P18 Pivot FKS forward pressure - ignore the indicator?

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

The last a long time. Shorter mounting length == more natural ski flex + reduced ski length. Lots of elasticity in the heel allows running lower DINs without pre-release.

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Yup. Pivot heels are a PITA. If you want a non-Pivot w/ a very short mount length, Look makes the Rockerace in a 5-14 DIN with SPX heel. It is at least as short a mount as the Pivot (they put 4 screws directly under the heel instead of 2, eliminating the two back screws on the regular SPX) and it has more BSL range than Pivot. You'll need to grab a wider SPX brake for non-race skis. You can find new ones for $180-200 if you look a bit.

But yeah, for everyday skis, hard to beat Attacks.

For grins:

Attachment 217402

While messing around with the settings on a test mount and comparing it to past Pivot mounts, it's interesting to note that the marked BSL on the boot is very close to the dimension from the toe to heel when the dildo is pressed against the ski. These were mounted basically as stated previously with the heel just brushing the cup and the binding snapping up. This measurement might be useful to double check yourself. It'd be interesting to hear what others are seeing for this measurement relative to BSL.

The setting marks difference range around 2mm between the 3 mounts. Some fine tuning should close this difference.

The actual BSL is 296mm and not the marked BSL of 298mm, measured at the sole.

Attachment 217415

Attachment 217416

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Originally Posted by Alpinord

This comment has me wondering why there would be any expectation of change in performance if you are in the adjustment range?

I'm about to mount a 298mm boot but and considering 'what ifs' in the event I get a different flavor boot with longer BSL or to allow adjustment for my son's 306mm BSL boot. The plan was to mount for a 302mm in the middle of the 8mm adjustment range.

Depending on what day and what the weather is doing, Plan B (or A) is to mount 298 at the shortest setting and then adjust back for an 8mm bigger boot.

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Per Climberjoe's comment, " I imagine if the adjustment legs were all the way open or all the way closed it would cause issues depending on the boot, regardless of correct or incorrect pressure.":, I do not agree with this. I think if all the way in or out and forward pressure is ok and your boot fits between the struts you're fine.

I am about to find out for sure this season as I am going to ski a couple pairs wound all the way in.

FWIW I've never had my boot heels brushing the cup but rather a 2 to 3mm gap: never had an issue and fp seems right on or erring on the higher side (I check by lifting up and pushing down hard on boot in binding and dialing in the heel till no more brake movement then going an extra turn in).

My belief is these bindings have more than 8mm of adjustment at the heel and those bands on the arms are more reference points to get the adjustment even on each rather than limit markers.

Pivots only for 15 years. I’ve mounted, bent brakes, rebuilt, swapped springs in every variation of these bindings. In my experience the boot heel brushing the heel piece is almost always a perfect indicator that the forward pressure will be perfect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alpinord

While messing around with the settings on a test mount and comparing it to past Pivot mounts, it's interesting to note that the marked BSL on the boot is very close to the dimension from the toe to heel when the dildo is pressed against the ski. These were mounted basically as stated previously with the heel just brushing the cup and the binding snapping up. This measurement might be useful to double check yourself. It'd be interesting to hear what others are seeing for this measurement relative to BSL.

The setting marks difference range around 2mm between the 3 mounts. Some fine tuning should close this difference.

The actual BSL is 296mm and not the marked BSL of 298mm, measured at the sole.

Attachment 217415

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Thanks for documenting your approach, Terry. It's a good cross-validation. Lot's of different ways to get there but having a metric as a double check never hurts.

With my Lange XT-130 Freetours (size 25.5, marked as well as measuring 296mm), I'm measuring 296mm from toe to heel cup on my Dual Pivot 14 WTRs - measuring the way you depicted in your photo. At this setting, the forward pressure indicator says to ease up just a bit (by maybe 2-3mm).

... Thom

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Originally Posted by Climber Joe

He is saying that if your dildo is at 60 degrees, the forward pressure is too low, I agree with him. A dildo dangle angle of 80 degrees or so would mean greater forward pressure, and more potential elastic travel. Also, are you in a size 22 boot? That is a really high din for someone your size.

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Ah... shorter boot = higher din, longer boot = lower din.

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Originally Posted by Timberridge

Yup. Pivot heels are a PITA. If you want a non-Pivot w/ a very short mount length, Look makes the Rockerace in a 5-14 DIN with SPX heel. It is at least as short a mount as the Pivot (they put 4 screws directly under the heel instead of 2, eliminating the two back screws on the regular SPX) and it has more BSL range than Pivot. You'll need to grab a wider SPX brake for non-race skis. You can find new ones for $180-200 if you look a bit.

But yeah, for everyday skis, hard to beat Attacks.

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PX15


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Originally Posted by slowroastin

PX15

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= boat anchor

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Originally Posted by Dee Hubbs

= boat anchor

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They are heavy, but so are P18’s.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by slowroastin

They are heavy, but so are P18’s.

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P18 = 1235 g (2.72 lbs) each
PX15 = 1415 g (3.12 lbs) each

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Originally Posted by Dee Hubbs

P18 = 1235 g (2.72 lbs) each
PX15 = 1415 g (3.12 lbs) each

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The 180 gram boat anchor may be worth the tradeoff to some in regards to boot size adjustment, simple forward pressure setting and durability.






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Anyone have any experience with a loose/wiggly 18 din toe pieces? I can wiggle it from side to side

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Originally Posted by mr_pretzel

Anyone have any experience with a loose/wiggly 18 din toe pieces? I can wiggle it from side to side

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Are the screws tight? the ones that hold it to the ski? Or do you mean it wiggles from the post?

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Originally Posted by margotron

Are the screws tight? the ones that hold it to the ski? Or do you mean it wiggles from the post?

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From the post

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Originally Posted by mr_pretzel

From the post

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What is the din set at? If you have the din screw backed out, it will wiggle.

A hair of play is normal.
If you have slop take it apart and check the bushing on the post. (I've never seen one worn out...)

Now that this thread has accepted minor drift away from fwd pressure topics...

Hey FKS experts! Please see missing plastic "plug" in the joint on the right side of photo below:
Just ski it as is? Or unsafe, needs to be retired? Or just plug it with custom-shaped whittled plastic for cosmetics? Or plug it with more structural JB-stick, but in a way that won't lock up the spinning cylinder for adjusting arm length? Or what?
https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...1&d=1531502266

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Brought a pair of Pivots to see if they are any good?
Now that I've mounted the bindings, I've tried to get the forward pressure correct . How much force is required to pivot the turntable when the forward pressure is correct?

I get a good snap when you put the ski boot i the binding and the indicator seems to line up. but how much pivot action is reasonable if you grab the heel piece and try to turn it? The indicator seems kind of inaccurate...

Did you read through this thread? The whole thing is about how to set the forward pressure on pivots...

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Originally Posted by Muggydude

Did you read through this thread? That’s what is discussed...

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Yes, I did [emoji846]
I'm unsure about how much and if you should be able to pivot the turntable by moderate force? If you twist the heelpice.

Is it normal that the adjusting rods are rubbing against the ski boot? Not by much..

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by revolutionrock

Yes, I did [emoji846]
I'm unsure about how much and if you should be able to pivot the turntable by moderate force? If you twist the heelpice.

Is it normal that the adjusting rods are rubbing against the ski boot? Not by much..

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You don't pivot/rotate it to test, you press down the dildo/open the binding till the spring is horizontal to the ski and let go. If the boot snaps back into place you're good, if it pops out its not right.

Try loosening both the wings evenly a bunch, then testing with this method and tightening them both evenly one click at a time till the binding snaps back into place instead of ejecting the boot.

Done.

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Originally Posted by Vitamin I

Now that this thread has accepted minor drift away from fwd pressure topics...

Hey FKS experts! Please see missing plastic "plug" in the joint on the right side of photo below:
Just ski it as is? Or unsafe, needs to be retired? Or just plug it with custom-shaped whittled plastic for cosmetics? Or plug it with more structural JB-stick, but in a way that won't lock up the spinning cylinder for adjusting arm length? Or what?
https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...1&d=1531502266

.

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Cosmetic. Ski it.

Only thing to consider is that it might be more likely to catch on the inside pant leg. Just mount that on the outside edge and you should be good.

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Originally Posted by revolutionrock

Yes, I did [emoji846]
I'm unsure about how much and if you should be able to pivot the turntable by moderate force? If you twist the heelpice.

Is it normal that the adjusting rods are rubbing against the ski boot? Not by much..

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Hey, yeah "moderate force". So you're not cranking it but a little bit of effort.

basically I adjust the forward pressure till the dildo snaps up, super. But then I lift up and down hard on the boot and watch my brake arms to see if any movement. I have found I want the fp dialed in to the point just past where I would see movement in the brake arms and the dildo takes a firm touch to rotate it.

look at pivots in the lift line. You will often see heels with huge slop when skier unweights a leg. That's not what you want but nobody's dying on these either.

hope that helps a bit.

I haven't skied with the pivots yet. What worries me is that the pivots seems to leave marks in my ski boots (tecnica cochise). Don't know if the cochise plastic is known to be soft? Too much pressure on these points when clicking the boot in?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b66236f00b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...f69f6dca7f.jpg

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Originally Posted by revolutionrock

I haven't skied with the pivots yet. What worries me is that the pivots seems to leave marks in my ski boots (tecnica cochise). Don't know if the cochise plastic is known to be soft? Too much pressure on these points when clicking the boot in?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b66236f00b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...f69f6dca7f.jpg

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Have a look at my earlier post in this thread at https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...09#post4975309

That point, and also...When fiddling/adjusting these bindings, I'm guessing you want the DIN already set to your final setting first. (I.E. Don't have the DIN set lower during fiddling/adjusting, or else the dildo might be moving around within its elastic range more than it will during actual skiing, yielding misleading observations during fiddling.)

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When I adjusted the forward pressure I used the method by looking at the skibrakes for movement when pulling up/down on the ski Boot. And when there is no moment in the brakes this is too much forward pressure because of the marks on the boots..

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by revolutionrock

When I adjusted the forward pressure I used the method by looking at the skibrakes for movement when pulling up/down on the ski Boot. And when there is no moment in the brakes this is too much forward pressure because of the marks on the boots..

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Maybe someone else with more FKS experience will chime in.

Until then... Without knowing the optimal solution, I know I would put highest priority on preserving my boots. So I would decrease forward pressure until it stopped chewing dents into my boots, and then maybe I'd increase DIN so that the heel would stay down (instead of the heel moving up into its elastic range and letting the brakes move down to contact the snow). I am not a fan of the large elastic travel distance in the FKS design---not sure why pretty much everyone seems to consider it a good thing.

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Hi!
I have now set the forward pressure so that the heelpice leaves no marks/dents I the boot. Now I get movement in the brakes when pulling the boot up/down (not much play).

Maybe this is too lose but it the setting that's leave no dent in the boots... [emoji58]
Feels like the cochise 130 have softer plastic (and maybe the rubber sole in the heel makes the boot little higher, not by much?)

Thanks again for your input.

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Originally Posted by Vitamin I

So I would decrease forward pressure until it stopped chewing dents into my boots, and then maybe I'd increase DIN so that the heel would stay down (instead of the heel moving up into its elastic range and letting the brakes move down to contact the snow).

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I'm not the most experienced person here, but, IME as detailed earlier in this thread, increased DIN can't make up for lack of fwd pressure. At 5'11" and 165#, I have walked out of FKS in certain situations with the DIN at 11 with too little forward pressure. I have also successfully skied a pair of bindings with the DIN turned all the way down for the summer for two days, but the forward pressure set correctly. (They worked fine at speed, but released when I tried to turn in pow at very slow speeds when the skis were submerged.) As always, YMMV but I'd be careful of decreasing the forward pressure. Grilamid lowers get chewed up more easily -- it's not just the Cochise with that issue.

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I am not a fan of the large elastic travel distance in the FKS design---not sure why pretty much everyone seems to consider it a good thing.

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Why is that? (I'm assuming you're familiar with the argument for lots of elastic travel so I won't repeat it.)

Well, the forward pressure isn't super loose. But I do get some movement in the brakes when pulling the boot up/down

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Is it known that some boots don't go well with pivots?
I have pivot dual wtr 14, last year model.
And tecnica cochise 130 2017/2018

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This is a hot topic and much discussed. If u go through threads, there is some great advice to sift through to gain confidence.

With that said...I just recently installed some white Pivot 18’s to my Wren108’s.....and can honestly say...the indicator is not lined up.....and after playing around with it...it still isn’t lined up....

Having installed hundreds of Pivots at my shop over the years, I feel confident it’s correct because of all the tips and advice given in the Pivot threads....

*It does amaze me though that Look hasn’t addressed this as a problem....The Pivot is the only binding on the market that has such a finicky forward pressure...in a high volume shop...it definitely is more time consuming to get it “right”....

When putting my boot in to test the release I found my 14’s release freely. My 18’s tend to catch the toe of the boot and it takes an extra push to release. The 18’s seem to be having issue with toe height of my Lupo TI’s.


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Originally Posted by BC.

*It does amaze me though that Look hasn’t addressed this as a problem....The Pivot is the only binding on the market that has such a finicky forward pressure...in a high volume shop...it definitely is more time consuming to get it “right”....

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Sales tell them otherwise: that they can leave it as is.

I would guess the design will not allow a FP indicator to ever be accurate. I mean really, that white tab and black relief works just like any other FP indicator on any other binding.

But I assume because when one adjusts for BSL the distance of the heel piece relative to the toe is altered (like any other binding) but also the angle of the struts holding the heel dildo also changes (unlike any other binding). My point is, adjusting for BSL and/or forward pressure incorporates an extra variable with the Pivot design.

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Originally Posted by FlimFlamvanHam

Sales tell them otherwise: that they can leave it as is.

I would guess the design will not allow a FP indicator to ever be accurate. I mean really, that white tab and black relief works just like any other FP indicator on any other binding.

But I assume because when one adjusts for BSL the distance of the heel piece relative to the toe is altered (like any other binding) but also the angle of the struts holding the heel dildo also changes (unlike any other binding). My point is, adjusting for BSL and/or forward pressure incorporates an extra variable with the Pivot design.

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Yeah, totally get your point. It is such a great binding that has such a loyal following, that there really is no need to change anything.

We've all kinda figured out ways to make sure it's "right"....its just weird to have a system (relief lining up with a tab) to check that FP is correct......but they never really line up.

Sorry...I'm OCD....I like when shit is lined up...lol

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Originally Posted by revolutionrock

Well, the forward pressure isn't super loose. But I do get some movement in the brakes when pulling the boot up/down

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I've seen the tip about brake movement. I'm setting up my Looks right now and it seems like too much forward pressure with this method. The actual tech manual states the following:

The forward pressure adjustment on the FKS/Pivot bindings may take some fine tuning/adjustment.
1. Adjust the forward pressure by the two adjustment screws at the back of the heel. Make sure to adjust the screws
on the arms evenly (see photo D)
2. Latch the boot into the binding
3. Confirm that the White/Yellow tab aligns with, or is just past the two raised features on the heel base (see photo E)
4. Grab the heel piece with your right hand and if you are able to twist/rotate the heel easily, tighten the forward
adjustment (see photo F)
a. Make sure not to over tighten the forward pressure. The forward pressure is correct when you cannot lightly
rotate the heel on the boot and the heel has a strong elastic snap
5. Confirm the elastic travel at the heel and toe. If the forward pressure is too tight, the elastic travel will be negatively
affected

I’ve read every page on this thread, because upon buying some pivots off of Vitamin I, and getting them mounted by my go to shop, I think they mounted the heels too close to the toes.

Anyway, they told me the release values were to high to sign off on a safe binding. I called BS. (I now realized they blamed a botched mount on an old pair of bindings). Upon taking them home and clicking my boots in I realized the dildo didn’t even snap all the way up, and the toe wings show a small gap in between themselves with the boot clicked in. I hadn’t read this thread before skiing but I opened up the screws in the heels to increase the length between toe and heel. They do release with various off the hill tests but feel a little sticky.

Is there a limit to how far I could back off those heel posts before I risk ripping the dildo off? Also, I assume the toe wings should show no gap?


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The arms have three knurled bands, ideally you set to the middle band, but within the three bands is the standard range of adjustment. While not ideal, you can go in further and risk notching the lug on your boot, and for backing the heels out, if you can see threads you've definitely gone too far.

I would suggest printing out a paper template and compare your mount to where the template puts the holes for your BSL, and go from there.

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Originally Posted by J_Berg

I’ve read every page on this thread, because upon buying some pivots off of Vitamin I, and getting them mounted by my go to shop, I think they mounted the heels too close to the toes.

Anyway, they told me the release values were to high to sign off on a safe binding. I called BS. (I now realized they blamed a botched mount on an old pair of bindings). Upon taking them home and clicking my boots in I realized the dildo didn’t even snap all the way up, and the toe wings show a small gap in between themselves with the boot clicked in. I hadn’t read this thread before skiing but I opened up the screws in the heels to increase the length between toe and heel. They do release with various off the hill tests but feel a little sticky.

Is there a limit to how far I could back off those heel posts before I risk ripping the dildo off? Also, I assume the toe wings should show no gap?


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by MRR11

The arms have three knurled bands, ideally you set to the middle band, but within the three bands is the standard range of adjustment. While not ideal, you can go in further and risk notching the lug on your boot, and for backing the heels out, if you can see threads you've definitely gone too far.

I would suggest printing out a paper template and compare your mount to where the template puts the holes for your BSL, and go from there.

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Picked up a few pairs of used skis this year. I get correct forward pressure, but can see parts of the last band.
Will ski, but would like more data points