Home Protection/Firearms Thread

I read somewhere, it was a long time ago so I might be wrong on this, that the accidental shootings from guns kept in the home far outnumbered the recorded instances of a homeowner with a gun protecting his property from an intruder.

One of the many things holding me back from getting a gun is I don’t think I could shoot someone without hesitating for at least a second. That probably won't be true for the intruder. But at the same time I wouldn't want to have a gun and be ready to shoot it without hesitation. What if I mistake a family member for an intruder and lack of hesitation puts me in the accident column.

Date Dogg, I live on the first floor of an appartment complex. I keep a 20g Mossberg shotgun in my bedroom closet and a box of bird shot on my dresser. It's not explicitly against the rules in my lease, but may be covered by the "no explosives" clause. I'm willing to risk the highly unlikely scenario that my lease will be voided to be prepared for the other highly unlikely scenario that my life will be endangered by an armed burgler. With the generally smaller sizes of appartments, I feel that a firearm should either be stored loaded or stored with ammunition close by and easily accessible.

I pretty much stick to grenades these days. ;)

I have shot a ridiculous number of weapons and got pretty good marks, but I still don't own a weapon and I live in the heart of Denver's hood. Not sure if I ever will...although I have heard the dogs (rotweilers and pitbulls) in the alley going nuts at times and formulated attack/defense plans in case somebody were sneaking around out there. I do own some pretty insane home remodeling equipment that's inside. Probably worse than being hit by a bullet. :D

I'm personally not opposed anybody else having weapons at all, but for some reason they scare me. I just feel like having it around would be more of a liability than a benefit. And I'm no gun JONG, (I was in the artillary for the Army National Guard, I think I went 20 for 20 in the foxhole (sandbags to steady the rifle), but I suck at the prone, maybe 13 for 20).

In school we had several PSA (public service announcement) projects. One issue was guns in the home. The stat that really stood out to me at that time was that a gun in the home was 6 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder.

No worries nate, I thought you might have meant shedding some light...

I completely agree re: using your head when out in the wide world. I actually have a little theory that people with CCW's get in statistically more incidents than other folks cause it clouds their judgement. Similar to Grizz's thread, I think he did 100% right the only thing a shotgun would've provided is an extra margin "if." Like I said at the start a gun is no substitute for a brain.

Lurch is also correct that statistically you're more likely to be injured/die by a firearm if one is in your home. Don't be a statistic. That is why using your brain and taking a safety class is so important. Guns and ignorance is wickedly dangerous. Also, if you're a rageoholic drunk or your wife is = no guns

FNG- Unless it says that ammo is an "explosive" you're fine. Ammo is not an explosive (definitionally).

Meat: just wear your Captain skimpy space outfit and scare them off.

I want to make it explicitly clear if I haven't:

YOU ARE WAY BETTER OFF NOT HAVING GUNS IF YOU'RE NOT WILLING TO GO THROUGH THE EFFORT OF SAFELY OWNING, USING AND STORING THEM.

A GUN IS A DEADLY WEAPON AND YOU DON'T POINT THEM AT THINGS YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY.

Oh, in addition to the shotgun, I keep one of these in my closet just in case I need backup.

fucking sweet Donny Bravo FNG! How much?

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Originally Posted by FNG

I keep one of these in my closet just in case I need backup.

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Dude, Punani's been out-of-the-closet for years now.

I keep a Sig 228 9mm around. It a great gun, very will built.
I'm thinking of buying a Benelli Nova 12ga with a 24 in barrel just as a general shotgun. I keep a couple of other guns around, all locked up as they should be.

I read somewere that the "more likely to shot a family member then someone breaking into your home" thing was some what off as it added in things like murders (remember your more likely to be murdered by a family member or someone else you know then someone you don't)

I remember two articles concerning this very topic. In one article, they shot a mock sheetrock wall with various sizes of shot with an 870 riot shotgun and found the maximum size to safely use(for neighbors, children in the next room) was #6 birdshot. In another article(by Chuck Taylor, one of the leading .45 experts in the world), recommended 7 1/2 or #8 birdshot used with a coachgun-style shotgun(seen in almost any John Wayne that had a stagecoach scene). Much safer, easy to use by anyone, less muzzle velocity than your hunting shotgun...

Guns are for pussies

I have three big dogs, a baseball bat , a phone line to a very aggresive police department and some self-confidence.

That's all I need.

I would believe that...even small shot (9, 8 7.5) tears shit up at close range. I wouldn't be surprised if it would go right through sheetrock. The benefit smaller shot sizes have is they do not carry energy downrange super far.

don't shoot through the wall to your kid's room.


ICE- you forgot to mention the Tomcat. That stacks the deck for you. :yourock:

A brief Canadian perspective:

Compared to the USofA Canada had more long guns per capita and way fewer handguns (restricted since the 1930s).

To purchase a gun in Canada you need a Possession and Aquisition License (PAL). You get one by taking a course (30 hours) and a background check. There's an unrestricted (long guns) and restricted (handguns) PAL.

With the PAL it's easy to buy or sell a gun -- you just call the Canadian Firearms Registry and report the transfer (all guns are registered).

Guns must be stored unloaded and unable to be fired. Ammunition must be stored away from the gun. No loaded guns at home here.

Guns must be transported unloaded. No loaded guns in your truck.

Handguns need an Authorization To Transport (ATT) to move the gun from one place to another. You might have a 3 year ATT to go between your house and a gun club.

Carry permits for handguns are rare. You need to demonstrate a need. Armoured car guards and prospectors are the most common.

Handguns can not be used for any kind of hunting.

AR-15s are restricted (like a handgun) even though they're a rifle.

Since BC is a logging province a lot of guys keep a pickeroon under the bed:
http://www.logosol.com/images/produc...keroon_200.jpg

I grew up around guns all the time, hunting a shooting. My father is an avid hunter and gun collector. He has just about anything you could want, assault types, handguns, shotguns, old black powder rifles. Its funny that I don't own a single gun! Just don't have a need for one right now. Now I'm rethinking this and maybee just maybee I head down to the Totally Awesome Gun Store here in Salt Lake and get me some of that! :wink:

I thing I'll go get my licence to carry as well.

all i got are the two guns god gave me. kinda sucks that i hafta wear short sleeves all the time. you know, cause i dont have my concealed weapons permit yet.

You uh, seen the weight room? ahh its ok ill find it.

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Originally Posted by Cornholio

also carried a colt sawed-off 10 gauge. My guess is it would be tough to find a more trusty hole-maker than that thing.

It's in our basement, but it's at least 100 years old. It's only use would be to scare the shit out of someone, which isn't a very useful use for a gun.

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I thought that WAS the primary purpose of a gun....but I'm Canadian so WTF do I know.

Wait being Canadian I thought the primary purpose of a gun was duck/goose hunting.

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Originally Posted by Tippster

Yep. More guns per capita than any country on earth.

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That sounds pretty fishy, or is that just more legal registered guns which is then just a fuzzy stat. Of course if you read this on the internet we know it's true. Wait I just read it there now it must be true.

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Originally Posted by lemon boy

What load you shoot is dependant on where you live, if you have kids etc... etc... Anything from 00 Buck through 5s should do you though.

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Are those the prefered shot sizes for kids playing with your guns? Or are those the prefered shot sizes for shooting kids?

I recently bought a Benelli Nova 12 gauge

http://www.benelliusa.com/firearms/i...small-guns.jpg

for trap shooting, ya know,

http://www.tcsa.info/images/trap.jpg

shooting flying orange clay targets with a 12 gauge shotgun. Smoove shotgun, lightest recoil I've felt with a 12 gauge. You can shoot all day without your shoulder getting sore.

It's a rush everytime you pull the trigger and turn a target into powder. Almost as addicting as snowboarding. :cool:

Fun game, each shooter on the firing line takes a turn at a target. Best score out 25 wins the round. If any Utards want to try it, let me know.

I keep it locked up and inaccessible whenever I'm not either going to or coming from the trap range. I never buy shotgun shells before I need them either. Just seems like common sense to me. If I can access my weapon easily, so can a potential attacker. If an intruder were to find my gun, they'd see it was trigger locked and there were no shells to fire even it weren't locked.

Oh, and my German Shepard mix would've torn him to bits before he ever found my gun.

If you want something to protect you, get a dog. If you want to shoot something, get a gun.

Just my $0.02

I just sold the Mossberg 500 to my brother cause it freaked my girl out too much. It was a short barrel turkey gun with a pistol grip...and camo paint, aaah yeah.

LB is right about the pistol grip reducing stability and control, but I felt that it made the gun a bit more manageable. Accuracy isn't much of an issue w/ a shotgun, especially a short barrel.

I'm not too concerned about not having one around, but I'd like to get the GF a little more comfortable about them being around, cause I wouldn't mind having another one. I don't have a problem w/ shotguns or rifles, but I think handguns are dangerous and pretty pointless. I don't want to kill anybody, I just want to stun or hurt them before they can hurt somebody I care about. I always thought it would be good to alternate between rock salt and shot. That way, if you have to shoot, you can hit 'em w/ the non-lethal, and if they aren't smart enough to stop, the next shot will do some damage.

Good info on gun technology and safety from all of you - well done.

I have only a couple of comments to add -

Baseball Bats as home defense. Dumb idea on two fronts. First is the use of a bat requires that you place yourself within reaching distance of the intruder - too damn close people! Physical separation is your friend in any fight - you cannot get hurt if they cannot touch you.

Second issue with bats is the amount of room it takes to swing one with enough force to be effective. In otherwords - they suck in a hallway or door opening. Try this - take your kid's whiffle bat and walk around your home swinging it at full reach - you will find that you more than likely will hang it up on the walls, furniture, light fixtures - you get the drift. Now picture swinging at the bad guy and you hit the wall behind you instead - not good.

I would concur that in order of effectiveness - you consider the following -

Loud ass dog.
Screamer of a wife.
Phone in the bedroom.
Lock(s) on the bedroom doors (from the inside okay)
You yelling out loud that the cops have been called (not that you are or will be calling - but that they HAVE been called)
Shotgun and the knowledge to use it wisely.

Oh yeah - make sure your house is locked. Almost half of home invasions or burglaries happen via an unlocked door or window.

Here's the "Bowling for Columbine" post everyone has been waiting for.

First, I'll commend everyone who has suggested gun safety courses, gun safes, trigger locks, not having guns in households with children, and all the other sound advice. Second, I recognize guns as tools for hunting, farming, and other pursuits - never in my life have I needed one or really wanted one, but I have never ben a hunter or law enforcement official in the military. I did grow up in some horrible neighborhoods where I was around guns a bunch, had guns pointed at me, had friends with gun shot injuries, and had friends go to jail for having guns. Easy to surmise that I have always been around guns for all the wrong reasons and never the "right" reasons.

Look at the facts about keeping guns in your home: http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/factsheets/ You are more likely to have that gun used against you than in your defense. You are more likely to be victim of a gun crime. All kinds of bad shit is correllated with gun ownership. Granted, the stats for all the responsible, sensible gun owner we have around here are mixed with the stats of all the meth-head pschos, still thems the facts. Plus, how do a lot of criminals get guns? They steal them from legal, responsible gun owners.

My home protection alternatives to buying a gun will be an alarm system with a panic button that makes mega noise and have asign on my lawn that denotes that security. A dog. Serious home fortification: deadbolts, shatterproof glass, timer lights, and spiky bushes. Does it make you feel as safe? maybe not, but are the odds more in your favor? Yes.

Nothing is going to make anyone 100% safe and I feel that the safety gains possible from gun ownership are more than negated by the hazards. It's like how SUVs are safe because they are big, but that also makes them more likely to roll and harder to stop.

Not meant to flame, just presenting the other side of the coin.

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Originally Posted by Parvo Pup

Screamer of a wife.
.

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This should have its own thread

what I need is a good bear gun, I mean people I can deal with, but bears scare the shit out of me, they are the fishermans version of avalanches. Any advice on bear guns?

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Originally Posted by ak_powder_monkey

what I need is a good bear gun, I mean people I can deal with, but bears scare the shit out of me, they are the fishermans version of avalanches. Any advice on bear guns?

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Any good shotgun loaded with one of these

http://www.remington.com/images/ammo/slugger_hv_big.jpg

shot through a slug barrel should suffice. 7/8 oz. of lead moving at 1227 MPH (1800 feet/second) = dead bear.

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Originally Posted by Platinum Pete

Here's the "Bowling for Columbine" post everyone has been waiting for.

First, I'll commend everyone who has suggested gun safety courses, gun safes, trigger locks, not having guns in households with children, and all the other sound advice. Second, I recognize guns as tools for hunting, farming, and other pursuits - never in my life have I needed one or really wanted one, but I have never ben a hunter or law enforcement official in the military. I did grow up in some horrible neighborhoods where I was around guns a bunch, had guns pointed at me, had friends with gun shot injuries, and had friends go to jail for having guns. Easy to surmise that I have always been around guns for all the wrong reasons and never the "right" reasons.

Look at the facts about keeping guns in your home: http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/factsheets/ You are more likely to have that gun used against you than in your defense. You are more likely to be victim of a gun crime. All kinds of bad shit is correllated with gun ownership. Granted, the stats for all the responsible, sensible gun owner we have around here are mixed with the stats of all the meth-head pschos, still thems the facts. Plus, how do a lot of criminals get guns? They steal them from legal, responsible gun owners.

My home protection alternatives to buying a gun will be an alarm system with a panic button that makes mega noise and have asign on my lawn that denotes that security. A dog. Serious home fortification: deadbolts, shatterproof glass, timer lights, and spiky bushes. Does it make you feel as safe? maybe not, but are the odds more in your favor? Yes.

Nothing is going to make anyone 100% safe and I feel that the safety gains possible from gun ownership are more than negated by the hazards. It's like how SUVs are safe because they are big, but that also makes them more likely to roll and harder to stop.

Not meant to flame, just presenting the other side of the coin.

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I don't disagree with you on the home defense methods, and do agree that in more cases than not, safety gains from gun ownership are negated by hazards, but not in all cases. In my opinion, guns are and should be a last resort. So if you are looking to defend your home, you should have exhausted all of your other options (as you've mentioned) as a deterrent. A gun for defending your home is the last line of defense, and not really a deterrent, as in my opinion you shouldn't be waving it around, if you take it out you should intend to use it. A gun, rather, is an end solution, the burglar will not be running away down the street, they will be lying on your living room floor being attended to by EMTs.

I also couldn't agree more in that the vast majority of guns in homes are a huge liability, and really serve no place (outside of hunting/sport shooting). The guns kept in homes for the sole purpose of self defense most often lead to trouble. However, the fault is not in the gun, or owning it, it is in the knowledge of the gun owner. Having said that, a gun for the purpose of self defense, IN THE RIGHT HANDS, is completely acceptable and there is nothing wrong with promoting it when appropriate. I disagree with simply going through the safety course however, I think regular use of the gun is a very good idea not only in order to familiarize yourself with your weapon, but also to practice with it. Say you took the safety course three years ago and haven't touched the gun since, how comfortable could you possibly be in using it to defend your home?

I was looking at shotguns when I turned 18 for a while... never did "pull the trigger" though. Here's an informative website I have saved from back then...

Shotguns for defense

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Originally Posted by boarderline

Any good shotgun loaded with one of these

http://www.remington.com/images/ammo/slugger_hv_big.jpg

shot through a slug barrel should suffice. 7/8 oz. of lead moving at 1227 MPH (1800 feet/second) = dead bear.

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You'll tear the shit out of your rifling if you shoot one of those through a slug barrel. You're looking for one of these:

http://www.remington.com/images/ammo/prcsbox.jpg

I was thinking more handgun for bear, I mean shot guns are hard to fish with

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Originally Posted by ak_powder_monkey

I was thinking more handgun for bear, I mean shot guns are hard to fish with

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Aren't you supposed to carry pepperspray for that purpose? A handgun is most likeley going to piss off mister bear, which is not good, and a shotgun is not easy to fish with, as you mentioned. Pepperspray seems like your best bet, but what do I know?

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Originally Posted by PaSucks

Aren't you supposed to carry pepperspray for that purpose? A handgun is most likeley going to piss off mister bear, which is not good, and a shotgun is not easy to fish with, as you mentioned. Pepperspray seems like your best bet, but what do I know?

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yea and I do carry pepperspray, its probably about as effective as a big handgun you basically wait untill the bear is on top of you. And hell I like to shoot stuff. Plus have you ever shot pepper spray it always blinds and chokes you also.

you're supposed to point it away from you, pow monkey. ;)

also, you've heard the joke about the fisherman...

A fisherman walks into a gun store in Alaska, and asks to see the biggest handgun they've got. When he sees the most powerful hand cannon the store has to offer, he immediately declares that he wants to buy it. The proprietor asks him what he wants with such a big gun. The fisherman replies, "Well, I'm going fishing, and I'm in grizzly bear territory, so i thought I'd equip myself properly." The proprietor says, "Oh, it's for bears. You're gonna want to file the sight off the end of it then." Puzzled, the fisherman asks how that would help the performance. "Oh, it won't help the performance," the proprietor responds, "but it'll sure hurt a lot less when the bear shoves it right up your ass."

The best way to get away from a bear is to bring a friend. When the bear charges, trip your friend and run like hell.

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Originally Posted by ak_powder_monkey

I was thinking more handgun for bear, I mean shot guns are hard to fish with

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you want a handgun get this:

yeah the world of hurt. a world we all yearn to enter. :rolleyes:

Akpm, You should have atleast a 454 Casul (a whole lotta pistol)for any type of brownie-----
and make shure to file off the front sight! then It wont hurt as much when the bear shoves it up your ass! :eek:



edit ;spelln'

Nate Dogg-

Looking back on my college days, I suddenly feel very strongly that

college buddies + liquid courage + any type of firearm + urban setting = total fucking bad idea.

You're in college, so your stuff isn't that nice. No one's going to be gunning for your place when there's the nice stuff right up the road. If you do get one, keep 'er chained up.

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Originally Posted by L7

That sounds pretty fishy, or is that just more legal registered guns which is then just a fuzzy stat. Of course if you read this on the internet we know it's true. Wait I just read it there now it must be true.

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Funny thing about the interweb, you can do searches....

http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/Cda-US.htm

I stand corrected.

On topic: I have lived my whole adult life (except for 2.5 blissful years in Vail) in the supposed murder Capitol of the western world: Downtown Washington, DC, and only recently in the "nice neighborhood." I have never - EVER had the need to defend myself with a gun. Good thing, too, since they're ill-eagle in the District of Columbia... yes, even shotguns. I do agree with the original post. If you feel the urge to "protect your family" with a gun, get a shotgun, but for God's sake don't act like you're under siege just because there's been a murder in the last year in your community.

This is America, dammit. People get killed here all the time... by people with guns. Less guns = less gun deaths, IMHO. It's not like the Brits are nicer to each other, they just don't automatically pull a gun when they get pissed off. This whole cowboy mentality is feeding the fire. More guns = more gun-related crime = more guns for "protection" = more guns....

I'll guarantee you one thing: The possibility of your kid coming over to my house to play with my kid and getting shot, accidentally or not, by one of my guns is ZERO. If it was anything BUT zero I wouldn't be able to sleep as well as I do.

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Originally Posted by Cornholio

Nate Dogg-

Looking back on my college days, I suddenly feel very strongly that

college buddies + liquid courage + any type of firearm + urban setting = total fucking bad idea.

You're in college, so your stuff isn't that nice. No one's going to be gunning for your place when there's the nice stuff right up the road. If you do get one, keep 'er chained up.

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Cornholio,
I've already witnessed ignorant use of firearms and liquid courage, although not in an urban setting, and fortunately with no bad results. I do agree that it is a very risky proposition, and depending on the area I end up living with, and the number of roommates I have, it is unlikely I will feel compelled enough to buy one. I do think it is wise to leave that option open however. I realize my stuff isn't that nice, but there are enough cracked out loonys that fail to see that logic. Maybe it doesn't matter how nice my stuff is, but I prefer to stay out of the ER or worse if I do encounter one of those nuts. Still though, unlikely that I will purchase one, and if I keep one, you can be sure I will have gone through the necessary steps to keep it free from buddies w/liquid courage.

Why am I not surprised that this became a gun control thread? :rolleyes:

I'm not totally unsympathetic to the gun control argument but IMVHO it has a couple of "fatal flaws" that basically ruin the whole deal when talking about the US. I also think that the majority of gun control proposals do not address some fundamental issues and instead focus on what amounts to cosmetics/superficialities. eg: For going on a rampage a 12ga shotgun loaded with 00 buck is gonna kill way more people than an AK 74.

Regardless, I probably agree more than most would imagine with Michael Moore that it is the culture of fear and violence that is the root of our problems, not the guns.

Also, something to note, someone brought up the Brits. Protecting yourself and your home with violence is not a "right" there. No baseball bat or knives to an intruder. They have a very different cultural mentality that would not transfer to the US.

[Note: at certain sites I visit with a much "righter" population I usually end up arguing for some gun control]

Great thread, Lemon Boy. Really interesting to get everyone's perspective on this issue that I coincidentally have been giving some thought recently. I live in a super safe area. I can remember growing up and experiencing the tragedies of kids killing each other with their parents guns. Didn't hear too much about intruders killing homeowners. When I was very young (like 4 or 5) our apartment was buglarized while my parents, younger brother and I slept. Lots of stuff was stolen, but no one was harmed. It could have been different if there was a gun in the house. I now have kids and enjoy the peace of mind that comes with not ownig a gun. Kids can roam the house freely and I don't have to worry. I have a neighbor who is a state trooper and has a daughter the same age as mine. My daughter let herself into his house once and he had left his service weapon on the kitchen table. She was sensible enough not to touch it, but he flipped when he found her in there ( more angry with himself for screwing up than at her but she didn't see it that way). That innocent mistake by a responsible gun owner could have had a different result and that scares me. That said, I do think about buying a gun to replace the crowbar I keep under my bed for home protection. After recent knee surgery, while still in a brace, I had a series of night terror dreams from which I woke up literally paralized, that were very vivid and involved and intruder entering my home and taking my two daughters. I had these dreams every day for a week while I was taking oxycontin, feeling vulnerable after surgery, and had just put my 12 yr old dog down, but they were powerful, and have made me start to consider options I had previously discounted. I appreciate all the info and perspectives here. Sorry for the long rant.