^^^ But only if you're hitting the line switch. :fmicon:
Interesting. You'd think they'd be happy with the performance of both of their products...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
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^^^ But only if you're hitting the line switch. :fmicon:
Interesting. You'd think they'd be happy with the performance of both of their products...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
Was he on twin tips?Quote:
Originally Posted by LightRanger
They probably need some sort of permission to do so from the victim.
They don't need permission to share a public facebook post from a newspaper.
How stoked must he have been when the probe hit him. Wow.
Damn non-pack avalungs still sold out everwhere. Starting to wonder what the deal is.
Wilderness Sports in Dillon has one for sale last week (970) 468-5687Quote:
Originally Posted by Yonder_River
http://www.wildernessx.com/avalung-ii.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Yonder_River
Thanks, I need a large one though. Will give that store in Dillon a call though.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalated
The one they had was the Avalung Element made to attach to any pack strap, not the II made to be worn by itself. If a large II is what you are looking for, I might be able to help out. LMK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yonder_River
I've said this here before a number of times, but I've always loved my Avalung II for potential NARSIDS issues. I'll wear it inbounds in Tahoe on weekends like this coming weekend for that reason. Seems to me that it's more likely to be used "in anger" in that situation than a slide. So far gotten at least somewhat stuck in two treewells over the years, but zero unintentional slides of any note. (Obviously this is an academic comparison, still good to have no matter which problem you're looking at.)
Just read this. Props to the author about detailing his thought processes. I found that very helpful in terms of understanding what they did wrong and trying to take things away from his write-up. This stuff was particularly useful...Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalated
The bolded language seems like an argument for a fan-based pack in terms of being able to practice more. You hear people talk about it, but here's a dude who was wearing an airbag pack (granted, one he had just borrowed from a friend), was caught in a slide, didn't deploy it, and believes in hindsight that he only could have deployed it in the necessary time window of his incident if he had regularly practiced. Some food for thought.Quote:
The road was so close, I was sure I had a solid line. I even entertained the thought that I could outrun a slide on such a short pitch. I ignored the sirens reminding me that the 40-degree slope probably would slide with the weight of a skier added to the fragile slope. I ignored the fact that I was skiing into a terrain trap next to an area of cliffs without a sure line-of-sight to the bottom.
I didn’t even consider the only right answer in this dangerous situation, the only answer with a high probability for a safe descent to the road: I should have pulled my skins out of my pack, taken the time and energy to carefully skin straight back up and traverse through the trees to a much lower angled slope a few hundred yards down the pass. I guess I sometimes forget that going back up is an option. I doubt I will ever forget that again.
As I checked with Mark to make sure he was in a safe zone anchored by a tree, I bit down hard on the mouthpiece of the AvaLung I always carry. I practiced reaching for the handle to trigger the airbag on a pack I was borrowing from a friend. It was the last piece of safety equipment I had been hesitant to procure due to price. I felt more confident with the pack, which was maybe not such a good thing in hindsight.
I turned and headed out onto the fragile slope, thinking I could make it to the vantage point I had been eyeing. Almost immediately, the slope fractured and liquefied. I instinctively pointed my skis downhill to try to ride the slide out. Then the horizon disappeared as I launched over a cliff band and felt myself falling into the white room. I had no idea how far I had to fall or what was at the bottom. Before I knew what was happening, I was spread-eagled on my stomach with a heavy weight piling onto my back.
I vaguely thought the airbag pack should have floated me to the surface but realized that I hadn’t pulled the ripcord. I firmly believe now that muscle memory through regular practice is the only way to have that ripcord pulled in an emergency. There was just too much input in the moment for my mind to react properly.
You can practice with some non-fan packs by removing the cartridge. The trigger on the Mammut, for example, can be activated with or without a cartridge and has the same feel either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by LightRanger
Gotcha. Good point. I suppose you don't need to actually inflate the bag to do drills.
I think they are two disconnected thoughts... muscle memory makes sense to build.Quote:
Originally Posted by LightRanger
But I don't know that he is convinced that the pack would have ACTUALLY helped him. I'm certainly not in this situation: dumped onto road + debris dumps on top = no turbulent flow = no vertical sorting
In fact, in this rare instance, had he been sorted early, he might have ended up at the front of the flow and been dumped on the highway sooner with less snow to cushion him from the pavement and more snow dumped on top of him. The rare slide where an airbag would result in a deeper burial.
I can see why using a borrowed one. Maybe for first time? Or maybe just infrequently? It might have not been his first reaction to pull the trigger?Quote:
Originally Posted by LightRanger
Yeah, I don't think he necessarily is convinced of that either. But I do suspect he included the thought process on that for our edification. Interesting point on the lack of potential Brazil nut effect in this one. Though if you regularly ride with an airbag pack (I don't, yet), I would think that the goal is to get the muscle memory for deployment down to as little time as possible, and you're not going to be calculating potential Brazil nut effects while desperately trying to pull the trigger. :smile:
That's a good point too. Though I imagine it was more just the lack of muscle memory/forgetfulness rather than thinking maybe the slide wasn't serious enough to warrant forcing his buddy to refill the canister. (I think that was your point?)Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
Nope not my point at all?Quote:
Originally Posted by LightRanger
He wasn't used to wearing one. And at critical moment he forgot he was.
Quote:
it was more just the lack of muscle memory/forgetfulness
Oh. Yes. For sure. I sort of made that point as an aside in parentheses above, but I see now that I wasn't being clear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightRanger
In this case I really don't think the air bag would have helped much anyway- he was carried a short distant and off a drop into the deposition zone face down. The bag should help to float you to the top when the slide is moving but once you come to rest, the bag wont elevate you above the debris pounding down around and on you.
Yeah. That makes sense. Summit made that point above too. I'd still be curious though, in the case of the BD bag where it auto-deflates after a set amount of time to create an air pocket if it would have helped. Just spitballing. Obviously no way to be sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mofro261
i had no idea the bags were so noisy
it's not the bag, its the avalung that is noisy- sounds like a duck call when you breathe through it.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyeaster
oh, duh. thx. i thought the bag was inflating in sections or something, which didn't seem desirable.
Airbags are pretty loud when you inflate them though.
Agree the airbag probably wouldn't have helped in this accident even if it was deployed.
However, if we can get away from TGR gear-dorkery for a second, the #1 thing that could have prevented this accident, as the author notes, is slapping skins on and going up and around. I think most of us have probably made this mistake and skied some small questionable slope just to get down to the road/trailhead/whatever. I've gotten away with some shit on Loveland and Berthoud Passes, for sure.
Mammut packs are also designed to slowly "leak" for the same reason. Not sure if other brands work this way as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by LightRanger
I'm going to practice triggering my pack while skiing, without the canister connected, a bunch of times. I feel like a dummy for not having done this yet.
I've been commenting way too much in The Slide Zone recently, but at the risk of becoming a bore, and no disrespect meant, I'd say fuck the fucking airbags and our goddamn muscle memory. Maybe spend 10 minutes per tour debriefing on what did not go wrong but could have. That would be time better spent IMHO.
Classic textbook example of fuzzy thinking. Agree that if a slope has you biting the avalung perhaps skins are a better option.
Amen brotherQuote:
Originally Posted by covert
Actually can you comment more.Quote:
Originally Posted by covert
Please.
X2Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
Ha, 10/4. I read an article the other day that says smarter people swear more. It sure makes me feel smarter, so that's nice.
I read one that said more honest people swear more. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by covert
https://phys.org/news/2017-01-links-honesty.html
^^^ x3
To be clear on my musing about the pack above. The first thing I took away from this was his comment adrenalated highlighted re hiking back up and out of danger. But given my recent thinking on buying a BD airbag pack, I found his comment on practicing interesting as well and wanted to highlight it.
Just read this. A post-incident story well told.
The focus on self-reflection and thought processes (heuristics) is particularly useful.
I don't mean to shit on the idea of practicing with our gear. It just makes me a little crazy when we get distracted by the shiny things in life.Quote:
Originally Posted by LightRanger
For sure. Totally get your point and agree with it.
"Both of us have practiced beacon searches but not on a regular basis. Mark was using an older beacon and had difficulty finding me quickly. Neither of us had developed the smooth muscle memory through regular practice that may have taken minutes off the rescue time."