Oh, you'll care!Quote:
Originally Posted by travis
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Oh, you'll care!Quote:
Originally Posted by travis
I just skimmed the replies, but if it wasn't mentioned, keep it close to the center of mass, i.e. bib chest pocket is better than leg "cargo" pocket. Biggest probe target (that's what she said).
As for harness vs. pocket, I vote for pocket if you're down to your base layer on a warm day, and '6 of one, half dozen of the other' if under your jacket.
Keister it like Rontele.
Yeah, I actually am aware of my surroundings. I just bump into them a lot. I am a clumsy oaf. This is one of a few reasons you will find my shovel handle INSIDE my pack.Quote:
Originally Posted by icelanticskier
I've worn my beacon in its chest harness for years with no problems and then last year for some reason I decided to wear it in my hip pocket. I glanced a tree and damaged the beacon screen....result ......I had to buy a new beacon.
Now I wear mine either in it's harness or in an inner zippered CHEST pocket.
Just too susceptible to damage in a hip or thigh pocket IMO and too much to risk for any convenience gained.
Zippered, not velcroed, chest pocket on bibs sounds OK to me but you want to attach leash so it doesn't slide off if you drop it on a slope while searching.
YMMV
I have had my beacon in my pants pocket for 10+ years. It's clipped to my zipper so I can't lose it, and it keeps it far away from my other electronics (GPS, radio, RECCO, cell phone) while I'm patrolling. I love it there, it's quick to get at, and easy to pull out to check my partner's signal when we go on a route.
I wear the same pants all the time, so having it there keeps me from forgetting it on days off.
Never had a problem with it.
As previously mentioned, if an avalanche rips my pants off, I'm probably dead anyway.
If an avalanche rips my pants off but I survive, and I die because my beacon wasn't strapped to me properly..... I guess that's my fault.
Been thinking about going to beacon in pocket. This morning I was practicing some blind thrown beacon searches. Went to receive mode, low and behold no beacon transmitting. I had thrown it in untracked snow so I was able to finally retrieve it. Turns out the landing strike on a buried rock had broken the beacon case and there was no battery cell contact.
Made me think about all the moving pieces in a slide and potential rock and tree trauma that could hit a beacon in a leg pocket. Leg pocket would be great and convenient for search, but not rescue. Not worth the convenience imho to risk the one thing that is going to help someone locate me. Someone could argue that a chest harness might yield the same results. I think arms and it being under layers would make a strike less probable. Still could happen.
perfect :Quote:
Originally Posted by rip
in avalanche terrain, it is all about your personal Comfort --
You lose your becon > I am sure your companions will understand your inability to assist with becon searches .
our technology has surpassed our intelligence.
skiJ
I keep my beacon in the hip pocket of my pants for the exact same reason. I usually ride in a hoody unless its super windy/cold and don't always have my fleece underneath or shell on top that both have inside chest pockets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clownshoe
I remember reading this thread before and it got me thinking about placement but felt like a total n00b for having to ask. stupid. Seems like there is anecdotal evidence in this thread for issues with beacons both in the hip pocket and the harness, any evidence for a chest pocket being that much safer or just dumb luck on what can happen if caught in an avi?
You need to use a NERF Football to pad your practice beacon.Quote:
Originally Posted by MiCol
AFAIK there's no data on the effects of different beacon-carry locations. I usually wear mine in an appropriate pant/bib pocket, and personally would not carry it in a jacket.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghosthop
What Bean said... I have not seen any data or studies on beacon carry location. I carry mine in my front bib pocket the vast majority of the time. I wouldn't carry in a hip pocket because I fall too much and wouldn't carry in a jacket pocket because my jacket goes in my pack when skinning.
Good idea, noted. Would travel a lot farther as wellQuote:
Originally Posted by Hacksaw
You should patent that practice of yours and profit!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacksaw
I wrote this article when I was working at CAIC. Enjoy....Quote:
Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark
Nerfball: an avalanche transceiver practice method.
By: Halsted “Hacksaw” Morris
While teaching avalanche safety courses for the Colorado Avalanche Information Center (CAIC), one of the many things I always emphasized was that folks need to practice a lot with their avalanche rescue transceivers. Checking around the Internet, you’ll see on many forums that the general public seems to believe that if they’re using a digital transceiver that they don’t need to practice as much.
The truth is practice builds skills, and limited practice means no skills in a critical situation. Getting folks to practice with their transceivers has always been tough, especially if they are alone. What good is it to practice transceiver searches, if you are doing the hiding and the finding? Obviously doing solo transceiver practice isn’t very realistic.
Backcountry Access (BCA) has donated Beacon Basins, at various ski areas for folks to practice with their transceivers. They are basically a power box with on-off switches that are hard wired to fixed in place transmitters. At first I thought that these Beacon Basins are a great learning tool. But, what I have found is that they are not very realistic.
I say this because when folks are using a Beacon Basins it does not realistically represent what a real avalanche rescue transceiver search is like. My example of this, is when someone switches on the Beacon Basins they are already standing well within signal reception range of the victim. Now how many times do you think that happens in a real life accident?
So, folks don’t get a lesson in doing a larger area search and, trying to find the victim’s signal. With the shorter reception range on many digital transceivers it is critically important to conduct a proper initial search (i.e. how big and wide your zigzag search patterns are). I have also found that with Beacon Basins, once folks have found the buried transceivers the first time, they never really go back and use the Beacon Basin again. If they do, it really isn’t much of a practice session since they already know roughly where the buried transceivers are any way.
Ideally, it would be great to have a different and realistic transceiver search practice session each time. So, I got to thinking that it would be great to simply throw a transmitting transceiver over your shoulder, in order to hide the victim for solo transceiver practice. But, as tough as most transceivers are, it’s not recommended to be throwing them around. Finding away to pad a transceiver would be the way to make this solo transceiver practice possible. The solution to this problem arrived to me one day while shopping at Target. Target and King Soopers sell a small nine-inch Nerf football, for less then $10 in their toy department. A Nerfball is made of soft foam, suitable for indoor play. The nine-inch Nerf football is ideal for padding an avalanche transceiver. Here is how to make your own Nerfball transceiver practice ball.
Cut the football in half lengthwise, and then trace the outline of the transceiver you want to use with a marker. Then pinch the foam to rip it out. Do this until you make a form-fitting pocket for the transceiver. Then place the transmitting transceiver inside the pocket and use several large rubber bands to close the ball. But remember, make sure the transceiver is on transmit and working, before you secure the two half’s back together. Then place the Nerfball inside a small stuff sack. Now you’re ready to use the Nerfball.
Update 20150414: Nerfball has come out with a new ball called the Bashball. It is hallow inside and has holes that allow for cutting an entry slot and putting a transceiver inside the ball. Place the transceiver inside a zip-lock plastic bag and then inside the Bashball. The advantage of this new “Bashball” over the Nerf football is that the transceiver inside the ball has more opportunity to end up in unusual orientations (i.e., vertical, etc…) which makes for more difficult/unusual searches. I highly recommend the newer Bashball over the football.
A tear in my shoulder has left me lacking a John Elway strength arm for throwing a Nerfball. But, I have found that tossing the Nerfball over my shoulder down a steep slope helps the ball travel further away. I have also found that doing transceiver practice on a forested slope with plenty of undergrowth makes for better (i.e., more complicated) practice. Once you’ve thrown the Nerfball remain looking uphill and allow the ball a minute to “pinball” down the slope and to finally come to rest. So far, my old Pipes 457 transceiver has survived 250+ “huckings” inside the Nerfball.
Essentially with the Nerfball transmitter you’re doing a transceiver search without the victim’s last seen area to start from. This is usually the most difficult sort of transceiver search for most folks, other then a multiple burial type situation. My thinking is that practicing the most difficult type of searches should improve one’s transceiver skills the most.
Just like an on-snow search, you need to first acquire the victim’s transmitting transceivers signal. Since you don’t know the slidepath boundaries in doing a dry land solo transceiver practice, figure your slidepath to be at least 150’ wide (75 feet to either side of the spot you where standing when you threw the Nerfball). Once you have picked up the victim’s signal, you can then start to use your preferred search method (fluxline/tangent method or the older grid method).
Once you’re closing in on the victim, you may actual see the Nerfball. I see this as the only drawback to the Nerfball practice method. But, you can complete your search and practice your final pinpoint search just above the Nerfball transmitter, even while it is visible and sitting on the ground. A camouflage pattern stuff sack is one way to make the Nerfball even less obvious, until you’re almost on top of it.
Placing the Nerfball in a short white plastic trash bag can add to the camouflaging of the hidden transmitter for on-snow searches. I have found that doing Nerfball searches on steeper ski resort slopes can be very realistic too. Pick a slope that has plenty of bumps and benches on it. Toss the ball and wait. Then it becomes a matter of doing your zigzags back and forth across the slope. You’ll suddenly find you have to ski/board over bumps (i.e. avalanche debris) while at the same time working with your transceiver. This is much more realistic then doing a search on flat terrain in a Beacon Basin.
My objective here is to get you out and doing a lot of transceiver searches. If you have a big enough slope, they can get four or five practice searches in before hiking back up the hill to start all over again (gee, getting a workout in while doing transceiver practice); or making another lap at a ski area. So, there’s no reason to forgo doing transceiver practice just because you don’t have a partner or time.
A number of folks still have their older duel frequency transceivers (Ortovox F2, Arva 4000 and Ramer Avalert Duel) or older 457 Hz analog transceivers (Pieps 457 Ortovox F1) in the back of their equipment closets. And, there are a number of used older transceivers for sale out there that can be picked up at minimal cost. Camo stuff sacks can be found at your local hunting equipment stores.
The Nerfball transmitter practice method is easy, simple, cheap, realistic and a great way to get in a lot of great transceiver practice. With two or more Nerfball transmitters you can quickly become skilled at multiple transceiver searches.
I have had a number of avalanche professionals laugh when I pull out a Nerfball from my pack. But, once they tried the Nerfball practice method, they see the real value of it. And they end up using it. It doesn’t matter what brand of avalanche rescue transceiver you own. More important is that you’re skilled and confidant with your transceiver. The Nerfball transmitter is one way to improve your skills, during summer and winter. I hope you’ll try it out.
Not trying to Monday quarterback or be a nervous Nellie.
But fuck. The marble Avvy is scary. Airbag ripped off. Beacon removed from pants.
I always like the security of the beacon harness.
But ooof. RIP.
========
Some of Skier 2’s equipment was damaged in the avalanche. He wore an avalanche airbag pack He deployed it in the avalanche but the bag was ripped out of his pack during the violent descent. He also carried an avalanche rescue transceiver, but it was in a pocket on his bibs that closed with a flap and buckle. His transceiver came out of this pocket during the avalanche and was only attached to him by a thin lanyard. When the debris stopped, it was buried a few feet away from him. The manufacturers of avalanche transceivers typically supply a harness and often include recommendations on how to carry the rescue device. It is important to follow their recommendations and ensure the unit is in a secure location. The damage to Skier 2’s equipment is a good reminder that safety equipment can reduce, but not eliminate, the consequences of getting caught in an avalanche.
I dropped a tracker 1 at the resort when I stopped to take a leak. Didn't realize it at the time. For some reason I have 4 transceivers. when I went back and searched it the signal was al over the place in a 1.5 meter area? Spent a good deal of time shoveling before I found it
The entire thing is a tragedy, I cannot imagine what any of them went through.
It is important to note that Skier 2's beacon was:
and not in a proper pocket designed to carry a beacon. It sounds like he went over a cliff too, which explains the airbag. It is remarkable that Skier 1 survived the same trip.Quote:
in a pocket on his bibs that closed with a flap and buckle.
Buddy of mine broke 2 ribs crashing on his radio and beacon. FWIW.
Yeah. But I try to get my beacon below my ribs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunion 2020
The fleshy underbelly.
I think that’s safer than my thigh. Assuming things go fubar and your beacon hits a rock or tree.
I also like the harness. A reminder that you’re out on your own and need to make good decisions. If it were in my pants pocket it’s just a pants thing.
Ymmv.
And respect to those that have passed.
My friend Crazy Terry retired his tracker 1 because the signal went super weak/useless. This was a couple three years back during a beacon check at Monarch. Definitely older than dirt with more miles than it ever should have had. He replaced with T3.Quote:
Originally Posted by whipski
A member of my touring party was caught in a slide many years ago in AK, on the ascent. It wasn't a particularly violent slide, but the harness still broke and the beacon lanyard was barely wrapped around one of his boot buckles. Sounds fairly similar to this accident, except he was only buried to his waist so it didn't matter. Bottom line to me is that the beacon is pretty vulnerable on the ascent unless you have layers on which for me means really cold temps.
I'm with Orion- the "flap and buckle" comment makes me think that it wasn't a very good pocket for this purpose. It at least needs a zipper.
I pocket carry. I think it's more protected. I think I can start a search faster since I don't need to fumble with my pack or jacket zippers. I think it's easier to maintain distance from other electronic devices like a radio. I don't think there is a correct answer.
IMO the correct answer is what works best for you as long as you have thought about it. I bruised my ribs on a Skadi back in 86. Those fuckers were hard with sharp edges and little to speak of for a harness.
I’m thinking that a slide that tears your airbag off and you lose your beacon by it being pulled from your pocket or being depantsed is unsurvivable
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Most likely.
re: beacons, I like the harness. Not that it's comfortable or anything, but it's consistent, and specifically designed for its purpose, so no second guessing. And I too retired my Tracker 1 (several years ago, actually).
I like wearing the beacon in a purpose built pocket with a zipper and a lanyard loop. It’s comfortable, not covered by layers and easier to get close to the snow surface.
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I've used the Pieps and Mammut harnesses and I don't see how those flimsy plastic buckles are more secure than my pants which are held on me by both a belt and would be hard as hell to rip off my legs with my ski boots on. I'm 100% confident the beacon is more secure zipped into my pants pocket with the lanyard attached than in a harness. Most of the time I'm touring uphill in a base layer and no way am I wearing the harness under my base layer.
My Flylow Bakers have a "beacon pocket" with a d-ring for the lanyard that closes with a snap. I use it when I beep inbounds, but I use a zipper pocket on my touring pants.
I don't remember the exact quote, but I remember someone (Manuel Genswein maybe?) saying that in the data he never found a case of an avalanche death by suffocation, where the victim was missing his pants.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn
This is what I was thinking about. The CAIC description sure sounds a lot like the beacon pocket on the Baker bibs. Which would probably be better if it was zippered, but overall is I think still a pretty good place to carry a beacon as long as you have a layer over it. Which also applies to the harness because....Quote:
Originally Posted by snowaddict91
If you're caught when ascending, as both these parties were, that may make your beacon more vulnerable to being separated from your body whether it's in the harness or in a pocket. Part of the design is to have the beacon protected by a layer of clothing, yet it's common for folks to skin in their baselayer with the beacon exposed on warm days. I sure have.Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenboy
Also this. Not all avalanches are survivable. The other two may have survived, but it seems like the specific ride this guy took probably was probably extremely violent.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn
I agree. I was stoked to get another Barryvox this winter after having one 10 years ago but the harness does not seem secure nor is it particularly comfortable. The harness that came with my Tracker 3 is much nicer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon3
Hadn't read the full report yet, that is terrifying. That said, I fully trust the setup in my Strafe kit: mesh pocket in a zipper pocket with leash clipped to a mini loop inside
Not sure how common it is, but someone mentioned a few years ago that not all pockets are created equal.
Some pocket are glued on top of the rest of the pants, and can be ripped of the pant.
Others are one the «inside» of the pants, and are more secure. Can’t remember the source / if this actually matters in a slide.
Point being that pockets are different, and I think a lot of people don’t consider how their pants are made.
I carry in my pant, due to frequently touring without jacket
In the couple avy classes I've taken, all the instructors also keep it in a pants pocket with a bungee harness for those exact reasons. I have a great small pocket that goes to the inside of the pant on my flylow tannen bibs that is on the front (not side) around the hip area, and then wrap the bungee around a belt loop and bib strap. I like how fast I can pull it out if the need arises.Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenboy
As the bumper of this stale thread. I admit pants pockets can be secure. And plenty of experts use pants pockets for beacons. or. To play pocket pool?
lots of straps and stuff with a chest harness maybe you forget it when you change layers ? i went from harness to pocket carry and i prefer pocket
we had somes swedes come thru who left a beacon at the top of "the 5000 " 5000 ft of avalanche path where you really might need it , no aviy but they had to go back the next day so I've seen it happen
I remember this guy I took an aviy 1 from, he more or less starts the friday night classroom talk with " I have found 26 bodies some of them without heads and limbs " apparently the attorney general would call him to find the bodies
Exactly. The trauma required to fully pants a person almost certainly results in their death. As in, no known examples of survival. That was Manuel Genswein's argument when he was teaching a seminar back in 2010 or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn
Pocket beacons must be:
1. INTERIOR pocket, not a bellows pocket which is both likely to catch and a ripped seam/hole will likely drive the beacon externally instead of inside the pants.
2. ZIPPERED pocket - flaps and buckles are likely to catch.
3. SECURED by lanyard appropriately.
In the Marble accident, the lanyard still connected the beacon to the victim.
Pocket or harness, turn your transceiver's screen toward your body so a glancing blow does not crack it.
I've noticed a few pocket carry folks around these parts put their beacon in a beer coozie. Not sure how functional it is for protection, but it adds a little padding and is more comfortable in the pocket.Quote:
Originally Posted by summit
The beer coozie is actually so my pants don't get a hole worn in the pocket fabric. Works for phones, tooQuote:
Originally Posted by Going Coastal
Also works well for padding my phone in my cycling bibs pocket.Quote:
Originally Posted by Going Coastal