A new breakthrough in Beacon tech

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Originally Posted by cololi

I wouldn't be suprised if there are major breakthroughs overthe next 3 years. I think a beacon wil lbe on the market that utilizes GPS to essentially track a person and also be able to lock in to other beacons and create a triangulation reading of each person in the group. The key will be the software. I see it working like this:

Each beacon has a unique ID that can be read by other beacons. You program your beacon with the others in your group at the trail head, much like a remote control for a tv. For older beacons, the device creates a generic ID. The older beacons would not be able to give off a GPS reading, but can still be searched by the beacon based on the signal. The GPS unit on board is able to store the other beacons data as you continue on your tour. The GPS is active until it looses its signal, then the beacons work together to triangulate each others lcoation. The other beacons (if not buried,) are able to place a geographic location to the buried beacon(s) and give an exact location, along with elevation differential. On search mode, the searching beacon can us the data to send you in the right direction and at the right buried elvation.

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Uh... did you miss that whole part about GPS now penetrating snow? :wink:

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Originally Posted by Summit

Uh... did you miss that whole part about GPS now penetrating snow? :wink:

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Originally Posted by cololi

The GPS is active until it looses its signal, then the beacons work together to triangulate each others lcoation. The other beacons (if not buried,) are able to place a geographic location to the buried beacon(s) and give an exact location, along with elevation differential.

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:wink:

1234567890

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Originally Posted by cololi

The GPS is active until it looses its signal, then the beacons work together to triangulate each others lcoation. The other beacons (if not buried,) are able to place a geographic location to the buried beacon(s) and give an exact location, along with elevation differential. On search mode, the searching beacon can us the data to send you in the right direction and at the right buried elvation.

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This would only work if the victim were buried at the last second. What if the GPS loses signal while the victim is submerged in an active slide and then continues on down the slope?

I really like the embedded ID tag idea. Multiples can be very tricky and this could improve the process immensely.

I guess the idea cololi was suggesting was a combo GPS/AvyBeacon where the above ground beacons would establish GPS locations and the buried beacons would be triangulated via regular Avy frequencies. Not sure how this helps most rescue scenarios.

In any event, GPS sucks too much juice to be useful. On transmit, Avy beacon can last for days or weeks.

Not to mention GPS/Avy/beaconID/triangulation violates the KISS principles.
If triangulation is done between beacons, one faulty beacon or one beacon in a bad location could throw off the final location. Better to have all beacons independently find all transmitting beacons via flux line algorithms.

I think the new Ortovox S1 graphic display is more than enough specificity. Just give us a simple map of multiple beacon signals with estimated distance and direction and rescues will be sooo much easier. Can't wait to see how these things perform - will be getting one for sure once they are proven.

I've spoken to a product manager from OV (Germany) and they're not bringing them out until 06/07. this new model only has 2 antennae I think and folks from Seidl Electonics (they developed the Pieps DSP) reckon that what OV wants to do is impossible without radar technology.

Ortovox or any one of the others needs to be picked up by ACR or one of those rescue beacon giants if we wanna see some real leaps and bounds in technology.

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Originally Posted by Lori

I've spoken to a product manager from OV (Germany) and they're not bringing them out until 06/07. this new model only has 2 antennae I think and folks from Seidl Electonics (they developed the Pieps DSP) reckon that what OV wants to do is impossible without radar technology.

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Yo, Lori.
What do you refer with OV? Ortovox?

The S1 seems to be "for sale" in couple places allready.

None of them have answered any inquiries about aviability,though.
In one place it was,like "ships in 3-4weeks",wich usually means:"don´have it,won´t get it."

http://www.montanarasport.ch/Lawinen/Lawinen.htm

and

http://www.westside-sport.com/Ortovox_S1.3361.0.html

yeah with OV i meant ortovox. the best beacon they ever made was the F1 fokus, which has a reach of 40 meters (as opposed the the barryvox, which I also work with but it only has a reach of no more than 30 meters.

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Originally Posted by Lori

yeah with OV i meant ortovox. the best beacon they ever made was the F1 fokus, which has a reach of 40 meters (as opposed the the barryvox, which I also work with but it only has a reach of no more than 30 meters.

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Have you tried the SOS F1-ND? Beats the OV F1 hands down.

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Originally Posted by Meathelmet

The S1 seems to be "for sale" in couple places
allready.

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The US stores I talked to suggested Christmas with a big MAYBE attached.

cololi-
Your schem locates where the beacon was last above the surface. Good, but they could be buried 10s or 100s of meter from that point.

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Originally Posted by cj001f

The US stores I talked to suggested Christmas with a big MAYBE attached.

cololi-
Your schem locates where the beacon was last above the surface. Good, but they could be buried 10s or 100s of meter from that point.

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Sent few mails to some of the companies mentioned.

Apparently Ortovox has changed the processor manufacturer, and the transreciever is expected earliest in the first quarter of 2006.

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Originally Posted by Summit

Have you tried the SOS F1-ND? Beats the OV F1 hands down.

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never heard of this model. I don't think it came of the European market. After the F1 we got the M1, M2 and X1, all three where big flops.

Is this SOS F1-ND analog or digital?

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Originally Posted by cj001f

cololi-
Your schem locates where the beacon was last above the surface. Good, but they could be buried 10s or 100s of meter from that point.

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The idea is that the beacons would be able to track each other, using GPS when there is a signal and using triangulation when a signal is lost. This would utilize the avaliable information in terms of location before a slide happens. The beacons would essentially be able to trace the victim as theslide carried them away and then instantly give you a pinpoint location (at this point, using triangualtion because the GPS signal would have been lost) of the victim once the victim stops moving. The screen would display the location of the buried victim and the distance, elevation diffence, etc. between the searcher and the buried victim and direct the searcher(s) in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by Summit

Have you tried the SOS F1-ND? Beats the OV F1 hands down.

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No I've actually never heard of this model. I don't think it came on the market here in Austria or Germany.

Have you tried the new Pieps DSP? It's the first beacon with 3 antennae which gives you data on how many people are buried within a certain area (in meters). That info is very useful. Also once you've located a person with the probe, you can turn the signal off and concentrate on any other people buried, which makes the job so much easier.

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Originally Posted by Lori

which makes the job so much easier.

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very poor choice of words there...that's not what I meant.

SOS is a Canadian company that makes excellent gear.

I rely on my F1ND for SAR missions.

It is like an OV F1 but much easier to use with more LEDs, more range settings, and a range down indicator.
http://www.survivalonsnow.com/pages/frameset.html

It is an analog with DSP

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Originally Posted by Summit

SOS is a Canadian company that makes excellent gear.

I rely on my F1ND for SAR missions.

It is like an OV F1 but much easier to use with more LEDs, more range settings, and a range down indicator.
http://www.survivalonsnow.com/pages/frameset.html

It is an analog with DSP

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Wow the stated range is 90 meters, that's pretty impressive. I wouldn't want to work with an analogue beacon any more though. Most people have much shorter search times with digital beacons, but of course regular practice is required with every beacon if you want to be of any help.

Just so happens I'm trying to figure out which transceiver to buy. Any advice for a novice to backcountry skiing? I understand practice is needed to become competent in using all the available models.

Crash
There is a lot of great information in the Slide Zone.

Summit will try and convince you that analog F1s are the best, most everybody else will simply steer you towards the BCA Tracker DTS, which is what I've used for the past 7 years, through 3 model upgrades... The only thing that has actually interested me somewhat is this new Ortovox, but with their track record, I'll wait until the bugs get worked out.

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Originally Posted by BakerBoy

Summit will try and convince you that analog F1s are the best, most everybody else will simply steer you towards the BCA Tracker DTS, which is what I've used for the past 7 years, through 3 model upgrades... The only thing that has actually interested me somewhat is this new Ortovox, but with their track record, I'll wait until the bugs get worked out.

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You sir continue to fish for conflict with me. I don't have any beef with you. I don't get it. Chill out.

I most certainly would not tell most people to get an analog beacon. Most people (90+%) are better off with a digital or analog/digital beacon and will preffer that.

I would say the SOS analog beacon is far nicer to use than the Ortovox or Pieps analog beacons. Analog works for me.

I personally am not a huge fan of the BCA Tracker but that will likely change based on their next year's design if what their reps told me turns out to be true. BCA is an oustanding company. The current BCA beacon would not yield as good of results in my hands as a different beacon. That is me.

I think the majority of people are best off with a BCA Tracker. This is because the majority of people do not practice but once or twice a season if at all. I think most of the remaining would be best off with a Barryvox, M2, or Pieps DSP (I left out Arva because I'm not familiar with them).

I'm pretty sure I could tell my 6 year old cousin that the Tracker is a hide-and-seek game and they'd have it figured out in a few minutes on their own. Of course some of the more advanced Tracker (or any dual antena beacon) technique like jump-star or multiple burials requires more practice to be fast and proficient.

It's all personal though. People should try the beacons out and see which one they think is best for them.
[/steps off soapbox]

I'm still excited by the prospect of this scifi tricorderesque S1. We'll see if it pans out.

FWIW, I trained a bit yesterday with my 3 family beacons (all of them ortovox, I've found them with big discounts in different times), and X1 was WAY more user-friendly and efficient than F1 and M2

From someone who should know US Availability of the S1 is suggested as "mid year 2006" which as I take it means not in time for any reasonable portion of the ski season.

For Beacons get a Barryvox or Tracker. They are broadly similar in operation and faster than any analog with a competent operator. Competence on them also requires far less practice. Not a bad thing.

now what we need to do is lug around an active sonar in our packs. That'll penetrate water and snow like nobody's business. Break it out and ba-WAH! find people from PINGS!

I sat through a meeting with XXX company yesterday under non-disclosure and I will have a hell of a lot more to add to this once I am able to.


I thought of this thread and discussion during the whole meeting. :biggrin:

edit: don't hold your breath on info, be a while, unfortunately :mad:

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Originally Posted by crash55

Just so happens I'm trying to figure out which transceiver to buy. Any advice for a novice to backcountry skiing? I understand practice is needed to become competent in using all the available models.

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Take an avalanche course. Try out some different beacons in the class, then make your decision.

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Originally Posted by crash55

Just so happens I'm trying to figure out which transceiver to buy. Any advice for a novice to backcountry skiing? I understand practice is needed to become competent in using all the available models.

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This novice got a Tracker. But certainly look around.

I sort of feel like I wandered into a swirling Katrina-like maelstrom of controversy, but thanks guys for the advise. I may be a little closer to making a decision! Hey Buzz, when do you get to lose the cloak of secrecy? :confused:

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Originally Posted by crash55

I sort of feel like I wandered into a swirling Katrina-like maelstrom of controversy, but thanks guys for the advise. I may be a little closer to making a decision! Hey Buzz, when do you get to lose the cloak of secrecy? :confused:

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Longer than you have to get a beacon this year. It will be a year at least.


Go with proven technology right now. We don't want to have to call you Crashtestdummy55. ;)

dude get a Tracker before they sell out. don't believe the hype about a product that NOBODY has even tried (S1).

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Originally Posted by Hugh Jardon

dude get a Tracker before they sell out. don't believe the hype about a product that NOBODY has even tried (S1).

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I usually make it a point to let those who know better than me, or are more anxious to seem like they do, to test drive new stuff first. I decided to go with the Pieps DSP. Thanks for the moral support.

Crash, make sure you got the one with new software and all that stuff because I heard it was changed for this year. If you can't verify it's the new version internally, return it and get one where you can verify that it is the new version. Call Liberty Mountain they can probably help you. I hope you didn't get the one with the compass and stuff. They are blowing them out in the US since nobody will buy them in Europe, or at least that's the rumor on the street!

It doesn't have the compass, but I better check whether it has new software or not. What do you know about the old software?

the new f9000 version will soon come with a transporter beam that will bring you straight into lesbian heaven and then through time back to the top of you line when you are done. the only problem is reaching the switch once you are buried.

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