A few questions

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skifishbum

are you really saying me, my wife and at least 1/2 of people who mentored and or/learned with me are doing it or did it wrong?
personally there was a time when i thought i knew or could learn all you need to not be one of them
died doin what they loved er
but it dont always work out that way
i always liked the hand full of luck and another of skills that may or may not allow you to make good decisions and survive mistakes that like dieing every body makes
and hows much lucks left or where and when those skills might come froms or if there is enough in either hands always unknown

---

I believe things have changed quite a bit. I think when I first started skiing backcountry around 17yrs ago it was a fairly common practice to find an experienced parnter/group and have a "mentor" who made it clear what best practices, terrain assessment, snow science, group think etc were. I didn't take an avy 1 for a couple years after having gotten into backcountry skiing (well snowboarding) and while informative, it was information had already learned more from experiences partners. I believe the more options and access to information to people new to the backcountry the better. However like mentioned above sometimes younger groups with some experience(say avy 1) can a false sense of security when getting into big and complex terrain such as Cooke. That being said there's also plenty of really fun less consequential terrain as well. I'll also echo that communication is huge especially with new partners. People can have different risk tolerances and it's important to speak up and make your opinion known as well have the group respect that.

O.P. sounds like you're doing everthing you can. There's quite a bit of good advice in this thread. I'll add that bell lake yurt and beartooth powder both do avy 1 field courses that are a pretty sweet deal. Hell book one together and get some great skiing in with your boy while getting you both a little piece of mind.

Quote:

---

I'll add that bell lake yurt and beartooth powder both do avy 1 field courses that are a pretty sweet deal. Hell book one together and get some great skiing in with your boy while getting you both a little piece of mind.

---

A most excellent suggestion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lifelinksplit

I believe things have changed quite a bit. I think when I first started skiing backcountry around 17yrs ago it was a fairly common practice to find an experienced parnter/group and have a "mentor" who made it clear what best practices, terrain assessment, snow science, group think etc were. I didn't take an avy 1 for a couple years after having gotten into backcountry skiing (well snowboarding) and while informative, it was information had already learned more from experiences partners. I believe the more options and access to information to people new to the backcountry the better. However like mentioned above sometimes younger groups with some experience(say avy 1) can a false sense of security when getting into big and complex terrain such as Cooke. That being said there's also plenty of really fun less consequential terrain as well. I'll also echo that communication is huge especially with new partners. People can have different risk tolerances and it's important to speak up and make your opinion known as well have the group respect that.

O.P. sounds like you're doing everthing you can. There's quite a bit of good advice in this thread. I'll add that bell lake yurt and beartooth powder both do avy 1 field courses that are a pretty sweet deal. Hell book one together and get some great skiing in with your boy while getting you both a little piece of mind.

---

spot ons
when we started the avvy report was on at 7 on community radio
and you dialed a phone for the recording if ya missed it
wasnt but a few classes
i almost had to get tele gear :wink:
id still rather take a newbie with strong 1st aid and companion rescue and communication skills
than someone who thinks avvy 1 is magical experiance bonus hours or techy snow science knowledge
or you cant glean something outta covrets fine podcasts or a avvy seminar that could be a game changer at some point
on a given day on a given slope

Get him Bruce Tremper's books. Staying Alive In Avalanche Terrain, and Avalanche Essentials.


Like Skifishbum, i'd rather ski/ride with a 1st responder, than a snow dork.

Never taken an avi course, and never plan to.

Discipline for where, when, and how. Safety rules are mundane, and easy for complacency to set in. Be disciplined and don't break from the mundane. One at a time, beacon check, report check, terrain choice, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skihiker

So, I do feel better about the group he's going with, and he said he'd update me as time for departure got closer. Also said that this group looks at the updated Avy site, Gallatin, on the day of departure.

---

Going with a good group is probably the best way to learn. A good group will let him experience how quickly things can go wrong, and how to avoid them. A few good sessions of Mini-Golf can help him to experience the exposure to bad decisions without large consequences.

I'm betting that a few of his group are checking the Gallatin Avi site on a daily basis. Those snow science types are known to do that.

Be glad that he is starting his education with an experienced group. Remember that the drive to the trailhead can be more dangerous than back country, yet that probably isn't keeping you up at night. Den

To all the negativity towards Avy 1, I would counter:

1. It's a good step on the path to deeper knowledge.
2. It made me realize how lucky I'd been. Times when I thought I was good, I was actually lucky. This was sobering. I have skied mellower lines on higher consequence days since.
3. It was the first time I ever heard a really good skier say, "You can have a lot of fun skiing 20 degrees if the snow is good." This sounds pretty obvious, but in a macho sport, hell-bent on steeper and steeper lines, it bears repeating.
4. Positioning an unofficial mentorship as superior to an official avy 1 course is a false dilemma. It's not either/or. Do both.

Just to be clear I have don't have negative feelings towards Avy 1. As I said the more available info for people the better.

SFB made me remember a conversation with my wife a couple weeks back...
Wife: you check the avy center website?
Me: yeah, but I used to call the hotline mostly. 586-2389
Wife: honestly?! You can't remember any phone #' s. What's my #?
Me: fuck if I know.

Yeah, i'm not anti avi course, and any learning is a good a thing, just not for me.

Guess what i should have said instead, is that it's not a get out of jail free card.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lifelinksplit

Just to be clear I have don't have negative feelings towards Avy 1. As I said the more available info for people the better.

SFB made me remember a conversation with my wife a couple weeks back...
Wife: you check the avy center website?
Me: yeah, but I used to call the hotline mostly. 586-2389
Wife: honestly?! You can't remember any phone #' s. What's my #?
Me: fuck if I know.

---

It’s funny that you used to remember it, and it’s funny that you still remember it.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lifelinksplit

Just to be clear I have don't have negative feelings towards Avy 1. As I said the more available info for people the better.

SFB made me remember a conversation with my wife a couple weeks back...
Wife: you check the avy center website?
Me: yeah, but I used to call the hotline mostly. 586-2389
Wife: honestly?! You can't remember any phone #' s. What's my #?
Me: fuck if I know.

---

Memory is such a fickle bitch.

Advisory: 406-587-6981 (has been since forever):D

Contact - Bridger Bowl Ski Area
General Information. (406) 587-2111 · Snow Phone (406) 586-2389 ·:fm:

No one here has said that L1 is the be all/end all. It is just a step down the road as well as a foundation to build knowledge upon. Not everyone has mentors available.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by capulin overdrive

Guess what i should have said instead, is that it's not a get out of jail free card.

---

Correct.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not bunion

Memory is such a fickle bitch.

Advisory: 406-587-6981 (has been since forever):D

Contact - Bridger Bowl Ski Area
General Information. (406) 587-2111 · Snow Phone (406) 586-2389 ·:fm:

No one here has said that L1 is the be all/end all. It is just a step down the road as well as a foundation to build knowledge upon. Not everyone has mentors available.

---

Haha! After I posted it I realized what I did. Still have the old sticker with the number on an old fridge.

Ok so I can remember 2 numbers!;) (I'm blaming it on turning 38 not errr other things:biggrin:)

Ha, saw your post and thought "Woah, that's the Bridger Bowl Snow Phone..." ... haven't dialed it in years but the number is burned into the brain from the Time Before Internet!

For shits, I dialed it just now. Pleasantly surprised to see it was still stored in my contacts. And Matt's voice is on the recording... 😁

I'm late to the party but here are some links primarily about heuristic traps and human factors that he ought to consider reading/watching, even after his trip if he hasn't seen them before. The first one's even in Cooke City.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7Pye9f602s

Interactive NYT article http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2012...t=tunnel-creek

OP:

1. All or most have a class, and we adjust our choices based on the skill of the group.

2&3. Yes beacon shovel probe

4. I don't always dig a pit or multiple... better question is when I dig what do I hope to learn? Usually I have a specific question or concern. And how much reliance am I placing on it? Not a ton... it is just one more observation tool.

5. I'm not going to say you have to have a rec level 1 to go out and be safe. But it sure helps promote knowledge of avalanches and decision making, rescue capability and good group management/travel habits! If you don't, then there is a lot of self education that needs to happen along with having good group habits and dynamics that are hard to get without the foundational knowledge in a L1 an experienced person leading the group who had good mentors themselves (and usually an avalanche rec level 1 at least). The BC world is full of shitty mentors.

Here are some good resources for your son:

Here is a good avalanche awareness video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvuGQkEYXeE

Here is a good video on the consequences:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7Pye9f602s

Good books:
Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain
Snow Sense

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by adrenalated

Good point. Here in CO AIARE does more or less have the market cornered on good level 1s so I'm kinda in the habit of saying that

---

What?

First, AIARE is just another brand name with a proprietary curriculum that meets the AAA educational guidelines. I know of great AIARE classes and I know of some crappy ones.

I know of great courses that are not AIARE:

Colorado Mountain College - Breckenridge

National Avalanche School

There are probably others, but I don't pay that close of attention.

Great additions. Our group was in the hellroaring hut (wall tent) a week or two after that incident. We had been going for around 5 yrs or so back when Tim ran it and had skied that slope numerous times. It was sobering to listen to him talk about it. That area also sees quite a bit of sled burials just outside of the ESA.

Sorry for the drift.

Should also look through the "what to carry thread".


Avi isn't the only way to die. There's always stuff like the experienced group getting turned around in a whiteout, and going down the wrong side and dying from exposure. Captain Crunch compass could have saved the day.

^ and wolves. They'll getcha.

Need the Captain Crunch spork for wolf protection.

Thanks for all the great links and info, people.
I will pass it all on in due time. He's busy with school, and really doesn't go in the bc that often. When he does, he goes with this group of friends who have varying degrees of experience. Not too much I can do being nearly 600 mi. away, except give him my thoughts, advice, and info gleaned from you all. It's not really his priority right now, as he's in school and busy, etc. So, I have to hope and pray that his friends know what they're doing, and encourage him to look at these videos, read, etc. himself. Trust that it all goes well.
Will be working on my own knowledge base and skills.
Thanks!

Good thing is if he did get into Snow and BC and snow-nerd stuff he might decide on a degree in Snow Science.

Most of us make slightly more than a McDonalds Manager.

OP. Been in your shoes. What you can do for your son and yourself is to get Tempers book and follow and discuss the weather and avy reports from the area he skis. After his homework of course. I was going to say when you first posted that as I recall, Temper stated that the odds of dieing in an avy your first time out is almost zero. :)