab avalanches on a PWL in the forecast.Someone seriously fucked up here.Stay educated, read the avalanche forecasts and NEVER blindly trust your guides with your life.If something doesnt feel right speak up and push back.</p>
^^^ All good advice. If someone takes a ride at any operation I would think it would be a great topic to discuss especially at a Heli or Cat Op. I'm pretty sure after all the waivers you must sign its no secret that at times, shit does happen and having a little knowledge isn't a bad thing. But maybe that is just me.
I will say that the operation I was with had the first group up dig a pit every morning. And had us skiing one at a time to the guide, even though the terrain was pretty low angle.
I remember StuntCok took a ride years back. Avalung in, then pulled airbag trigger. He wasn’t buried
KarlStall got slid at Rendezvous in [emoji638][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji639]]? When a bunch of maggots were there. Theo Meiners(RIP) had a group conscience out in the field with the groups to decide whether to continue skiing that day
They posted about it here on the forum with photos and videos so I don’t feel like I’m betraying confidences
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I was there! I never really felt exposed.
Karl Stall cut a very aggressive turn a little higher and a little outside of the normal slope and it cut loose.
Theo didn't let him go first anymore.
Rendevouz did that.Quote:
Originally Posted by BFD
Also, MW had an absolutely dialed and professional snow safety program. Hope that remains the same.
The little op with one bird and two guides, well no morning pit, but did indeed dig a pit ... spent a long time in it. That alone got my hackles up. It was on the slope that ended up sliding. Guides don't want to burn hobbes hours pulling out if thy can avoid it. But then they did anyway.
Oh boy don’t let Rocky here you say that. I was right there when that happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shredhead;[emoji[emoji6[emoji640
The entire valley ripped loose one chute after the other.
Didn’t he say he went in
Hot, even caught a little air on the entrance
Theo said afterwards…my tracks remained
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But wasn't that after we switched to different exposures?Quote:
Originally Posted by skideeppow
I remember Theo calling up on the next run, "Let Brownie go first, that boy has a light touch".
We skied till 9pm that day and I got 13 runs.
The lack of information out there from the local avalanche organizations 3 weeks now after a triple fatality involving a guided group is super concerning. Makes me really appreciated the diligence of the CAIC here in Colorado.
Fwiw, there was a snowmobiler killed in an avalanche on the last day of February here and the report isn’t out yet. Patience is a virtue, something in short supply these days it would seem.
I could be full of crap, but my guess is that fatalities at a commercial operation means an investigation by law enforcement and that will also mean a delay in publishing a writeup by an avalanche center.
There might also be difficulties in accessing the area, but people who know the region would have to weigh in on that.
I have never known there to be an investigation by law enforcement of a heli skiing death in Alaska. The avalanche centers do not do investigations. I imagine that might be due to the waivers clients sign. A lawyer can chime in. Law enforcement did step in and investigated and prosecuted Whitewater Engineering for an avalanche death on a job site in Cordova,AK. https://www.claimsjournal.com/news/w...2/26/75416.htm
I do not know who investigates what, when or why, but the recent fatality at Mammoth had no avi report that I could find at ESAC.
There was just another fatality in the Kootenay's with a heli op , so curious if there is a report.
They rarely do avy center write-ups for inbounds slides, because a resort snowpack is basically irrelevant for backcountry perspective.
I believe the mammoth fatality investigation and report involving an employee of MMSA is completed by CalOSHA.
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Can you forward that to skiracereightyeight? He’s concerned
You can.
does anyone know if they have recovered the bodies yet? Can't seem to find anything in google search.
Been nothing in the Anchorage paper. I would imagine it could be late July.
Still nothing? Will that kind of snow depth melt away at all this whole summer.
Gotta be hard on the families.
Mankato Press posted this mid-June: https://www.mankatofreepress.com/new...fed321c51.html
They checked the site early June and it was a no-go. Latest is “Snow and avalanche conditions are largely driven by the weather conditions in the area,” McDaniel said. “Much of this area has had a very cool start to summer. However, weather is beginning to show signs that it will warm up, which makes us hopeful that we will be able to access the area this summer.”