Geeking out on ramp angle/delta.

just add foam where it feels loose. this might also be on the tongue of the boot too.

Got to love 8 year bump.

Working overnight and nerding out in my head.
Let’s put aside binding delta/ramp completely for a second
1) is it correct that touring boots tend to have (much) less internal boot board ramp delta (heel height to toe height) than true alpine boots (in my case full tilts- which from what I read have fairly high heel:toe so lots of bootboard ramp- and I love love love them)
2) if so- any touring boots have a high heel to toe ramp delta

I’m going through a little existential crisis with my touring boots and my common thought amongst all touring boots I’ve tried with your typical rockered touring soles is that I feel on my heels, as if my heel pads are in a deep hole relative to my toes

The touring boots I know have more drop between the heel and ball of the foot... im told about 15-17mm.

However this is compared to the sole not the insert. In one modern boot i think the ball of the foot sits about 7 mm below the front insert and the heel about 8mm above the heel.

I know the idea before was that more ramp would be more aggressive and now we want it flat. I guess with this internal drop you have to accept your heel will be higher unless you are using an flatter alpine style boot with inserts then i guess you could even get a negative angle.

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Originally Posted by Matt D

The touring boots I know have more drop between the heel and ball of the foot... im told about 15-17mm.

However this is compared to the sole not the insert. In one modern boot i think the ball of the foot sits about 7 mm below the front insert and the heel about 8mm above the heel.

I know the idea before was that more ramp would be more aggressive and now we want it flat. I guess with this internal drop you have to accept your heel will be higher unless you are using an flatter alpine style boot with inserts then i guess you could even get a negative angle.

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hmm then it would seem my understanding/intuition from above is wrong...:confused:

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Originally Posted by volklpowdermaniac

Got to love 8 year bump.

Working overnight and nerding out in my head.
Let’s put aside binding delta/ramp completely for a second
1) is it correct that touring boots tend to have (much) less internal boot board ramp delta (heel height to toe height) than true alpine boots (in my case full tilts- which from what I read have fairly high heel:toe so lots of bootboard ramp- and I love love love them)
2) if so- any touring boots have a high heel to toe ramp delta

I’m going through a little existential crisis with my touring boots and my common thought amongst all touring boots I’ve tried with your typical rockered touring soles is that I feel on my heels, as if my heel pads are in a deep hole relative to my toes

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There’s no answer, just better or worse compromises. I’ve been skiing the same (replacing components as they wear) Raichle/Full Tilt classic hill boots for 34 years now. They fit and ski perfectly, their characteristics (fit, stance, and flex) are what I’ve developed my ski technique around. In that same time I’ve gone through 9 different touring boots (Raichle Concordia, Scarpa Laser, Scarpa Denali, Garmont Radium, Dynafit Titan, Dynafit Titan Ultra, Dynafit Mercury, Salomon S-Lab X/Alp, and my latest Dynafit Hoji Free 110s) searching in vain for something that comes close my hill boots, but nothing does. Even when I get acceptable fit and flex (and tourability), as I have with my current Hoji’s, the stance (lean and ramp angle) is all wrong, as you describe, exacerbated by the varying ramp angles of bindings (those POS Shifts are the worst), and complicated by how these interact with the mount point, rocker profile (particularly with reverse camber skis, which are more sensitive to this) and side cut. I can adapt well enough when skiing powder, which fortunately compromises 90% of their use, but when I occasionally test trying to make technically perfect turns on groomed snow, I feel every inadequacy. As I have with every other touring boot, I’ll keep experimenting with every variable (adding boot spoilers, adding binding shims, changing the bindings, the mount point, my skis), finding incremental improvements, until the next greatest boot is released, and the cycle will continue. I’m going to go and fuck around with my setup right now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by volklpowdermaniac

Got to love 8 year bump.

Working overnight and nerding out in my head.
Let’s put aside binding delta/ramp completely for a second
1) is it correct that touring boots tend to have (much) less internal boot board ramp delta (heel height to toe height) than true alpine boots (in my case full tilts- which from what I read have fairly high heel:toe so lots of bootboard ramp- and I love love love them)
2) if so- any touring boots have a high heel to toe ramp delta

I’m going through a little existential crisis with my touring boots and my common thought amongst all touring boots I’ve tried with your typical rockered touring soles is that I feel on my heels, as if my heel pads are in a deep hole relative to my toes

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Did some measurements in my boots. Sold my 2mm ramp pin bindings and bought 10mm ramp. All good now.

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Originally Posted by CaliBrit

Did some measurements in my boots. Sold my 2mm ramp pin bindings and bought 10mm ramp. All good now.

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That just shows how delta is such an individual thing as many are doing the opposite.

I’ve found the easiest transition between alpine and touring bindings with the Tectons. I can switch between Sollys and Tectons seamlessly. I do use Lupos as a one boot quiver. I can’t stand the high delta of most traditional pin bindings. I’ve always had to shim them.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by volklpowdermaniac

Got to love 8 year bump.

Working overnight and nerding out in my head.
Let’s put aside binding delta/ramp completely for a second
1) is it correct that touring boots tend to have (much) less internal boot board ramp delta (heel height to toe height) than true alpine boots (in my case full tilts- which from what I read have fairly high heel:toe so lots of bootboard ramp- and I love love love them)
2) if so- any touring boots have a high heel to toe ramp delta

I’m going through a little existential crisis with my touring boots and my common thought amongst all touring boots I’ve tried with your typical rockered touring soles is that I feel on my heels, as if my heel pads are in a deep hole relative to my toes

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Not sure if its worth it to you to buy one of these just to compare your boots... but a digital protector could answer your question.

Put it in the boot, zero it, then remove it and place on something flat to find the delta.

Repeat the process in the other boot.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...189046a814.jpg

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Originally Posted by kootenayskier

There’s no answer, just better or worse compromises. I’ve been skiing the same (replacing components as they wear) Raichle/Full Tilt classic hill boots for 34 years now. They fit and ski perfectly, their characteristics (fit, stance, and flex) are what I’ve developed my ski technique around. In that same time I’ve gone through 9 different touring boots (Raichle Concordia, Scarpa Laser, Scarpa Denali, Garmont Radium, Dynafit Titan, Dynafit Titan Ultra, Dynafit Mercury, Salomon S-Lab X/Alp, and my latest Dynafit Hoji Free 110s) searching in vain for something that comes close my hill boots, but nothing does. Even when I get acceptable fit and flex (and tourability), as I have with my current Hoji’s, the stance (lean and ramp angle) is all wrong, as you describe, exacerbated by the varying ramp angles of bindings (those POS Shifts are the worst), and complicated by how these interact with the mount point, rocker profile (particularly with reverse camber skis, which are more sensitive to this) and side cut. I can adapt well enough when skiing powder, which fortunately compromises 90% of their use, but when I occasionally test trying to make technically perfect turns on groomed snow, I feel every inadequacy. As I have with every other touring boot, I’ll keep experimenting with every variable (adding boot spoilers, adding binding shims, changing the bindings, the mount point, my skis), finding incremental improvements, until the next greatest boot is released, and the cycle will continue. I’m going to go and fuck around with my setup right now.

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U get me.


Thanks all. Good stuff

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Originally Posted by Spyderjon

That just shows how delta is such an individual thing as many are doing the opposite.

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Yeah for me I think I’m more sensitive to forward lean.

My Cochise in Jesters is what I’m used to for alpine.

My Zero G in Alpinist was more upright and I felt like a beginner!

Zero G in ATK matches the forward lean to my alpine setup and I don’t really notice a ramp difference.

It could be worse. My wife absolutely loves her Nordica Dobermann Aggressor 130, 95mm lasted boots with full length length abduction. Just try to find touring boots that fit or ski anything close.

After eight year bump I don't feel bad about a 10 month bump!

What I'm interested in is two primary questions:

1) what's the order of operations?

Set ramp angle, then forward lean, and finally delta (via boot sole grinding or binding shims.)

2) I read a post by Bud Heishman addressing question number one above, where I think he reccomended setting ramp angle first based upon one range of dorsiflexion and having some achilles tension at rest. Ski "... can't remember the website that is no longer in existence quoted early in the thread or elsewhere..." I think talked about setting ramp angle for "dynamic tension" which makes sense from a physiologic perspective. A slight stretch and activation of the golgi tendon apparatus would turn on proprioceptive neural activity and Preload muscles for action.

So how does one determine the appropriate ramp angle? Just to clarify, forward lean and delta can be set later. That is to say all three do different things but still affect center of mass I'm the saggital plane.

Unfortunately, I broke my boots last spring and am working through a new pair if boots. I have a 295 bsl and 130 flex boots so I'm sensitive to the fore aft balance thing. I don't race and therefore don't need crazy forward lean angles.

I just started working with a new to me boot fitter in our new locale.

Fuch epicski.



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Originally Posted by skinipenem

So how does one determine the appropriate ramp?

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I used a low ramp angle binding and a ski with Binding Freedom inserts.

Big bag of different length screws, various home made shims and a range of different canting shims.

Took me about a week of skiing to figure out what worked best for me.

I appreciate the input ocean; however, what you are discussing is delta not ramp. :)

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by skinipenem

I appreciate the input ocean; however, what you are discussing is delta not ramp. :)

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My main point was that it is easier to try things and see how they feel, rather than trying to predict the outcome of a change.

When I spent my week fiddling with binding shims and binding cants I also had some variable heel lift shims that I taped to the boot board inside my boot shells.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ocean

My main point was that it is easier to try things and see how they feel, rather than trying to predict the outcome of a change.

When I spent my week fiddling with binding shims and binding cants I also had some variable heel lift shims that I taped to the boot board inside my boot shells.

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You are absolutely right. I can admit that due to my professional training and likely genetic/nurtured bent I am prone to making certain that everything is correct before launch. Skiing can clearly afford some trial and error [emoji1787]. Good reminder [emoji106]

That being said, I am still curious as to how one determines an efficacious internal ramp angle. Fwiw I have plenty of ankle dorsiflexion.

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From what I understand, if you have a lot of dorsiflexion you should start with less internal ramp angle and more forward lean. Then you can adjust binding delta.

Best discussion on ramp angle and forward lean I've found... @ 59:00

https://youtu.be/Ke6SkVwd8QI
If you want to nerd out

Dropped the ramp angle in my new boots... night and day difference... not perfect yet but soooooo much better.

My results from dropping ramp angle: more forefoot (1st met head) pressure with obviously increased ability to pressure the front of the ski and be centered forefoot and aft.

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Thanks for sharing, very interesting conversation and all makes sense


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Originally Posted by Skeeze

Thanks for sharing, very interesting conversation and all makes sense


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For another interesting dive into boot alignment check out cantology series on the tube.

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At long last, B&D have G3 Zed heel shims available. I ordered a couple of pairs of 6.4mm heel shims, which will bring them more in line with what I’m accustomed to from years in Dynafit ST/G3Ion/STH etc.