time for a new car...

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Originally Posted by Spats

The way to save the most money, and have the most peace of mind, is to buy a reliable car brand new, and keep it until it dies. If you look at the resale on most Hondas and Toyotas, you save hardly anything by buying a couple years used.

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I'm curious: what are the numbers to support that statement? Not saying it's wrong; it just seems to run counter to most advice I've heard, which is that a car's depreciation is steepest in the first year or two. It seems like the best choice would be to buy a two-year-old Honda or Toyota. The original owner has taken the depreciation hit, yet the car is still sound of mind and body.

No?

P.S. Altagirl: if reliability is a concern, I'd advise against a VW or Audi. I understand the appeal of the Passat, and the A4, but friends of mine who once owned 'em have sworn to never, ever own 'em again. Do some research online re: reliability...particularly in the sometimes-hard-to-diagnose electrical components. Ouch!

EDITED for Altagirl vs -chic. Sorry!

Now I LOVE my Tacoma, but I just got done taking a cruise in a brand spankin new GMC Denali. It was sweet. Real sweet.

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Originally Posted by Dingo

It seems like the best choice would be to buy a two-year-old Honda or Toyota. The original owner has taken the depreciation hit, yet the car is still sound of mind and body.

No?

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Sure, but you'll NEVER know what that "original" owner did to the car during the first 2 years. It's pretty easy to cover up some serious shit with very little effort. I know I'd hate to be the guy that ended up buying the 2000 Audi A4 I traded in.

AG, CPO is a great way to go used, I'm in a CPO BMW right now and have had 0 issues with the car or dealing with the CPO coverage. I'd buy CPO again without hesitation, but you do pay a premium for it and it's tough to say if you get past some of that depreciation hit or not. I guess it depends on the car. I know in my case I saved close to $14,000 buying a CPO car with 16,000 miles on it vs new.

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Originally Posted by Spats

The way to save the most money, and have the most peace of mind, is to buy a reliable car brand new, and keep it until it dies. If you look at the resale on most Hondas and Toyotas, you save hardly anything by buying a couple years used.

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Here's the thing - the two cars that I've owned for a long time were:

Eagle Talon - I bought it with maybe 40k miles for like $5000 and drove it HARD (in Germany - over 100mph probably 50% of the time) to 178000 miles and it required no maintenance, ever. I got in an accident and had to replace the taillight. Brake pads, a new battery, and tires and that was all I ever did to it. It died shortly thereafter, but I never had a problem with that car, and I've never heard a person on earth rave about the reliability of a Talon.

But everyone does go on and on about how reliable Subarus are. And I love the way mine drives, but I've had problems with the clutch (detailed earlier), an electrical wiring problem where the wiring going through the headliner/roof section was cut (how the hell does that happen?), no kidding like 15 replaced headlights and tailllights - like every time I get the oil changed. Power steering leak, multiple problems over the years with the ABS system (EXPENSIVE TO FIX). Rear windshield wiper doesn't work. Interior dome light hasn't worked in years. 3 or 4 sets of spark plug wires. I've been in to have them tell me what the "check engine" light is on for more times than I can remember. I got the timing belt replaced at the dealer and they didn't tighten things back up correctly so something fell apart, the belt started skipping and I had to bring it back in so they could fix all that shit. And in the past few weeks the return spring on the brake pedal was causing the brake light to come on after I parked it and making the battery go dead in the middle of the night. It was an easy (and free) fix once we figured out what it was - but 2 mornings of dead batteries and 87 people coming into the office telling me my taillights were on for a week or so was a PITA. I LOVE the way it drives, but damn, it nickel and dimes me to death.

I guess my point is that the cars people think of as reliable or unreliable don't all end up living up to their reputation. I think buying something with a good warranty is probably more important to me, considering my personal experience.

Anyway - while I used to be looking for cars I was going to drive for 200,000 miles, this is going to be a little different. Since it's for sales and stuff, I'm envisioning buying something that I'm pretty much going to drive until the warranty is up at most and then get something else. I think I'm still going to consider CPO vehicles as well as new - whatever still has a good warranty left and is in good shape.

And I just don't like the appearance of the Pilot. Too much like a forester crossed with a minivan. And I had to learn to drive in a minivan and I'm not ever planning on driving one again... :D

ag, have you checked out the NISSAN MURANO?
it sounds like what you want.

sounds like you got a Suby w/ issues. :confused: :confused:
not all are like that. i got a few.

you want a decent ride to show high dollar properties.
do not go w/ the audi. or the VW.

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Originally Posted by sanjuanworm

ag, have you checked out the NISSAN MURANO?
it sounds like what you want.

sounds like you got a Suby w/ issues. :confused: :confused:
not all are like that. i got a few.

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Actually - that looks pretty nice. I'll have to go and test drive one of those.

And I know my Suby situation is not the norm. I'm still considering another one - I just want to check out my other AWD options.

Sounds like you just got unlucky with the Subaru. I'm pushing 80K on a 2000 Outback that my Dad bought new and we've put in approximately $0 for unscheduled (and non-accident related) work.

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Originally Posted by Jumper Bones

I know newer Volvos are Ford-owned/sourced...but Subies are GM owned/shared (Saab 9-2x Saabaru anyone?), you tell me which is the worse corporate parent.

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The difference is GM is rebadging Subarus as Saabs, ford is rebadging ford/mazda parts as Volvos. And the rebadged ford parts are coming from a car that costs 50% of the S40/V50 - the Focus. Then there's moves like this Ford tells Volvo to de-emphasize roof strength they may still be good cars, it's not a bet I'd place relative to the competition.

is your Suby a wagon?
whatcha want for it?
sunroof?

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Originally Posted by sanjuanworm

is your Suby a wagon?
whatcha want for it?
sunroof?

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1997 Impreza Outback Sport Wagon. Green w/gray cloth interior. No sunroof. $4,800 (which is the blue book value in fair condition - I'd say it's at the upper end of the "fair" description). It works fine - it's just the little piddly crap I mentioned, I just had the emissions and safety done yesterday when I did my annual registration. There's some paint chips, little rust spots (only on the roof for some reason) etc. It has snow tires on it that are still in good condition. No alloy wheels but I have the hubcaps that came on it in a cabinet in the garage that I can put back on - I just painted the steel rims black.

My brothers Nissan Murano is styley.I won the top award in it's class.

If you want to wait a few months, I'm planning on getting a new car and selling/trading-in my old one. It's a 2001 BMW 325xi manual. It has 60,000 miles on it now (a little long-in-the-tooth, I know). There have been no major mechanical issues, save a recall, and it's got new summer and winter tires too. Even though it's not the most advanced AWD system around, with snow tires on, I haven't missed a pow day in 3 years here, as you know. ;)

EDIT: And as for other cars, I'd avoid VW's, turbocharged Audis, and Range Rovers, and Volvos. They are quite unreliable. And avoid Dave Strong VW in SLC--they sold my friend a car that had been in an accident with frame damage and did not inform him of the car's history.

EDIT 2: Note that Subaru is below average in both of these surveys. Your situation may not be unique--my GF has a Forester and it's been nickel-and-diming her too.


2005 JD Power 90-day quality survey
http://www.jdpower.com/presspass/pr/images/2005069b.gif

2004 JD Power 3-year dependability survey
http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/ima...04055bfull.gif

Another tip: If you can wait until the end of summer (the end of the car-model year) to buy your new car, you may have a little more haggling power. There seem to be good incentives at that time.

But if summer is your busy sales season in your line of work, you're probably looking to get into something ASAP.

Any special work-related tax deductions you can take on your new car? Wasn't there something about deducting the whole damn thing if you buy a car over x-1000's of pounds? (Not advocating buying a monster truck, here, just wondering...)

EDIT: Here's a link on the vehicle purchase tax deduction.

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Originally Posted by Beaver

100000miles and already a PITA? You may want to consider a Toyota; my last went 250000mi trouble free before I traded it in.

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When is the replacement engine arriving for your latest Toyota. Heh.

Let me know when you want to drive my WRX.

wrx all the way!!!!

(can I have your old car?, pleeeeeese!)

If you're selling $600,000 houses a WRX is NOT the way to go.

4wd Diesel Excursion.

Your clients will love it.

You don't have to tell them you run it on biodiesel if you don't want to.

Only downside is that they don't make any of them with handshakers.

Engine will go 250+ easy.

Rattlers hold their value MUCH BETTER than gassers.

Edit- Maybe a liberty diesel.

In case you were wondering, I think your next vehicle should be diesel powered. :) ;)

Foggy- No TDI 4Motion, if they did that's what the russian's commuter would be.

I highly recommend getting an online subscription to Consumer Reports so you can check the reliability record of any car you're looking at, new or used. It's about $4/month or $25/year.

The actual ratings vs. the reputation of a specific car can be surprising, and vary a lot within a brand.

If it fits your price range, what about an Infiniti G35X sedan?

MSRP 32,899(new), 3.5L V6, 280hp, AWD

http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/infin..._overview.html

agree with others that a used vw/audi is probably not the best choice. I currently lease an audi allroad and although i love it, i am done with audi. i don't live close to a warranty repair shop so i am biased (got a drive 1-2 hours to get a tune), but also when something does, and it will, go wrong they are a pain and expensive to fix. gotta order the parts need the car for two days, etc... Also, Audi is currently in the process of changing the terms of their warranty and less and less of what probably should be covered, is. In addition, they are changing the terms for CURRENT warranties, fuckers!!!!

on the infiniti line, could also consider the lexus sedan all wheel drive. a co-worker who lives in lake tahoe owns one and says it has never failed to get him where he needs to go on all but the biggest snow days (when clearance becomes a major issue, then we all have problems) he has lived here for something like 30 years and says it is the best AWD system he has ever owned. also, obviously a great client car.

also, if you decide to go new and expensive, consider leasing and don't put one penny down. kind of nice to get in a brand new car without writing any major checks (except for the check you write every month for several hundred dollars).

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Originally Posted by 778skier

If it fits your price range, what about an Infiniti G35X sedan?

MSRP 32,899(new), 3.5L V6, 280hp, AWD

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And here's the downside:

"Test '04 G35x models averaged 15.8-17.3 [mpg]"
taken from http://auto.consumerguide.com/Auto/N.../Act/Roadtest/

Maybe you can afford the car, but can you afford the gas?

If you're willing to look at a FWD car, check out the Acura TSX. Excellent car for the money (~$25K).

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Originally Posted by lemon boy

4wd Diesel Excursion.

Your clients will love it.

You don't have to tell them you run it on biodiesel if you don't want to.

Only downside is that they don't make any of them with handshakers.

Engine will go 250+ easy.

Rattlers hold their value MUCH BETTER than gassers.

Edit- Maybe a liberty diesel.

In case you were wondering, I think your next vehicle should be diesel powered. :) ;)

Foggy- No TDI 4Motion, if they did that's what the russian's commuter would be.

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Yes, because particulate matter is what seeds SNOW. Pollution is good!

I know you want a manual trasmission, which I don't believe you can get with the Toyota Highlander. My parents have one and they have had zero problems with it, save having to replace a tailight bulb at 60k. They don't drive it like old people either. The Awd is better than the fancy stuff that the new top of the line Ford Explorers have, read Land Rovers as well, same parts unless you are hauling a big boat or trailer. It gets fairly decent gas mileage (30 mpg on highway)and has lots or room for whatever. I think it looks nice too.

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Originally Posted by cj001f

VW 4motion is the same as Audi's Quattro.Same corporate family, and car's like Passat and A4 are passed on the same platform.

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If i recollect it right, this is not true.

Pre 05 Passats and audis have Torsen 4wd sysytem (due to the straight mounted engine wich permits it) and golfs,Transporters and new passat
has Haldex (4Motion) 4wd system, since their engines are mounted sideways.

Golfs and Passats used to have problems in the beginning of their production runs, but theese last 2-3 years (2002-2005) should have quite
little problems, at least to newer statistics.

Another car that have been mentioned here,Honda CRV has gotten good word too.3 of my friends have it,and none of them have had any,any,problems with them on theese first 2-3yrs.

I had a Jeep Liberty 2003(cherokee here..) that was literally plagued with problems.It was in the shop for 12 times in the 2 1/2 years that i had it.
Last straw was that the clutch started acting out 1 year ago,importer refused to rapair it because they could not "reproduce the problem".
Now,half a year after the varranty went (here the jeeps have only 2yr warranties, not the 5 / 7yrs that you have in the states) the clutch AND
engine gave up. After 65.000km!!!!
Luckily i managed to get the consumer protection offices on my side,and i didnt have to pay for the 5.000-6.000 euro repair bills.

The next day i got the car out from the shop, i went to a VW dealer and is
now a happy owner of a VW Transporter 2.5TDI AWD van.
Lets see when the problems start with that..

But in the meanwhile, i can enjoy the 50mpg diesel consuption,smoke some volvos in the traffic lights and enjoy all my new friends,that require some moving.

But yes, consider a car that you have a warranty with.
Youll live a lot more worry free life with that.

A 2001 BMW X5 3.0 with 30,000 miles might squeak in around your price range, and most have 100,000 mile warranties. I bought mine used two years ago, after a nasty accident that totaled another rig. The biggest selling point for me at that time was the X5's stellar safety ratings. It has turned out to be the best car decision I've ever made. My situation may be similar to yours, having to instill some level of confidence in clients yet living in the mountains full time and needing a snow and fire-road worthy ride with enough space for people and gear. The car has been virtually trouble-free (hope I didn't just jinx it), is indescribably fun to drive (automatic for traffic jams and Steptronic for your manual jones) and the 3.0 is as powerful as you could want (ignore the bigger engine model with its plus-$10k price tag). The only down sides are 1) it gets about 22 miles to the gallon, which is way better than most SUVs and many cars on the road but quite a bit worse than lots of other options; and 2) the big hit to your dirtbag reputation.

You can probably mitigate #2. My X5 lives in a constant state of filth from wallowing in snow, dirt and mud, and its look is improved by the permanent baked on ghosts of hundreds of bugs, may they RIP. On the rare occasion it gets a bath in the city, the drive home gets rid of that nasty shine before anyone catches me riding clean. If you're really worried you could maybe dock the car with its kind up at Park City and hitch a ride all the way back to Alta, or at least claim you're just car-sitting for a client. Better yet, hang on to the skin of your '97 Subie and hide the X5 inside before heading to the hill.

The new Lexus RX330 Hybrid would be the dope. Your savings in gas will offset some of the purchase expense (calculators are online somewhere) and it will certainly look the part. They are lower than 4Runners, so they won't flip so easy and their 4wd is aiight. Plus, Lexus is a Toyota product, so it should last a few dozen years.
Downside: no manual tranny and bling-spensive compared to other cars on your list.

Personally, I am driving a 10 year old Lexus ES300 with no problems, and saving for a Syncro Westfalia. Lexus should last for a while longer and the Syncro will get me to the trailhead on them hard driving days.

just pull the trigger on the new Suby XT 2.5 Outback wagon. It's got a sweet engine, looks nice for clients, and handles like a Suby in snow/rain. Do the research, get cost, offer a few $ over cost, finance at 0 - 3% per year w/trade-in as down payment. then you can write your car paymnets off at the end of the year, as you are in sales and need/use this car for work.

or. if you say you want to drive a few yrs and then trade-in so you are always under warranty, lease the car. just use it for work and getting to the hill, no road-trips, and you can stay within the mileage alowance.

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Originally Posted by Platinum Pete

The new Lexus RX330 Hybrid would be the dope. Your savings in gas will offset some of the purchase expense (calculators are online somewhere)

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Maybe. It certainly doesn't for the Civic Hybrid. $5k premium for 50% better mileage. At current gas prices 10 years. I keep wondering if you couldn't invest $5k somewhere else and do more environmental good.

Just to add my .02 to the conversation, My wife and I bought a Chrysler Pacifica AWD last year, It has been a great car, along the lines of the Murano or the Lexus RS330. Downside is they do not have manual trans, but do have the autostick, clutchless deal. We went with it because it had more cargo space than the Suby had. They can be picked up new for about $30k witch is not too bad considering others in its class.

Was the Infinity FX35/FX45 ever an option? I think they look sweet, and are AWD. Also, howzabout an Audi Quattro (My ride) or a Volvo XC?

http://www.autotrend.com/pic/9956.jpg

So here's the latest:
So I'm thinking leasing might make sense, due to tax deductions and the fact that I won't be putting a ton of miles on it - it's all local driving, etc. Lower payment, get rid of it when the full warranty is done, and the dealer will cover all maintenance except brake pads, including oil changes and everything else.

So I went out to check what the deal is w/leasing and today I test drove:

BMW X3

Nissan Murano

Volvo V50

X3 is nice. I like the size/utility and it drives like a car instead of an SUV. Gas mileage isn't great, but you can get one with a manual transmission which is a plus for me in that a. I want it, b. you get better gas mileage, and c. it costs $1500 less than an automatic. Drives well, but isn't super fast and I don't have the money to splurge on the 3.0 so I'm looking at the 2.5. Though for some reason I had to test drive an automatic w/tiptronic. Meh.

The sales guy types some crap in his calculator and says yeah, we can get you in one of these for a lease for say... $530 a month. Hello? I did the lease calculator on the BMW website last night and it said $366 a month. (They have 3 manual transmission X3's in stock, all of which are about $32500.) He says oh... Yeah, but we have to add taxes. So what's $366 w/taxes? $382/mo. Okay, I can see that, maybe. Let's write that down for now and I'll think about it.

So I went across the street to the Nissan dealer. Test drove a Murano - which has very nice leather, heated seats and steering wheel, blah blah blah... Salesperson acted like I was from another planet when I said BMW would cover scheduled maintenance, but checked with his manager who said if BMW was doing it, they'd do it too. He started at $450/mo but said they'd beat BMW's $382/mo and include my choice of color and leather seats. I can build it out of the brochure whatever I want and they'd have it in 2 days. BMW said I take what's on the floor or I get it maybe in September. But the Murano does not have a manual transmission option. Pretty nice - drives about the same as the BMW but I can get a little more for my money and I get what I want now.

Next stop Volvo dealer. I drool over the big one, which is out of my price range at 44k, and look at the V50. I really like the look, and the price is back in the right range. $36k, but with incentives and whatever, more like $32k. Manual transmission is an option. (Yay!) They don't have one in stock (Boo!) Test drove one and it's SOOOOO sweet. Way more power and accelleration than the others (well the Legacy turbo was pretty good), handles beautifully, but the really standout thing is just how perfectly the seats hold you. Love it. Makes it 10x more fun to drive just with that alone. Love the look of the interior - no crap all over the place, very clean. Love the look of the exterior. AWD, Plenty of room, roof racks, seats fold down flat, Volvo covers all maintenance standard for 3 years or 36k miles whether I lease or buy. They said they'd be competitive w/BMW and $380/mo would be doable. Only problem is finding a manual transmission - he's going to look and call me tomorrow. He said he saw one a few months ago, but someone from Vegas came to pick it up.

He said they have volvo loaner cars - if I need any maintenance, even for an oil change - I come in, drop it off, take a loaner car and bring it back when they're done, no sitting and waiting or shuttle rides or any of that crap. So I see on the charts SLCFreshies posted they might have more than average problems, but if they're fixing it and giving me a loaner car and it's not coming out of my pocket, I'm inclined not to worry about that so much. Volvo also gets good gas mileage - way better than the Murano or X3.

So I have an appointment w/my accountant on Friday to ask about the tax benefits of lease vs. buy, among other things, but the general consensus at my office was that buying is great if you're paying cash, but if you're financing, not driving it too many miles, and replacing after a few years, leasing makes more sense tax wise because you can deduct the lease payment plus mileage. Obviously depends on the individual situation yada yada... hence the appointment w/the CPA.

Coming in a little late with this, but my wife bought her car in January by going through carbargains.com. It ended up being pretty sweet. You tell them what kind of car you want and they solicite bids from several dealers. We ended up getting her 2005 BMW 325i for something like $1,000 under invoice. You do have to pay for the service, but it ended up being worth it in my book.

Even if you don't go through something like Car Bargains make sure you know the invoice price of the car you want. That way you know what the dealer is paying for the car. A good source for info like this is edmunds.com. They'll also have info on whether there are any incentives which you may or may not find out from the dealer.

Here's something nobody's suggested. The Toyota Matrix. Good gas milage, Toyota reliability, 4 wheel drive, comfortable front and back, and you can buy two of them for what you would pay for for a piece of shit, trouble waiting to happen, bmw or Volvo (Ford). Plus they look cool too! My last Toyota went 305,000 miles in 20 years... never stranded me, never in the shop. Not once!

Volvo does not equal piece-of-shit. Something people neglect to note when they hear about Ford using the Focus as the basis for volvo cars, is that there is a different europe-only Focus, which is considerably more upscale than the US model.

Every person has their likes and tastes...

Sorry, I meant to say piece of poo poo.

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Originally Posted by maddog

Here's something nobody's suggested. The Toyota Matrix. Good gas milage, Toyota reliability, 4 wheel drive, comfortable front and back, and you can buy two of them for what you would pay for for a piece of shit, trouble waiting to happen, bmw or Volvo (Ford). Plus they look cool too! My last Toyota went 305,000 miles in 20 years... never stranded me, never in the shop. Not once!

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Hey, I get where you're coming from. 6 months ago I fully intended on keeping my subaru for... forever, basically. And that used to be my criteria for buying a car - spend very little money for something preferably used but reliable, reasonably fun to drive and useful for carrying bikes and skis; pay it off fast and drive it until it's dead, because that seemed like the cost effective way of doing things. This is a totally new purchasing decision process for me - involving business considerations, tax deductions, and plans to not keep whatever I buy for more than about 3 years, before the warranty runs out. I've never even owned a car that had a factory warranty on it before, if that says anything.

I will head over to a Toyota dealer though to check out what they have though, seeing as how much I dig the comparison shopping anyway. There are still a few things I still want to look at, but so far I really dig the Volvo.

If you're thinking about the X3 don't test drive the X5 because there's no turning back once you do...BTW the X5 weighs 6005 lbs which means it qualifies for George Effing W Bush's commercial vehicle tax deduction. Basically I'm deducting about a $10k per year depreciation and so driving it for the net cost of a car 1/2 to 2/3 the price. I did hear a rumor that particular deduction's going away, though. Good luck--

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Originally Posted by Monique

If you're thinking about the X3 don't test drive the X5 because there's no turning back once you do...BTW the X5 weighs 6005 lbs which means it qualifies for George Effing W Bush's commercial vehicle tax deduction. Basically I'm deducting about a $10k per year depreciation and so driving it for the net cost of a car 1/2 to 2/3 the price. I did hear a rumor that particular deduction's going away, though. Good luck--

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That's a sweet deduction! Do you need to use it for work-related stuff, or can you just buy that, and add it to your itemized deductions?

I thought about getting one but not sure how it would hold up to 35k miles / year driving, with Bring My Wallet maintenance costs.

If I had to take a shot in the dark, I'd guess that the "commercial" vehicle tax deduction (if there is such a thing), is probably limited to "work related stuff".