Printable View
rog where does the number 15 come from? last i knew it was 14.
true, but the odds of one rider skiing that path solo are pretty low.Quote:
Originally Posted by Conundrum
some quote like" Insanity amongst individuals is rare. Insanity in large groups is not." Most have not learned from Sheep Creek or any other incident since then. My theory- if it doesnt directly affect you, the lesson will not hit home.
Idaho. Sled. This is not meant to cunt tr. Just waiting for details is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by totaliboard
rog
Spot fuggin on.Quote:
Originally Posted by totaliboard
rog
i pass no judgementQuote:
Originally Posted by EK3
offer only vibes on the passing of your friends
as good people have done for me in my times of mouring
back to the experts CUNT -inually provin themselves e experts
i forgot, the slide zone isnt for sharing insight, its for critiscizing people.
Having been closely involved with more than a few incidents like this, I've found that it's best to be patient and give the victims the benefit of the doubt until you fully understand what happened. What is the hurry? Where does the instinct to form an opinion and convince others to agree with you come from? People died, the survivors and families are only beginning to mourn. Give it time, there will be plenty of time for insightful, productive discussion once all of the facts are out.
I just took down my posts. Maybe there's dissecting to be done, maybe not.
Sorry that this happened for all involved. I hope that these type of tragedies are used to prevent future incidents.
More info on the deceased, etc... http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_25...anche-colorado
RIP
PORTAGE, Wis.—Two skiers killed in a large avalanche in Colorado came from a small town in southern Wisconsin, relatives and colleagues said Monday.
Three other skiers were hospitalized following Saturday's avalanche near Leadville, Colo. Rescue crews found the two skiers' bodies Sunday afternoon near Independence Pass, about 80 miles southwest of Denver, the Lake County Sheriff's Office said.
Robert Lentz said his son, Justin Lentz of Portage, was one of those killed in the avalanche. The 32-year-old Lentz loved to ski and started when he was 5 or 6 years old, his father said. Lentz said his son "was a good kid" who worked as an electrician and was engaged to be married.
Another Portage man, Jarrard Law, 34, was also killed. Law was an information-technology expert at the Necedah Area School District, where Superintendent Larry Gierach remembered him as an "incredible man."
"Jarrard had great skills with people and was an integral part of our planning when it came to technology," Gierach said. Many staff members thought of him as a friend first and as a professional second, the superintendent said.
The school district planned to make grief counselors available to faculty and students.
Lentz and Law were close buddies who frequently went skiing, snowboarding and mountain biking together, said Joey Kindred, 28, who knew them both well.
Kindred recalled how Lentz enjoyed competing his friends with over-the-top snowboard tricks, even though he had a bad shoulder that would pop out of its socket every time he crashed.
"He'd fall down so often we'd call him Man Down," Kindred said. "He'd laugh, get up and do it again. And when his shoulder popped out he'd call over to his fiancee—she's a nurse—and she'd pop it back in."
Law was always the life of a party, but he was happiest when he was in the outdoors or spending time with friends, Kindred said.
Kindred has gone skiing and snowboarding with Lentz and Law in the past. He said the two had only skied at resorts in Colorado so they wouldn't have been familiar with the back country trails.
"I just wish I could have been with them to stop them from going down those lanes," said Kindred, who used to live in Colorado.
Saturday's avalanche was the third deadly slide in Colorado in less than a week, authorities said Sunday.
Susan Matthews, a spokeswoman for the Lake County Office of Emergency Management, said seven skiers on Star Mountain near Leadville triggered the latest slide at about 5 p.m. Saturday.
"They were found near the top of the avalanche and they had beacons on, which really helped a lot," Matthews said. "The terrain there is extremely steep."
Three skiers were hospitalized with injuries that included a broken leg, a broken ankle and a possible broken rib and collapsed lung. One has since been discharged from the hospital.
The Colorado Avalanche Information Center had been warning of dangerous conditions across much of Colorado's mountains after two weeks of heavy snow that lured backcountry skiers and snowboarders to the high country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by COpow
I'd say that quote sticks out. Will be interesting to see the relative knowledge of the rest of the group once that info is out in the public.
I was pondering this trend while driving this morning.
A couple of general thoughts.
Unusual weather makes for unusual avalanche conditions, we all acknowledge that.
With the conditions we have in many places throughout the Rockies right now, most people lack the skills to mitigate the hazards that exist.
Safe skiing techniques will only mitigate the hazard to the point that one person may be caught/killed.
It is time for people to dial back their goals and aspirations for a little while until conditions improve and stick to less consequential terrain.
No, we are not getting the message out to people.
If you get the chance, read the latest TAR.
http://www.americanavalancheassociat...32_3_Cover.pdf
That quote could NOT be further from truth. Both guys had many years of BC experience!!!! That is a completely false claim!Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoMatt
This. A friend of the two victims who I know out here claims they were both experienced and educated backcountry travelers.Quote:
Originally Posted by EK3
that message will never get through without a change of culture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunion
Terrible tragedy for these men, their travel companions, friends, families and local community.
As you youngins say - vibes to all.
I do feel like there is something to this story that is not known yet. It really just does not make sense that 7 people were caught on a giant slide path late in the afternoon in high avalanche conditions. Condolences to everyone involved.
when i got in over my head a few years ago, resulting in a SAR call out, he was indeed one of the first to arrive on scene. I can't say that I felt like he got his ass there in a hurry because he needed attention---- he got there fast because in a small community there's a good chance it's one of your friends that you are going to be helping out.Quote:
Originally Posted by telemike
thanks to those who posted the sheep creek tar, and fuck me I just totally sharted Crap:cussing::o:cussing:
tick, tick, tick
I have many years bc experience but know fuck all about Colorado, I think that is what made the quote stick out. It said they weren't familiar with THAT terrain not that they weren't experienced.Quote:
Originally Posted by EK3
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronWright
12345
Maybe they weren't planning on skiing that line, but do you really have to be familiar with the terrain to say no thanks, considering the conditions? If so, you might want to rethink whether you should be in the backcountry. From events I'm familiar with 'experienced in backcountry' is thrown around WAY more often than it should be. There's also a lot of people I know, who, if they were in an accident tomorrow, many would say the same about them, even if it'd be pretty far from the truth (in my opinion). Not saying it was the case here, but the circumstances definitely makes one wonder.
"I do feel like there is something to this story that is not known yet. It really just does not make sense that 7 people were caught on a giant slide path late in the afternoon in high avalanche conditions. Condolences to everyone involved."Quote:
Originally Posted by EK3
Time will show that there is nothing more to this story apart from poor decisions and that although there was some experience it is hyperbole to indicate that there was enough back country experience in the group, especially as two of the locals only recently moved to the area when they took over the business.
and wouldn't the claim of many years experience, however valid, be thrown out the door the minute they approached the situation with the very clear and present warnings?
Well there is this too. Well said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl
I don't even have 6 friends, much less 6 other backcountry skiing friends I could get on the same 40 degree slope on a high avy danger day in mid-winter. This just makes me fucking sad.
RIP. Inexperience and experience seem to get us killed in equal measure in this game. I don't think it really even matters anymore.
well said thanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Bunion
That terrain during this type of avy danger... to manage it you have to thread a tiny fu*king needle, doesn't matter how experienced or inexperienced of a BC traveler you are, your margin of error is miniscule and right now probably more like Nonexistent.
IMHO. That looks like high stakes terrain and many calories were endeavored to get up there, not just a lazy day tour. Unless the accident happened while crossing one of the runouts lower in the valley..triggered from below. Do we know these detail yet?
Just because you do compression tests and dig a pit, it doesn't tell the story at all, just adds context to the infinite problem of the surrounding snowpack. Human decisions are made every time. This one is a head scratcher to me.
There are lessons to learn, that's what I think the spirit of the Slide Zone forum can be. Sometimes it takes harsh criticism to unearth the lesson itself. Other times it's being directly connected to the victims and survivors.
I hope the survivors can heal quickly, and the victims families can get closure.
RIP
Never did. Never will. Doesnt matter who you are, doesnt matter who you with. You are the variable. Snowpack is the control.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeStrummer
Maybe not directed at me, but I was making the point that experience/knowledge tells you not to push it and even be up there, not how to thread whatever needle (don't see how any needle could be threaded on that slope, so yeah, anyway).Quote:
Originally Posted by newbreak
Definitely not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl
Yeah, yeah, I get all that Lil Tremper. The snowpack doesn't care about your Avy 2 cert or the deposit you have down on the bouncy castle place for ypur kid's birthday. I get all that. And if I ever forget it there are plenty of dingbats around here to remind me.Quote:
Originally Posted by totaliboard
My point was more that the first question asked is always "Were they experienced?" The response then determines how they are judged by the internet clown court. Either "dumbasses" or "dumbasses that shoulda known better." I guesa I am musing why it makes any fucking difference?
Duh. Experienced = one of "the tribe". Not experienced = gaper peon who deserves to die so mountains won't be polluted by the unworthy.
Whoever it may be, it's sad that they are gone and their loved ones are grieving.
vibes to all
Sorry if this was already brought up, but I haven't seen anything.
Was the slide triggered from above or below?
Yep. I understand all that. And maybe my comment is off the mark when you know more. I get it. Maybe he's just passing along info. But first on scene out in the world is not the same as first on scene here. A bit unprofessional in my opinion, but maybe good intentions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone Star
Whatever. Does not matter much really. Two more dead ski junkies
Look, like other times this year - it ripped, big. BIG.
Safety zones, one at a time?
It really didn't matter at that point.
Take the lesson, and move on.
anymore the best predictors for avi death seem to be lots of experience, gear and at least 1 avi class!!!!! experience does not immunize against stupidity!!!!!!!!!!!
Telemike: I do what I can in the real world. I volunteer to help others. I educate to help others. I go to my main job and help others. And on this community, I don't post much anymore, but in Slide Zone I try to pass on information and opinions that I hope are helpful to others. I also try to avoid negative assumptions of others, part of my attitude I've been working on over the years. This thread (and other avalanche threads) is NOT about me, so let's end that perrenial side-discussion once and for all?
This thread is about an avalanche, learning, the victims, reflections of the community, etc.
I like newbreaks post a lot:
Any time the margin for error is smaller than the margin of uncertrainty (or certainty of danger) it is a very bad risk. The bulliten that day indicated that was the situation even for much less hazardous and exposed terrain.Quote:
Originally Posted by newbreak
I take little stock in any media claim that so-and-so was an "experienced expert." That sort of typical media coverage spawned the sardonic joke at avalanche conferces that "all the experts are dead." We do teach in classes that "avalanches don't know that you are a local and don't care about your avalanche education."Quote:
Just because you do compression tests and dig a pit, it doesn't tell the story at all, just adds context to the infinite problem of the surrounding snowpack. Human decisions are made every time. This one is a head scratcher to me.
There are lessons to learn, that's what I think the spirit of the Slide Zone forum can be. Sometimes it takes harsh criticism to unearth the lesson itself. Other times it's being directly connected to the victims and survivors.
I hope the survivors can heal quickly, and the victims families can get closure.
RIP
I do take some stock in someone like EK3 posting and giving his impression relating to the victims backgrounds. I am puzzled on this one... the human factors that must have been at play considering the conditions and warnings? But should I be puzzled? We cannot erase human nature through awareness. Conditions? I remember listening to Ian McCammon presenting on avalanche education, decision making traps, and missed signs back in 2003. ALP TRUTH exists as a mneumonic checklist because those were the clues PRESENT that people MISSED before dying. The same for FACCETS.
As a community, as ski partners, as avalanche educators, we cannot hope to eradicate mistakes and deaths. But we can try very hard to reduce it through awareness of knowledge and a culture of good practices, communication, and thought.
I will still be keen to hear the details of this incident.
Let's hope it was an unfortunate egress at the end of a long day, though that doesn't make things better. Tragedy sucks especially when exhilleration and good times with friends in the mountains is the expected outcome.
I for one appreciate Summit's posts and insight. Bummed to see too may rippers and good friends I've met directly and indirectly through the boards get driven away by the shitshow they have become. The stoke goes with them...
People can be experienced, educated backcountry travelers who attempt to make good decisions. They can also be expert skiers, who are better than the average skier. I know plenty of avalanche pros who are pretty mediocre skiers and that's ok too. I think that the claim is usually meant to allow the general public understand that these people generally knew what they were doing. Even highly regarded, professional avalanche educators and forecasters are occasionally caught off guard in avy terrain. I think that certain people put too much stock into the semantics behind "Expert" and "Experienced". Even seasoned pros take offense when these terms are used, as if they themselves are being insulted by being thrown in with someone who would make such an error.
In the press release last year, this claim was made by one of the friends and first responders to the accident at Sheep Creek: "It should be known that many of the members of this group were extremely experienced and educated in backcountry travel." Now, remember, this was written by a friend of the victims, the day after the accident. Is he going to say his friends were retards and didn't know what they were doing? I doubt it. Is he going to paint his friends in a good light for the families of the victims? Yes. At least three of the people in the accident had at least a level 1 avy class under their belts and had been traveling in the CO backcountry for many years. One victims was a guide in RMNP for a local school. Experts? maybe not, but did they know what they were doing to some degree and did they have a good amount of time in the CO BC? Yes.
People are always so quick to jump at the level of expertise that the group had, especially right after the accident. Problem is, it doesn't really matter. Some of the most experienced people I know and look up to, have had a ton of close calls, many of which could have killed them. It's part of it, especially here in CO. But that's how you learn about the things they can't teach you in class.
I do think that moving forward, Avalanche education should place more emphasis on route finding, on the approach and decent, and human factors. Traveling in a group of seven, for me, means we are meadow-skipping, and not coming anywhere near avy terrain and we'll sure as hell be somewhere I've been a hundred times. I have no idea what factors lead to this accident, and I'm sure it will come to light soon enough. Mistakes were made, and people will get the chance to learn from them soon enough.
Sorry, I know: tl;dr
[/blog]
And I for one, have no problem with Summit starting threads about Avalanche accidents. He's usually one of the first to know, due to his involvement in SAR, and the early notice and info is appreciated. Why shit on someone who's letting you know about an accident? This place is fucking toxic.