Thoughts about the slide (before, during and after)

gramps to clarify if I was unclear: when I asked about dropping the cornice I was refering to jumping off of it.

Comments:

[Disclaimer]I don't bc as much as I could or should or did and do not consider myself more than conversant. Also noting for the record that I doubt there would be a midwinter day here in CO where I'd ski something that looked like that. Also again, I'm not chucking rocks.[/Disclaimer]

On the occasions when I perform a ski cut, I do it a lot differently and while it definitionally "ruins" the initial aestetics of the line (especially for the ski cutter) it also exposes one considerably less. Basically, FMM a ski cut is always completed from safe a) to "safe" b) and involves loading up the slope as much as possible but also regardless going from a to b and includes a full stop at b (and maybe another cut).

[monday morning QB]To my eye it looks like had you done a true a to b slope cut and had that as your plan (btw- I think in this context dropping off the cornice is appropriate) your chance of skiing off the slab would have been considerably higher. You would've potentially been able to simply turn off. As it appears, not only was your attention on the rest of the run but your weight never (at least in the clip) gets back to a point where you could effectively use your skis for anything other than that right turn into it... That was the thing that jumped out at me immediately when I viewed the clip was "damn, if he'd been "on" that right ski it would've been a no brainer... And it means you were committed to the line before any ski cut results could be known.

I only bring it up as it hasn't been discussed and not to supplant any of the other factors contributing to the accident (recognizing that you still would have set off the slide and also recognizing that the investigation crew set off further left hangfire). This is IMO another little contributory protocol breakdown.

For me at least this one echos Roman's slide in wolverine (at least a bit) with ski cuts and cornice drops (knowing that it was slope cuts and then a cornice drop that set off the avy there)[/MMQB]

Did I qualify all that enough? Again, I don't want to be offensive.

lemon, that's what i've been saying. i didn't properly test the slope. i didn't center punch it but when nothing went when i dropped in and i felt nothing in the first 10-15' i began to commit. after looking at trempers pictures, it would have been very hard to reach a safe spot on that ridge wihtout pulling more out above me. fyi, this line is very similar to what you might find in colorado. it was a thin snowpack with depth hoar and facets abundant. had i known that, like you, i never would have skied it. for the record, nothing about this was proper and i don't think i've claimed that but i don't mind anyone pointing out the flaws. that's how we learn.

And just think, if you hadn't a pussed out and gone for the gully you could've skied that ohhhh so tempting rib (that funneled snow back onto you). :) Prolly woulda had a funner day and we wouldn't all be here either ;) :D :p:

APD, I was looking at the 'before' mineral photo with all the blast holes, and the shot of the discussed avy here.

It does indeed look like there is a faint bomb blast reminant just skiers right of your line.

Do you see it?

thanks for this thread.

I've learned one thing about mountaineering: there is no such thing as absolute safety. and when it comes to avy danger this counts in particular. save slopes simply do not exist. there are just safer and less save slopes. so in my oppinion responsible mountaineering is not about safety - otherwise one would have to stay at home - but is about knowing what risk you are going to take and to conciously decide, if it (in my case - personal experiences) is worth for you to take that risk. or to put it in other words, I weigh the gains against the possible losses. unemotionally, I'ld call this riskmanagement.

I personally have the impression, that you kind of knew what risk you were about to take and still took it. If you took it conciously, then everything is fine.
If you didn't, it probably happened due to circumstances of the following kind (some of them were already mentioned): groupdynamics (of course, I have no clue, but normally, the less people are around you, the less save one feels...so at first sight that reason doesn't make a lot of sense), fatigue, fear...

I'm probably simply projecting my personal experiences on you - but thinking this way helped me to analyze my mistakes and it hopefully objectifies my decisiontaking in future.

glad you're fine and you're as always sharing your knowledge and experiences in such a straightforward manner. :)

Glad you guys didn't have to actully use your beacons that is one scary vid. Glad you posted I learned something and you learned something, thats what this forum is for right?

Amazing that you managed to stay in the same orientation and relative control during the entire ride.

That video made my knees shake. Very glad everybody's all right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bullet 2

The question is - did you feel at any time that your skis were pulling you under - or were they keeping you afloat? I've often thought that if I can keep my skis under me, they can be a life raft. But if I couldn't, I'd roll to get them to release. Since you've experienced this, thought?

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i almost went under a few times but i'm not sure i can attribute that to the skis. i was glad they stayed on in this case but had it been a more violent tumbling i'd have been in trouble. i also think that if i had made it past the track and gotten down to the deposition zone that i'd been pulled down by my skis. if you want to roll to drop the skis you'd better do it early in the slide. after it gets moving it is anyones guess as to what will happen.

i don't know about trying to roll in it but that would depend on the depth of the slab and its hardness. i wouldn't want to do it on a deep soft slab but most deep slabs are approaching 20-30% H2O content and atleast 1 finger hard.


low din settings will help you drop your skis. i keep mine high just because i am often exposed above cliffs and other no fall zones where i need the skis at all costs. if you are just pow skiing then you can go with the din chart's recommendation.