Title 9 is dead

Trans women have never been shown to disproportionately successful in any sport.

The studies I've seen that show they have a physical advantage over cis women have been conducted on untrained college students. This means the studies are pretty much meaningless. At least one study comparing trans and cis women athletes showed no statistically significant advantage. Why does this make sense? Athletes aren't average. Trans youth make up a bit more than 1% of the population and most of them don't want to deal with the bullying and harassment they'll face if they play sports. So you're looking at a very small group competing against the best women. This is why trans women don't dominate any sport. Yet when a trans woman wins anything d-bags like some of you all scream about it to the hilltops as proof that women's sports are dying.

Be honest with yourselves. You want to ban trans women because you don't think they are women. Congrats on joining forces with the White nationalists and helping to make America great again.

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Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!

Trans women have never been shown to disproportionately successful in any sport.

The studies I've seen that show they have a physical advantage over cis women have been conducted on untrained college students. This means the studies are pretty much meaningless. At least one study comparing trans and cis women athletes showed no statistically significant advantage. Why does this make sense? Athletes aren't average. Trans youth make up a bit more than 1% of the population and most of them don't want to deal with the bullying and harassment they'll face if they play sports. So you're looking at a very small group competing against the best women. This is why trans women don't dominate any sport. Yet when a trans woman wins anything d-bags like some of you all scream about it to the hilltops as proof that women's sports are dying.

Be honest with yourselves. You want to ban trans women because you don't think they are women. Congrats on joining forces with the White nationalists and helping to make America great again.

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no. Just no.

skiJ

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

I was guessing on the number, I suck at math, bravo to you.

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I expect 99% of trans-mathletes would embarrass you both and then be sad that their beloved numbers were dragged into it in the first place.

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Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!

Trans women have never been shown to disproportionately successful in any sport.

The studies I've seen that show they have a physical advantage over cis women have been conducted on untrained college students. This means the studies are pretty much meaningless. At least one study comparing trans and cis women athletes showed no statistically significant advantage. Why does this make sense? Athletes aren't average. Trans youth make up a bit more than 1% of the population and most of them don't want to deal with the bullying and harassment they'll face if they play sports. So you're looking at a very small group competing against the best women. This is why trans women don't dominate any sport. Yet when a trans woman wins anything d-bags like some of you all scream about it to the hilltops as proof that women's sports are dying.

Be honest with yourselves. You want to ban trans women because you don't think they are women. Congrats on joining forces with the White nationalists and helping to make America great again.

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This is a bullshit response about an issue that well meaning people who support trans rights take different positions on. Why stop at White nationalists? Don't you mean Nazis? Isn't banning trans women from women's sports like the Holocaust?

And yes, in the overall scheme of things it's a minor issues but it is an important issue to the athletes involved. And so deserves a thoughtful response, not a predetermined response based on ideology.

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Originally Posted by old goat

And so deserves a thoughtful response, not a predetermined response based on ideology.

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This is TGR, ideology is implicit, as are broad accusations. Nobody posts here expecting a thoughtful, engaging, civil discussion.

Maybe we all need some estrogen HRT, although most here are old enough that their testosterone producing Leydig cells are becoming dysfunctional and the little testosterone they do produce is rapidly converted to estrogen by aromatase creating large, puffy, gynecomastia boobies we can all snuggle in.

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Originally Posted by old goat

This is a bullshit response about an issue that well meaning people who support trans rights take different positions on. Why stop at White nationalists? Don't you mean Nazis? Isn't banning trans women from women's sports like the Holocaust?

And yes, in the overall scheme of things it's a minor issues but it is an important issue to the athletes involved. And so deserves a thoughtful response, not a predetermined response based on ideology.

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while I appreciate this goat,
I still strongly discourage comparing anything to the upheaval in the world in the 1930s and 1940s -

regarding gender and sports , about my only interest(s) are < that there is no competitive advantage ; and
that the rules are followed.

Today, I think if someone wants to call themself a woman or a man, ,,, I believe as a species we have bigger problems to worry about -

( for someone to say others don't believe "trans women' are 'women" ,,, is just junk -

let the 'trans women' compete with other 'trans women' -

End of story. )

A man altering their body to be more feminine is no different than a woman altering her body to be more feminine. Either you belive you must roll with the body you were born with or you don't. Fake tits are fake tits.. Doesn't matter what's below them.. .. Also doesn't matter what used to be below them.. Either be OK with changing a body or don't be.. No saying it's OK for X but not for Y.

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Originally Posted by old goat

And yes, in the overall scheme of things it's a minor issues but it is an important issue to the athletes involved. And so deserves a thoughtful response, not a predetermined response based on ideology.

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Agreed. Sports need to be fair. That's the issue here. I'm absolutely sure there are plenty of people who don't want to see trans athletes participating just because they think it's "unnatural" or some other BS reason, but that's far from the only consideration. Women have fought very hard for a place in the sports world and athletes who participated at a high level as men just a year or two previously is simply not fair to the cis-female competitors.

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

although most here are old enough that their testosterone producing Leydig cells are becoming dysfunctional and the little testosterone they do produce is rapidly converted to estrogen by aromatase creating large, puffy, gynecomastia boobies we can all snuggle in.

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So the padded room as we know it is fucked and saved all at the same time?

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

This is TGR, ideology is implicit, as are broad accusations. Nobody posts here expecting a thoughtful, engaging, civil discussion.

Maybe we all need some estrogen HRT, although most here are old enough that their testosterone producing Leydig cells are becoming dysfunctional and the little testosterone they do produce is rapidly converted to estrogen by aromatase creating large, puffy, gynecomastia boobies we can all snuggle in.

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Wait--you say TGR is no place for a thoughtful discussion and then you hit us with SCIENCE? WTF? (Remind me what a Leydig cell is. It's been a while.)

I can’t wrap my head around this debate. Genetics are genetics.

Sports don’t give a fuck about your feelings.

Fuck off, loser.

White men can’t jump.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

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Originally Posted by Rasputin

However, on the topic of transgender athletes, intersex is a bit of a red herring. Again, from Amnesty International:

Myth 4: Intersex people are transgender.

Being intersex has nothing to do with being transgender.

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Because sex and gender are not the same thing. I only brought up intersex to show that sex is not binary

Women’s sports were set up to be a handicapped version of men’s sports based on a classification that the world is figuring out it doesn’t know how to define. The whole thing is arbitrary to start. Shocker we can’t all come to a consensus.

Also, “fair” is an absurd standard in sports. I’m still waiting for the skinny short white guys who can’t jump basketball league. Until then, there’s a greater distinction between a 7 foot dude built like a Greek god vs me playing basketball and a trans athlete vs a cis woman running track.

I think we just need to take the gender out and tier the sports leagues based on ability/skill. Or some other mechanism of classification that we’ve been socialized to believe is “fair” and makes for compelling entertainment. Or we can just keep fighting about it… I think that’s sort of the point of all this anyways. Be nice to take the hurt and shame out of the discussion though.

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Originally Posted by skiJ

let the 'trans women' compete with other 'trans women' -

End of story. )

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How exactly do you see this playing out? Some 8th grader in rural Vermont ends up being trans and still wants the experience of being part of a basketball team. It’s already been well documented that there is a small percentage of trans people and an even smaller subset that wants to play sports. Where are they going to find a trans team to play on?

Every time there are discussions on how to save money in the school budget we hear how sports can’t be cut because of the valuable social skills, learning to be part of a team, and learning to win or lose gracefully. Seems like this is all BS if we can’t find a way to accommodate all kids trying to find their path in life.

Gravity is an equal opportunity downer.

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

I think we just need to take the gender out and tier the sports leagues based on ability/skill. Or some other mechanism of classification that we’ve been socialized to believe is “fair” and makes for compelling entertainment. Or we can just keep fighting about it… I think that’s sort of the point of all this anyways. Be nice to take the hurt and shame out of the discussion though.

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Except sports aren’t all about entertainment and viewership. Sports are also about the participants, which is the center of the debate (or vitriol if we’re talking TGR).

Most high school sports have low audience, kids are participating because they enjoy it, not necessarily for an audience except maybe their parents. Powerlifting, CrossFit competitions, and other “sports” with small audiences would also pertain.

It’s a tough topic, probably no perfect answer. For kids, I think it’s more nuanced. For adults, it’s not (in my opinion).

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Except sports aren’t all about entertainment and viewership. Sports are also about the participants, which is the center of the debate (or vitriol if we’re talking TGR).

Most high school sports have low audience, kids are participating because they enjoy it, not necessarily for an audience except maybe their parents. Powerlifting, CrossFit competitions, and other “sports” with small audiences would also pertain.

It’s a tough topic, probably no perfect answer. For kids, I think it’s more nuanced. For adults, it’s not (in my opinion).

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Agreed, to a point. Which is why I think it’s a classification problem, not a gender problem. We figured it out for golf. Is a track and field handicap that much harder? Schools already divide according to how competitive they are.

I’m just tossing thoughts into the void. I don’t think I actually have the answers.

Bummer for kids, both the potentially excluded trans kids and the competing cis-girls for potentially getting crushed by a post pubescent trans-girl. Do college athletic scholarships enter the discussion?

We have para-Olympics, with few exceptions (Pitorious) who ran in the Olympics as well. Are trans-kids deserving of a “para” class? No. But maybe trans-girls with a pretty undeniable advantage need to keep competing with boys until after high school then life just becomes “not fair”?

The number of trans athletes in youth sports is miniscule, the number of trans athletes receiving scholarships is even smaller. Half a million college athletes, about 1/3 of those receive sone sort of scholarship. Do trans scholarships break out of double digit individuals? Probably less than 0.1% of athletes perhaps closer to 0.01%

If there are 40 female high school soccer players for every scholarship potentially available, it ain’t a trans athlete that’s pipping them

but the great trans panic is just bigoted bullshit for people that like bullshit

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

We figured it out for golf. Is a track and field handicap that much harder?

I don’t think I actually have the answers.

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Obviously. Some track events are decided by hundreths of a second or an inch.

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Originally Posted by Timberridge

Obviously. Some track events are decided by hundreths of a second or an inch.

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That seemed unnecessarily dickish.

If the issue is that trans athletes are winning by hundredths of a second or an inch I’m not sure we have the problem this is being made out to be.

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Originally Posted by dunfree

The number of trans athletes in youth sports is miniscule, the number of trans athletes receiving scholarships is even smaller. Half a million college athletes, about 1/3 of those receive sone sort of scholarship. Do trans scholarships break out of double digit individuals? Probably less than 0.1% of athletes perhaps closer to 0.01%

If there are 40 female high school soccer players for every scholarship potentially available, it ain’t a trans athlete that’s pipping them

but the great trans panic is just bigoted bullshit for people that like bullshit

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Bigoted bullshit or just a topic of conversation?

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Originally Posted by Markeyz

Gravity is an equal opportunity downer.

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RIP Shane

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

That seemed unnecessarily dickish.

If the issue is that trans athletes are winning by hundredths of a second or an inch I’m not sure we have the problem this is being made out to be.

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It was, because it's a stupid comment. How do you handicap a sprint event that's measured in hundreths of a second?

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Originally Posted by Flounder

How exactly do you see this playing out? Some 8th grader in rural Vermont ends up being trans and still wants the experience of being part of a basketball team. It’s already been well documented that there is a small percentage of trans people and an even smaller subset that wants to play sports. Where are they going to find a trans team to play on?

Every time there are discussions on how to save money in the school budget we hear how sports can’t be cut because of the valuable social skills, learning to be part of a team, and learning to win or lose gracefully. Seems like this is all BS if we can’t find a way to accommodate all kids trying to find their path in life.

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post acknowledged -
Others have offered some good comments to your post, Flounder.
I will give it additional thought -

I will offer,
I don't believe we can "accommodate all kids" every wish as they ' try to find their path in life. ' and
until "all kids" have access to fundamental education, adequate nutrition, and fundamental medical care, ,,, and a fundamentally Safe school !

those will be my priorities.

skiJ

I think everyone is so wrapped up with this goat culture that they can't get it out of their heads when there's an anomaly that fucks up their data set. But wait, you say, we need an apples to apples comparison of the greatest all time Vermont high school girls shot putters and if there's a post pubescent trans girl in the mix then the data isn't reliable enough to crown little Susie as the single finest high school shot putter Vermont has ever seen. Unacceptable!

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Bigoted bullshit or just a topic of conversation?

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Guess it depends. Here on TGR I’d say it’s a topic of conversation. In the broader context there is a ton of bigoted bullshit which really can’t be denied.

Avi Silverberg, a male power lifting coach, trolled a women’s power lifting event “identifying” as a female to prove a point. Broke yhe previous women’s record by about 100 pounds.

Obvious troll, but where’s the boundary? What steps should be taken or proven before declaring female status? Testosterone level?

Curious to answers without vitriol if that’s possible here.

Some fun mixed gender track

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8AyMplnFVU

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Originally Posted by Timberridge

It was, because it's a stupid comment. How do you handicap a sprint event that's measured in hundreths of a second?

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By… handicapping them? Pick a target time per event and plus/minus according to past performance. This is just a math problem, it doesn’t matter if we’re measuring in millionths of seconds. Divide competitions and heats by handicap range and get ready to scream at your kid’s coach.

Or find some other way to split them up. That’s the point right? Give little Jenny something to run for and not be demoralized by Becky who is 6’3” and an athletic freak, whether she’s cis or not? Or is it only a problem if we get to be transphobic about it?

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Avi Silverberg, a male power lifting coach, trolled a women’s power lifting event “identifying” as a female to prove a point. Broke yhe previous women’s record by about 100 pounds.

Obvious troll, but where’s the boundary? What steps should be taken or proven before declaring female status? Testosterone level?

Curious to answers without vitriol if that’s possible here.

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You post vitriol because you are wedded to this being an issue. And it’s not one. But all of the things to enforce the great trans bans? Those, those are gonna be issues.

”timing to 1/100th of a second” is meaningless in events that already have athletes with the same times. 1/100th is about 8cm at state finals 100m, 5cm at 1600m

It’s an issue for the UCI and World Athletics, cycling and track-field governing bodies. It is an issue in international in athletics. Both have banned transgender athletes. Various states are doing the same.

While it’s not an issue for you, clearly it is for many athletic governing bodies.

I’ll ask again, in athletics, what qualifies someone to participate as a trans-athlete? Previous it was a testosterone level, but that has changed. Should trans-men also be held to a testosterone level they can’t exceed? For many male sports, T:E ratio was a big thing for identifying cheating male athletes taking exogenous testosterone. Maybe a hemoglobin/hematocrit level like cycling during the EPO era?

If 1/100th of a second is meaningless, why bother with timers/finish line cameras at all?

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

By… handicapping them? Pick a target time per event and plus/minus according to past performance. This is just a math problem, it doesn’t matter if we’re measuring in millionths of seconds. Divide competitions and heats by handicap range and get ready to scream at your kid’s coach.

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Ok--give it a shot. Here are Shawnti Jackson's (one of the top HS sprinters) times in the 100m this past spring. What should her handicap be?

Attachment 467958

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Originally Posted by Timberridge

Ok--give it a shot. Here are Shawnti Jackson's (one of the top HS sprinters) times in the 100m this past spring. What should her handicap be?

Attachment 467958

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You’d need more data, but this isn’t actually a hard problem, and fuck you if you think I’m going to put this shit into a spreadsheet for you. The point is, whether it’s some sort of handicap-type classification or something else, we can separate competitors by something besides just gender and age (or race or class) and probably fix a few other issues while we’re at it, like economic opportunity and the genetic lottery and a half dozen others.

These are all the races she ran in this spring. Where do we get more data? Last year when she was a HS junior?

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

and fuck you if you think I’m going to put this shit into a spreadsheet for you.

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Attachment 467961

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Originally Posted by Timberridge

These are all the races she ran in this spring. Where do we get more data? Last year when she was a HS junior?

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I was thinking you might look at competitors at the same events and the same competitors at different events to make some meaningful statistical analysis to separate competitors into groups that make sense.

But you probably don’t actually need a ton more data if you wanted to keep it simple.

They're called seed times. They already do that. They don't put fast runners with slow runners in a race. It's never used to determine the outcome of a race like a handicap would be.

How is being trans any different than any other physical/mental trait? We dont offer exceptions for short people, slow people, weak people, or folks who are headcases that have difficulty performing under pressure. Why are transwomen the only people deserving of such an exception? No one is stopping trans folks from competing in rec leagues and enjoying the benefits of sport like the rest of us who didnt have the physical/mental talents to make it to the "next level".

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

Or find some other way to split them up. That’s the point right? Give little Jenny something to run for and not be demoralized by Becky who is 6’3” and an athletic freak, whether she’s cis or not? Or is it only a problem if we get to be transphobic about it?

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To me an intrinsic part of sports is the realization nearly every athlete has that there's most likely going to be someone better than them and most athletes are going to lose more than they're going to win. And, yes, that the athletic freak is going to kick your ass. The calculus changes when someone suddenly becomes dominant, for example because they start taking steroids to improve their performance or they change their gender from male to female. I suppose some people might think these latter cases are just an example that "sports aren't fair," but to me they are way different. When you start altering your physiology through exogenous means you are doing something much different than training.