I use to have a huge insomnia issue.
Now I have no Internet at home besides phone and no TV. That improves things about 75%. Breaking the cycle also helps and now it's rare I get less than 7 hours.
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I use to have a huge insomnia issue.
Now I have no Internet at home besides phone and no TV. That improves things about 75%. Breaking the cycle also helps and now it's rare I get less than 7 hours.
If left to your own devices, not taking a sleep aid, what time would you fall asleep and wake or do you simply not sleep? Wondering if it's a case of your circadian rhythms being off?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phill
Having suffered for as long as you have I'm sure you've tried all the usual things like, no naps, dim lights in the evening, no stimulates after a certain time of day, avoid exercise/eating close to bed time, investing in a good mattress etc. etc.
Hutash had good advice - go to a sleep specialist rather than throw more drugs at the issue before you explore other options.
Melatonin givs me teh horrid dreamz, Everybody dies in a gruesome manner.
Interesting the way the "addictive", "habit forming" and "dependance" thing can spun. Heroin is addictive, physically and mentally. Nicotine same thing. Pot is not "addictive" in one sense but I sure as hell am addicted to the resulting feeling after smoking. I could see someone being "addicted" to finally getting some sleep. So could it be said that the result of taking Ambien is addictive?
Cronic insomniac here for years. I've had to mix things up to get any sort of quality sleep, sometimes valium/xanax but have found that indica is as effective as either of the former. Nothing has ever worked for me for more then a few weeks and I'm back where I started. Guess I don't need more then 3 hours I night.
Then I'm addicted to taking dumps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gcooker
Maybe, although I think what's going on here is that some people are applying a loose definition of "addiction." I am certainly no expert but, despite AW's false assertion, I have done past research on the matter. The experts I've consulted say that Ambien is not addictive, although, as with many drugs, some people might develop some level of dependence on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gcooker
Here's another source: Can You Become Addicted to Ambien? . . . Experts say no -- if its used as directed.
To make you feel better I edited the post to note the qualifier that my statement is per my consultation with 3 MDs and other sources.Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronWright
No. That is a false statement. I don't put a drug in my body without first doing some research, which I have, including but not limited to discussing the specific issue with 3 MDs, each of whom advise that Ambien is not addictive.Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronWright
If you want to apply your personal definition of "addiction," then all sorts of things are addictive. As I said in my follow up post, questions of addiction often beg the definition of "addiction" and "dependency."
Question to the insomniacs: How much time do you spend either in front of the computer or television before going to bed (or even in bed?) I have read several articles that say the light coming from a monitor fucks up your sleep cycle because it's basically daylight.
Also - once you fall asleep could you get in a full 8 hours (if your schedule allowed) or do you wake up every hour or two?
Tipp is your icon from something like an international school for film and broadcasting? It looks like something I saw today and that's all I can think of that could match.
I found it on the internet searching "TV Cameraman." Shit, I've had this icon since the PowMag days.Quote:
Originally Posted by abraham
Like Ambien?Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Steve
So, again you post a link, that link says Ambien isn't addictive if used as directed, but the next paragraph says that not using as directed can set you up for serious addiction. I said this earlier in this thread. Oxycontin isn't addictive if used as directed. The problem is that a lot of people don't follow directions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Steve
This is exactly what I thought, you use Ambien and it makes you feel better to believe that you are taking a drug that is non-addictive. Maybe you do only use it occasionally and for just a few days, good for you. Apparently there are millions of people who don't or can't.
Addiction, dependency and abuse are all intricately intertwined. I'm not using my "personal definition". Are the "experts" that you consulted doing research in addiction/dependency or involved in the manufacture of zolpidem? Just because you talked to 3 MDs doesn't mean they're experts about this drug.
Aren't you retired? Stop being a lawyer for now, you don't have to "win" every discussion. You're a smart guy but your attempts at character assassination make you look petty.
Most MDs just spout back what the insert says. Big pharma is a fucking scam and america is in full bore. Prescription pill abuse is rampant in the states and most times leads down a much darker path. Wealthy to poor doesn't matter. Big pharma wants you to take pills they will make it as easy as they can.
I too suffer from what I guess would be called insomnia combined with other stuff I'm sure. It sucks. Have not gone the med route yet. ADHD probably has a part for me.
Good luck with whatever you choose and I hope you get some sleep. I don't begrudge anyone their choice pills or otherwise. Its a personal choice.
Character assassination? This started with you attacking me.
Correct. Ambien can be misused and some people have adverse reactions to it. But that doesn't make it addictive. Words have meanings. American Society of Addiction Medicine: Short Definition of Addiction:Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronWright
ASAM Long definition of "addiction" is here.Quote:
Addiction is a primary, chronic disease of brain reward, motivation, memory and related circuitry. Dysfunction in these circuits leads to characteristic biological, psychological, social and spiritual manifestations. This is reflected in an individual pathologically pursuing reward and/or relief by substance use and other behaviors.
Addiction is characterized by inability to consistently abstain, impairment in behavioral control, craving, diminished recognition of significant problems with one’s behaviors and interpersonal relationships, and a dysfunctional emotional response. Like other chronic diseases, addiction often involves cycles of relapse and remission. Without treatment or engagement in recovery activities, addiction is progressive and can result in disability or premature death.
I didn't attack you, I said you were wrong and that used outside of prescribed directions and according to the drug fact sheet that Ambien is addictive. You claimed I was lying or making shit up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Steve
Everything in that definition points to Ambien being addictive if used improperly.
You're wrong, just because you don't like me doesn't make that not true. Your last link "supporting" your stance says that zolpidem is addictive if used improperly. Is the article now wrong?
I don't like you? I don't even know you. Hell, if we ever met I might like ya.
I disagree. It's a stretch to shoehorn Ambien use into any part of that definition. But "everything?" Nah. That definition adopts the modern neurotransmitter theory of addiction as disease, which AFAIK is the consensus definition in the medical and scientific community. AFAIK, Ambien has never been associated with "brain reward, motivation, memory and related circuitry," nor "individual pathologically pursuing reward and/or relief by substance use and other behaviors," nor "impairment in behavioral control, craving, diminished recognition of significant problems with one’s behaviors and interpersonal relationships, and a dysfunctional emotional response," nor have I ever heard that Ambien use being "progressive and result[ing] in disability or premature death."Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronWright
Feel free to educate me with evidence that Ambien use fits within this definition.
My reading: Steve is shrill and defensive. Aaron is a bit aggressive but is to the point. I am left wondering why Steve is willing to go to the mat in defense of Ambien.
Maybe if they both spent less time arguing about stupid shit on the internet they would sleep better. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman
No that doesn't work.
It's addicting though, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman
I've never had trouble sleeping and never had insomnia. I don't have narcolepsy but I can sleep just about anywhere and anytime.Quote:
Originally Posted by char
I do feel for folks that suffer from insomnia, my ex-wife and one of my kids suffer from it and it's a tough thing to deal with.
Fuck the drugs- just lose a layer and open the bedroom windows.
I don't know what MD pissed in your Cheerios, but this is bullshit. Most MDS spout back what they learn from years of medical school, hundreds of hours of CE, countless hours reading textbooks and journals, and applying reason to the extensive information in package inserts, not to mention a hell of a lot of day to day practice experience. It is fucking hard work to stay medically current and relevant. Not all MDS do, but most put a hell of a lot of effort into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidog
But hey, you read something on the innertubes, you are the expert.
All I know is I wake up a lot around 2-3 am and can not fall back to sleep. Eating a THC muffin helps but I do wake up pretty groggy. Maybe I will just take a few hits off my wife's vape an hour before bed and see how that works for me.
I can see how dangerous it is to keep pills in the bed side table. I needed a good nights sleep so started with 2.5mg Atvian and 5mg Ambien at 10:30 didn't work. 11:30 I had 1 more Atvian and at 12:30 another and with that I was out.
Waking up was hell this morning but a coffee, concentra and a bagel and I feel like a million bucks. Tomorrow I'm going to the shrink to try something else since Atvian isn't doing shit
Sorry I just don't see it this way. To some degree yes they do their best to stay current, but it seems nearly impossible. I dont think MDs are trying to be evil, but I think they still lean towards writing a script and its likely the one that gets them some benefit.Quote:
Originally Posted by hutash
In my eyes big pharma is too powerful.
God what a bunch of pot heads on here. Weed never made me that sleepy, infact it always made me anxious.
The Ambien when it was working was the best thing to happen to me. Took it and rolled off to sleep, maybe with a cool hallucination or two.
The Atvian makes my body feel healthy but my mind is still going 1000mph
Ive had good experiences in the past with Xanax for sleeping on planes. 2mg on the Tarmac and I wake up in the immigration queue. The length of the effect and the zombie like state it leaves me in is the reason I've been wary to try it for daily use.
With much sadness I've stopped drinking coffee at night. Eating early seems to help some.
I need to start exercising more. But I found that night time exercise made my insomnia worse.
Same with sex. In fact on the rare occasion that I'm actually sleeping medicated or and my partner wakes me up I know I won't get to sleep that night.
Alcohol en utter excess seems to work but doesn't seem helpful and is never worth the hang over
Are you actually recommending an anti-psychotic for sleep? That seems quite ill advised.Quote:
Originally Posted by narc
I had some clients on seroquel, if you want to sit in a corner and drool on yourself, seems like a good choice.
From a fone
yeah pot heads & pill poppers, what does that say about life ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phill
definatley no coffee or black tea after 3pm or I will be awake
I wake up more at night if I'm not tired enough from doing exercise, when I do I pick up a book which takes my mind off the fact I'm not sleeping, i think it stops the anxiety, more often than not my eyes close, I turn off the light go to sleep, if I still don't get to sleep ... i got the book read
Keep wondering because that's not what I did. My quibble with Aaron is about his loose definition of "addiction." Addiction is a serious and profound disease, and it does no good to throw around the term to describe other things.Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman
Op have you tried counting sheep?
What did our great grandpa's do when they couldn't get good sleep?
They couldn't whine on the Internet and take drug cocktails.
Harden the fuck up and build something with your hands made of steel and brawn.
I dozed off somewhere during Steve and Aaron's argument.
Steve, when lay people talk about addiction, most of the time they're talking about addiction, dependence and abuse, one or all of them. I would say that unless your talking to a professional to make a statement that a drug isn't "addictive" does no good. Addiction, dependence and abuse are serious and profound problems. I'm not the only one who saw this as going to bat for Ambien. I would be willing to bet that if you didn't take Ambien then this would be a non-issue for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Steve
Harden the fuck up.Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
Addiction and habit forming are the same definition on the minds of the non medical community.
You have a problem, you add a synthetic solution = problem solved. Now that problem is solved remove synthetic solution and problem becomes worse and includes withdrawal symptoms = Keep taking synthetic solution to stay normal. This perpetuates itself over and over just to maintain the new normal the drugs created. No matter what drug, caffeine, Ambien, tramadol, crack, Xanax.
Heroin isn't addictive if you take it twice a month
I'm not a physician, but it seems like "ambien/ativan doesn't work anymore" is possibly just covering up other issues causing your sleep problem. I mean, no shit that night time exercise and coffee are going to keep you awake. I use exercise as a tool to wake up and get my brain going in the morning, not as a sleep aid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phill
Go see a pro, sanitize your sleep environment, etc.
Yes I have way easy access to my medicine!Quote:
Originally Posted by flowing alpy
Of course you don't see that way, because you have no idea what you are taking about and base it on poor info you gleaned for places like this or one or two bad experiences with an MD. I agree, MDs are often too quick to Rx pills, but it is usually not entirely their fault but the foult of the system that allows them just a few minutes per patient. It would be wonderful for a GP to beable to sit down and talk with a patient for an hour and find out all the issues in their life that is affectiing their sleep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidog
MDs get little or any benefit form Rx'ing meds. The days of kick backs or getting wined and dined are pretty munch gone, and never really existed to the extent people thought. The only benefit they get is they get through more patients in a day which corporate practices are requiring by not spending the quality time good medicine dictates. It is the business model that MDs are forced into by a lot of factors that causes the Dr patient disconnect.
Get into a daily routine and follow it with military like discipline, seven days a week. Wake up at 5:30am, go for a run or hit the gym and lift weights. Have breakfast. Go to work. Cut off all caffeine drinks. Limit sugar. Don't eat any sugary food after 4pm. Dinner should be a small salad or a soup at 6:30 pm. Don't go to bed before 10:30pm. Don't spend your evening sitting on the couch. Go tune your skis or do some gardening or go for a walk. No electronics in the bedroom. Take a few drops of valerian or white chestnut extract before bed if needed.
Dr. Kirk Parsley, M.D. does good stuff on sleep. Check out his website and new product. Lots of free podcasts with him online where he gives free suggestions on getting to sleep and getting good sleep.