Does anyone love the dynafits ramp angle?

Interesting thanks. Maybe an old riser plate from some slalom skis would work with some cutting. Not sure what material those are made of- I have some old RC4s with some kind of hard plastic riser. Would be cool to design a riser like that which slots the toe piece in neatly.

All of this sort of begs the question: why doesn't dynafit engineer something to flatten the ramp? I guess the brake requires the heel to be higher up, and they can't compensate in the toe piece without structurally compromising it.

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Originally Posted by Driver

All of this sort of begs the question: why doesn't dynafit engineer something to flatten the ramp?

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I keep asking for 11mm and 14mm thicker toe baseplates, which they COULD just throw in the box for those that care. So far no response from Dynafit, but you never know. Playing around with a Beast 16 in the kitchen at the moment, and the ramp measures out to about 5.9mm (kind of hard to estimate where the center of the elliptical pins is, I am measuring to the Torx screw that holds the climbing riser on).

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Originally Posted by coldfeet

Longer screws mounted through a shim put more leverage on the screw-ski interface and there is an extra place for a little slop. Then once a screw gets a bit loose, the interface will go to pieces quickly.

AFAIK, the Superloop telemark binding with long screws that went through a 10mm riser had problems and pull-outs once people started using big plastic boots on it (this is before my time but I can see how it would happen). The cure is to use a double mount, binding to riser, riser to ski.

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Have you actually experienced the interface "go to pieces" with shimmed tech toes? The forces on tele bindings screws are very different -- way way way higher pullout forces, especially on the rear screws, e.g., BD O1 pullouts. Plastic tele boots = crowbar cycling w/ each tele turn. Dynafit in tour mode = low friction pivot = virtually no pullout force; Dynafit in ski mode = virtually no levering. To be safe I helicoil my shimmed tech toes, no problems. ETA: I and others have opined on another thread that tech binding pullouts usually result from loose binding screws.

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Originally Posted by gregL

......Playing around with a Beast 16 in the kitchen at the moment, and the ramp measures out to about 5.9mm (kind of hard to estimate where the center of the elliptical pins is, I am measuring to the Torx screw that holds the climbing riser on).

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Dynafit tech manual says 6mm delta on the Beasts when using their One/Mercury/Vulcan boots which is what mine measure out at.

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Originally Posted by Big Steve

Have you actually experienced the interface "go to pieces" with shimmed tech toes?

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Definitely not (I haven't shimmed a tech toe) and I agree with the rest of what you said about the forces being generally different/worse on tele bindings. I would expect the worst forces on Dynafit toe screws to be from kick turns and the like. Maybe knee falls in tour mode also.

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The forces on tele bindings screws are very different -- way way way higher pullout forces, especially on the rear screws, e.g., BD O1 pullouts. Plastic tele boots = crowbar cycling w/ each tele turn. Dynafit in tour mode = low friction pivot = virtually no pullout force; Dynafit in ski mode = virtually no levering. To be safe I helicoil my shimmed tech toes, no problems. ETA: I and others have opined on another thread that tech binding pullouts usually result from loose binding screws.

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Yeah, my point is just that there was some prior cases where if there was going to be a problem, it would be worse with through mounted shims. I also suspect that pull outs are most likely from screws that get a little loose, presumably chewing up the threads. (including the telemark case)

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Originally Posted by Spyderjon

Dynafit tech manual says 6mm delta on the Beasts when using their One/Mercury/Vulcan boots which is what mine measure out at.

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Yeah, guess I should round up . . .

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Originally Posted by Big Steve

To be safe I helicoil my shimmed tech toes, no problems. ETA: I and others have opined on another thread that tech binding pullouts usually result from loose binding screws.

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Steve- interesting. have heard of people doing inserts for swap ability. But you are saying the inserts will resist the additional leverage created by a longer screw and thus limit potential for loosening?

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Originally Posted by Driver

Steve- interesting. have heard of people doing inserts for swap ability. But you are saying the inserts will resist the additional leverage created by a longer screw and thus limit potential for loosening?

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He said helicoil not inserts.

Helicoil inserts no? http://www.helicoil.com.sg

In any case, this is the response I received from Dynafit. Emailed and asked why the ramp angle and what the office line is on shims. Props for the super fast and clear response:


"We design our bindings in an attempt to appease the widest number of consumers. Many consumers (especially in Europe) like to ski in more of a forward position. Personally I would rather be more up right so thankfully there is the shimming option.

Using the shims should not negatively effect the integrity of the binding and I do it in my personal set up."

Common mag usage: "insert" = Binding Freedom, etc.; "helicoil" = Helicoil ski inserts

I helicoil my touring skis for several reasons. Per my crude wholly unscientific pullout tests, screw/helicoil interface (bigger cross section) is way stronger than screw/ski core interface. But the latter holds up fine for 99+% of mounts so it's more about peace of mind. I also helicoil touring mounts to know I'll have a good interface if I need remove and replace a binding in the field.

Seems like a good idea, though a good bit of work I'm sure.

Nah, not that much extra work if you're tooled up.

I need to have some toe shims installed on my Dynafit Comforts and do not have the tools to do it myself. I contacted a couple shops in SLC that sell Dynafit bindings, but they both seemed clueless about the delta angle issue and B&D shims. Can anyone recommend a shop in the Salt Lake area that knows what they are doing in dealing with this procedure?

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Originally Posted by Mudfoot

I need to have some toe shims installed on my Dynafit Comforts and do not have the tools to do it myself.

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If the bindings are already installed, all you need is a Pozidrive #3 screwdriver and some longer screws. The best source of B & D shims is Bill himself: http://bndskigear.com/

Update:

I got the 4.7mm toes shims and screws from B&D and put them on my Dynafit Comforts. Took my setup out on the area today and the boots are more comfortable and the skis are edging and turning like never before. I wish I had figured this out a few years ago. Too much ramp angle really does suck.

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Originally Posted by Mudfoot

Update:

I got the 4.7mm toes shims and screws from B&D and put them on my Dynafit Comforts. Took my setup out on the area today and the boots are more comfortable and the skis are edging and turning like never before. I wish I had figured this out a few years ago. Too much ramp angle really does suck.

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What screws did you use?

I got the 28mm screws from B&D, but the guy who installed them for me said he needed to grind them down quite a bit.

Slidewright stocks 21.5mm ABS screws, nice ones, serrated heads. If you need longer, a #12 sheet metal/wood screw (non-tapered) with the right head profile will work on a new mount or in ski helicoils. The respective minor and major diameters and thread depth of a typical ABS and #12 sheet metal/non-tapered wood screw are similar. (Note that not all ABS are the same.) ABS are commonly c. 14TPI, while #12 screws are 11TPI. I grind down the point of #12 screws to a blunt end like ABS. Both ABS and #12 seem to fit about the same in a ski helicoil, which has a bit of slop -- bomber connection but allows some adjustment before the glue gels, sometimes a good thing with a tech toe mount. Note: I use epoxy to make a nicely sealed connection for both kinds of screws: turn ski upside down during initial epoxy gelling period, then back off the screw 1/4 turn or so between gelling and cure to form combo Al+epoxy well-sealed thread, and resnug after curing. There are other ways to achieve a well-sealed connection, but that's what works for me. Wrote the above hastily, hope it makes sense.

The toe shims went on some old all carbon Goode skis, and the tech who did the work for me had experience with them and knew what he was doing. The screws were epoxied and did not need helicoils. Coincidentally, I talked to Terry at Slidewright about screws during the process, but I did not know exactly what length I would need until the old ones were removed. Even though my Carbon 95s have a pretty thin profile, the guys at Goode thought the bindings were probably mounted with stock Dynafit screws. It was easiest for me to just get the long screws from B&D with the shims, but if you have access to different screw lengths then it probably makes more sense to see what things look like when you remove the old ones.

Bumping because this shit fucked me up. Never even thought about ramp angle/delta until a week ago. Switching my plum guides out for speed radicals and BND shims.

Some back-of-the-envelope trigonometrys shows that with my boot length (as measured from insert to insert), the ramp angle on plums with maestrales is a whopping 16 degrees. Little bit of research shows that race style alpine boots such as mine (tecnica inferno 130) have about a 4 degree angle built in to the boot board. FKS 185s are almost neutral. That is FOUR TIMES the ramp angle. No wonder I was skiing like shit on my touring setup.

EDIT: this is assuming a flat ramp on Maestrale RS's. My understanding is that touring boots are pretty flat, which makes sense for better walking.

Will report back after skiing the new binding setup, but for now I do not love the ramp angle. I'm pretty shocked that binding manufacturers aren't paying more attention to it.

I think you will find they ski a lot better with the shims.

I've been putting shims under the dynafit toes for a few years.

The ramp angle doesn't make any sense, I just assume it's old thinking at dynafit.

FYI, the heel of the 14/15 Speed Radicals are a mm higher than the old ones in order to fit the new anti-rotation doohickey. Happily skiing mine with B&D shims.

I found that a quick and dirty method of assessing if ramp angle is too much is to ski the dynafit binding with the heel of the boot placed UNDER the pins of the heelpiece and toe engaged and locked...ski some smooth low angle groomers with some rollers and don't overtorque the toes...effective immediate feedback on ramp angle. Of course, this also changes the forward lean of the ski boot so factor that in to the feedback and adjust boot forward lean if necessary...foam wedges behind rear innerboot or tweak forward lean adjustment of boot if available. If a guy wanted to discover if ramp angle was too little, i would stick some stuff into the holes of the boot pin holes and allow the pins to rest on the material without 'clicking in' and simply ski smoothly to avoid going over the handlebars....again, immediate feedback on ramp angle. f.y.i....my impression is that the binding ramp angle is simply one factor of many that contribute to stance issues...for example, i skied my dynafit mercuries side by side with scarpa maestale's (same innerboot/footbed in both shells) and found that the built in ramp of the mercuries was noticably more aggressive (armada declivity skis and dynafit vertical st bindings)...setup skied better with the mercuries, was more back seat and unbalanced in the scarpas for this particular setup. (forward lean of boots were matched with foam wedges between rear cuff and innerboot. It's all fun stuff to dick around with but admit it's frustrating dialing in the perfect stance angles...which is typically why i buy and intitially tinker and find the best compromise then wear stuff out until it breaks, then fix it and ski it till it unrepairably falls apart. :eek:

Doesn't bother me honestly.

What is the ramp angle on sth and 916s, those are my favoritists of all times, just bought some dynafit ones and some radical st, and I feel like I have no feel for my tips anymore, can't engage them feel like I'm very flat footed and undynamic yet everyone says how much ramp these things have which I would expect to put me in a good aggressive ski position, is it possible it's just the flatness of the boots themselves compared to my full tilts or is it possible I have too much ramp? I run my full tilts win the middle lean wedge, and all sth or 91* bindings... Wondering how to get the two setups as close to each other as possible

Use a clinometer app on your phone, put the boots in the bindings, skis flat on the floor and measure the angle on the boot board.

Those 28mm screws from B&D have a really large OD thread on them, ironically they won't fit through B&D Dynafit spacers or Salomon toes unless you drill out the holes. The holding power must be great in the ski though, they're probably for telemark bindings that see crazy loading.

Anybody know the ramp delta on the Beast 14? Same as 16? Just ordered a pair but hate the radical ramp. Hoping I won't have to shim. Haven't found any nice products like B&D here in Yurp, so still looking for good solutions for the radicals.

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Originally Posted by volklpowdermaniac

What is the ramp angle on sth and 916s, those are my favoritists of all times, just bought some dynafit ones and some radical st, and I feel like I have no feel for my tips anymore, can't engage them feel like I'm very flat footed and undynamic yet everyone says how much ramp these things have which I would expect to put me in a good aggressive ski position, is it possible it's just the flatness of the boots themselves compared to my full tilts or is it possible I have too much ramp? I run my full tilts win the middle lean wedge, and all sth or 91* bindings... Wondering how to get the two setups as close to each other as possible

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The heel on STH and 916s are only 2 mm higher than the toe, relatively neutral, and I like it too. The feeling you are having is because of excessive ramp, shimming the toe will make your skis with radicals feel more like your FTs and Sollys. You are having a hard time feeling the tips because you are likely compensating for the ramp by sticking your butt out and it's hard to pressure the boot cuff when you feel like you're going to fall on your face all the time.

What size are the shims available in

for everyone this bothers 5 dudes pull em outta the box mount em and rip hard and never think about it

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Originally Posted by smooth operator

Anybody know the ramp delta on the Beast 14? Same as 16? Just ordered a pair but hate the radical ramp. Hoping I won't have to shim. Haven't found any nice products like B&D here in Yurp, so still looking for good solutions for the radicals.

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6mm. Same. Spyderjon might even offer to build you a template and a toe shim if you ask.

So many variables influence maintaining perfect fore-aft balance while skiing:
- rocker/camber/side-cut/flex of the ski, and the way that engages with different types of snow at different speeds.
- mount point of bindings on the ski.
- ramp angle of the boot board and the tech fittings in your boot.
- forward lean and flex of your boot.
- ramp angle of your bindings.
- weight distribution of your physiology.
- vision, reaction time, flexibility, strength.
- fundamental skiing technique.
- wearing a pack of whatever weight.
There's no "perfect" value for any one variable, the best we can hope for is that they're within the range of applying our capacity to adapt. It's conceivable that a couple of degrees of binding ramp angle is the proverbial "straw" that's compromising your ability to find balance, but I'd guess there's a lot more going on.

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Originally Posted by skifishbum

for everyone this bothers 5 dudes pull em outta the box mount em and rip hard and never think about it

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Where did you come up with the 5 to 1 ratio? Almost everyone I know who skis on Dynafits(Vertical and Radical ST/FT) likes a shim under the toe better, even if they've been blissfully skiing on them for years. There are outliers and that is usually because of different anatomy and body mechanics of some skiers. It's usually very easy to spot the skiers on high ramp tech bindings, they have a very distinctive form.

Just because you make a proclamation in bro-brah speak doesn't make it true. I have a friend who is a ski tech for Head and he says that often racers will complain about a ski like it's the tune or the ski or something, he will shim the toes and they all of a sudden love the ski. It's a real issue for a lot of people and I don't believe it's only for 1/5th of skiers.

Of course they're are a lot of other variables but this one is a very easy fix for a lot of people and it helps them ski better.

For me, I don't feel a problem skiing Speed Radicals and TLT 6 boots. However, TLT 6 boots have a fair amount of toe rocker and pin holes would be higher than maybe a Scarpa et et, so maybe shims with Dynafit rockered boots is a non issue. ?

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Originally Posted by Quadzilla

For me, I don't feel a problem skiing Speed Radicals and TLT 6 boots. However, TLT 6 boots have a fair amount of toe rocker and pin holes would be higher than maybe a Scarpa et et, so maybe shims with Dynafit rockered boots is a non issue. ?

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Yes, different boots have differences in the relative position of the toe and heel fittings but higher toe fittings would give you more ramp unless the heel fittings were also higher.

Like SFB said some folks like it or some folks don't know that they might like it better with a more neutral ramp.

When we are talking about shimming radical st, does the shim from b and d replace the little black dynafit shim that comes from the factory or go on in addition to, anyone know what I'm talking about?

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Originally Posted by volklpowdermaniac

When we are talking about shimming radical st, does the shim from b and d replace the little black dynafit shim that comes from the factory or go on in addition to, anyone know what I'm talking about?

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It goes in addition

so when dynafit says " 6mm delta with vulcan boot" , how much different is that with other boots? Has anybody compared (especially interested in cochise comparison)

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Originally Posted by AaronWright

Where did you come up with the 5 to 1 ratio? Almost everyone I know who skis on Dynafits(Vertical and Radical ST/FT) likes a shim under the toe better, even if they've been blissfully skiing on them for years. There are outliers and that is usually because of different anatomy and body mechanics of some skiers. It's usually very easy to spot the skiers on high ramp tech bindings, they have a very distinctive form.

Just because you make a proclamation in bro-brah speak doesn't make it true. I have a friend who is a ski tech for Head and he says that often racers will complain about a ski like it's the tune or the ski or something, he will shim the toes and they all of a sudden love the ski. It's a real issue for a lot of people and I don't believe it's only for 1/5th of skiers.

Of course they're are a lot of other variables but this one is a very easy fix for a lot of people and it helps them ski better.

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brah that would be a totally unscientfic ob from skiing and mounting bro brahs dynawhompers 40 hours a week the past decades worth of winters.
the real # is probably way higher.
but yeah i can't believe them dynabros are ignoring a few gazzilion type A nal need an excuse for their poor skiing for even longer:rolleyes2