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how can a rower tell good form from bad form? I was rowing alone a bit, and thought I was killing it. Then I went out a few times with an older guy, and he pointed out several basic flaws in my technique ( not rolling oars in my hand, elbows way out to the side, etc).
I plan on reading a few books this winter, which should help me understand correct technique.
IE, how can I look at my hip mobility and seated pelvic lumbar mobility? And tell when it is good vs. bad?
Well there's lots of things you could do - hire a coach, join a club, etc., but probably the easiest is just watch video and try to emulate what you see. Set up a cam and film yourself and compare yourself would be the next step But reading and understanding the concepts (there's not that many) should be the first step. There's a number of rowing forums (and concept2 forums in particular) out there.
I assume you're rowing a single. If you can get some time rowing in a boat with others (double, pair, quad, four, eight), you will learn a huge amount from that experience, because it more or less forces you to row in unison with the other people in the boat.Quote:
Originally Posted by mobygrape
oh, I assumed he was talking about the erg.
I figured the phrase "went out a few times with an older guy" implied someplace other than a gym. Unless "went out with" meant "dated."Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman
ok. I was unclear. I was talking about rowing a single. Not dating an older guy :nonono2: Good info, I'll pick up a couple of books. I got a video, just have not had the time to watch it lately.
edig: and check out the row2k or concept2 forums.
LH can tell you more about scull tech. check out this vid. Koven was a very strong dude but you can see how quiet he is, no wasted effort, all drive, super clean.Quote:
Originally Posted by mobygrape
it doesn't matter if its the erg, single, or sweep, bad tech will fry your back, if your sliding back and forth and you never notice motion over your sit bones it is coming from your lumbar spine= a matter of time before you can't stand straight. the timing of the leg drive and your lats protects you, shooting your ass means the timing is wonky
having some drills and a coach to give you some direction will help a ton, its as much developing a feel for whats right for you as it is a technique, but you kind of have know what habits will f you up
have fun
If you are brave enough, post it up. Sounds like there are a couple of people that know what they are talking about and can probably give some pointers. If you get another vid, try and get one both from the side and from the stern so that we can see what is happening from 2 angles. There are different styles for rowing but there are some universal tenets that must be followed no matter what style you use. Lots of drills out there that you can do to work on certain aspects of your stroke. Anything in particular that you are having problems with?Quote:
Originally Posted by mobygrape
Squaring/feathering: happens at the fingers, not the wrist.
Elbows: Out but up at the finish, don't drop them in towards your body (weaker position). The wrist should be flat.
KT: Good example. Jamie K was very smooth. I liked how he rowed.
All true. J.K. was a smooth rower. Small guy to be a world champion. Had heart. That video also shows the best part about rowing: the more it looks like you are just taking a nice little row the more misery you are in. The movement of the boat and flopping around retards your ability to exert leverage on the oar and wastes energy. The guys in that video are at such an absurd level of performance but look calm as can be.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdom-tele
The biggest difference on an erg v. the water is that a boat RUNS under you. I.E. you can don't have to pull yourself up to the catch with your hamstrings. Tired hamstrings on the erg = sore lower back. Sore lower back = bad technique = injury. So on the erg think about letting the handle pull you up. It doesn't really but thinking about it decreases the strain on the hammies.
Simple erg technique is to think about firing your muscles in order of power. at the catch, with shins perp. to foot stretches (or there abouts- but not past your ankles) lock the trunk to the hips and fire your legs, as your hands (arms straight) begin to pass your knees during the leg drive phase open the back with your back up and begin the finish half of the stroke. YOu want the handle to hit your right under your tits. Elbows finish out, shoulder blades contracted. Now you'll some rowers who use more of a "C" technique. THis doesn't really employ a powerful back and upright finish. Some people can do it. Others can't. For a newbie i'd steer well clear. THe strong back finish is more stable. Pop the hands out and roll back up to the catch in the reverse order. Slowing your ass down as you approach the catch.
As noted above shooting the ass out without really driving the handle is the #1 mistake. A drill is to sit at the catch and just pop the first 8 inches of leg drive. Over and over till you get that locked feeling. (not recommended- doing this on the square for 6 miles. I still have scars).
its really the enjoyable part of anything, rowing, skinning, ski, hike, climb, whatever, every time out you learn a little more, you dial in your ability to reduce the unnecessary effort while taking yourself to higher levels, those days when it just flows are what keep you coming backQuote:
Originally Posted by lionelhutz
Never realized my gym had a good rowing machine til this thread. Gave it a shot tonight, really good workout.
Head of the Charles this weekend.
i've been mixing in 1000m stints in between lifting sets the last few weeks. i run 5+ miles 4 days a week, swim 1+ mile 2 days, climb, bike etc, etc, but im toast after about 20 minutes on that fucking machine.
You racing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazderati
I loved racing at the charles but that was mostly because our trailer somehow always was parked next to some lightweight women's team's trailer. Scott you may have been a shitty coach but you did have an eye for top ground spandex booty. and no...crew girls aren't cute...but it beat being next to the Brown heavyweights. Those girls would eat your children.
We did some erging during off season training for swim team. Definitely a good workout. My first 'real' job had an erg in the gym downstairs, so I'd spend most lunch hours on that. I wish my current gym had one erg instead of any of the 37 stairmasters, 28 ellipticals, 42 treadmills, and 3 spin bikes (alright, I like the spin bikes too). I was never great (no real formal training), but if I recall, I was sub 7 for a 2K, and could do 500s in the 1:30s.
i always used it on the highest resistance and was in the low 2:00 for 500. i never really thought about the momentum of the wheel, makes sense. i usually row after hard leg workout days, and then the next day my legs are crushed from the rowing. especially calves. I never learn.
edit: PJ 1:30 is fast, you are an animal. rest ya kook.
Just got off it after a week away traveling and chilling, man I am a slug.
Just got back on the Erg last night after two months off.
The pain.
The suffering.
Back on it tomorrow...
Fucker hurts, doesn't it? I was back on yesterday and tried to set a PB for 2000, went out really fast for me at 1:45 and from there it was straight downhill...dragged my ass to the finish with my tongue hanging out, no form, if it was a boat I probably would have drowned. Missed the PB by a mile but there was nothing there.
Again tomorrow, though.
Just spectating. I didn't realize there are coed teams (female cox and male rowers).Quote:
Originally Posted by lionelhutz
There are...and you know what's funny...women can't drive boats either. I can't tell you the number of times I've seen a woman coxswain drive into a bridge, giant orange buoy, other boat, or shore and say "I didn't see it."Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazderati
We once had to take a "12" to the dock because two female coxswains couldn't figure out how to fit two eights into a double wide lane.
Timely thread. Been having some questions about technique and training on the erg and you guys have touched on a bunch of them, thank you.
Lionel.
Setting of 2. That's insane, but what do i know? I'm going in tonight to see what a 2 feels like for 2 k. Can't imagine the stroke rate. Will post my findings tonight. I'm nervous to say the least. I have not rowed for months. I usually do this in the winter rain months when cycling just plain sucks. I guess it is the same philosophy as spinning on your bike ? I have not spent much more than about 2 dozen times on the erg total. I get the whole thing with the strong legs, strong arms weak back. Is 5 really too high for a 2 k sprint ?
Agreed, I've been using a C2 in the gym for years as a warm up and had no idea about some of these techniques. I set that sucker at 10 and try to keep the calorie counter between 1200 and 900 for two sets of 2K. Next time I'll try the lower setting and see what 500m looks like.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeAre
Went for a quick 4x500m interval sesh at the very end of my workout tonight. Dialed the damper down to 5, slowed the stroke rate way down, really focused on driving off the heels and I'll be damned if my splits weren't way better than they've ever been. and Ho-lee shit them glutes were burning. Fucking psyched on the erg again :yourock:
But why do I always slide backwards? Shitty timing? I mean the floor is slick and dusty and gross so I've taken to putting a couple of plates between the rear base of the erg and the wall so I stay put.
There is no need to keep it at a 5 for a 2k. It's unnatural. The design of the flywheel is to mimic the fact that when you row, the boat is still moving when you take your next stroke. So you aren't doing a pure deadlift with each stroke. So you want the flywheel to spin some through to the next catch. Somewhere between 2-4 is pretty comparable to what a boat would feel like. If you wanna exert more power, push harder with you legs off the catch.Quote:
Originally Posted by bad dancer
As for the sliding backwards...yea...ergs move.
For those just getting into I really strongly suggest the following workout.
Sit on the erg with you feet OUT of the straps. Just resting on the foot stretchers (footplate). Flip the screen so you can't see it. Set the wheel on 3 and row for 45 minutes. You'll learn a lot about rowing if you your feet aren't held down. Heck, I row my single with my feet out 60% of the time. really teaches you about how to finish and roll up to the catch.
So after about 6 months of the beast i took the plunge again. Set at 2 for a few quick sprints of 5oo and a light row and rest in between. For truth a different animal on the 2 setting. I am a complete slug right now. I actually gave up on the 2k row. Just stopped rowing knowing that I would have trouble even maintaining a decent pace for the duration. Embarrassed ? yes ! I'll try to keep up the workout routine on 2 for a couple more weeks. Think i need a but more power in the legs.
So here is a classic example of what it looks like to pull hard. Ignore the terrible commentary.
http://youtu.be/e-9_0xLgL_c
The key is how you can't tell how hard the dudes are pulling. No extra body movement. Just legs, back, arms repeat.
1:28 / 500 hurts no matter how big you are. The winner- watch how he stays smooth. No jerking back and forth.
What's also of note is that despite being generally beastly- few of these erg monsters win the single scull. Why? Because they have shitty technique on the water.This is good technique:
http://youtu.be/yH8GlPBbeUE
And this is GREAT technique:
http://youtu.be/sP0Q-qfUcfM
Damn that last one got exciting, the Aussies and French were pulling on 'em.
In the first clip, the winner #10 is a fucking animal. Nothing changes the whole damn time except near the end when he speeds it up and it looks like he starts smiling! Talk about a beast. #9 was looking great for a long time, he looked like a winner for the fist half but you could see him falling apart in the second half. Great effort though.
I already rowed once today, I almost feel like getting back on after that!
...nah...
Lionel,
Yes it was interesting rowing a few times now with the setting at 2. Can't seem to keep my splits low enough on that setting to get near my PB. I knocked it up to 4 the other day and was able to hold a 1: 40 for 100o metres. Just seemed more comfortable on 4. I more or less stopped at 1100 because I just plain old felt that i would not be able to maintain the split. My heart rate seems to be too high at this stage. maybe I just need more base and longer rowing times. Will keep plugging along. Damn F#%&& S@#$ piece of crap erg machine, I loath you.
Interesting to see Wadell not change his style from start to finish while his partner to the left sure dropped his bar later in the pull.
I've read anecdotes that rowing on 10 is a good way to destroy your back.
The erg sliding across the floor is most likely a stick-slip thing. If you have a much higher acceleration in one direction than the other you will slide. Which way? Backwards?
I rowed a sub 1:40 500m this week which I was happy with.
A 4 setting is reasonable for a 1000 meter piece. It also depends on the goal. I've rowed with the flywheel on a 2 when I was just doing an hour cruise or like 2x8ks. Then it wasn't about the split but rather about the heart rate. 140 for 60-90 minutes. Boring. If we were bumping up the pain I'd adjust the flywheel to like a 4. I think I did my best 2k at about a 4 and my best 6k around the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by bad dancer
Some of the 5000 and 10,000 meter times on the c2 website are insane. 18's and sub 40?
A million meters a yr seems to be the benchmark.
That's not really that impressive. A good college rower should tick off a 10k sub 40 at a 140-144 hr without too much trouble. Holding a sub 1:50/500meter split is the bench mark for a 10k.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cono Este
for a 6K - the benchmark is 20minutes which is 1:40/500m splits.
For the record a 19 something 6k really hurts and I never got there. 6k is just not going to work for a 6'0 185 lb rower. On a 2k I could crank the rating and use the shortness of my stroke to hold a 38-40. On a 6k you gotta cruise at like 28-32 and the big long guys are just going to HAMMER it.
Look at the national team testing results for open men
http://www.usrowing.org/NationalTeam...TTResults.aspx
There be some pain in those numbers.
A buddy of mine, Tim, was on the Canadian Olympic Team in the 80's (LA Olypics I recall).
He was too good a rower to win a Gold Medal!
Bizarre but true:
His younger brother, Patrick, was also on the team and he did win Gold.
The Canadians looked at the whole team, and at the opposition , and picked the crews that they thought would win the maximum amount of medals.
Tim was in their ultra elite group who were picked for the 4....but they came 4th.
His brother was not quite good enough for the 4 and was picked for the 8...they won Gold.
So...Tim was too good to win Gold...strange but true.
I wish I'd paid more attention to this thread the past few weeks. Friday morning, in an attempt to punish myself for Thursday's misdeeds, I hit the gym. I had a great workout. My deadlift is coming along nicely. I decided to finish with some sprints on the rowing machine. I also thought I might give "6" a try.
I got out of bed this morning for the first time in 48 hours. I still can't dress myself. Never have I torn the absolute fuck out of my lumbar in such a debilitating way. My lower back looks like it has a beer-belly. Never will I allow myself to sail right into the perfect storm of fatigue, overuse, and poor form. I am an idiot.
Ouch. Feel better.
Oh man am I sorry. Pain meds and muscle relaxers are your friends.Quote:
Originally Posted by BraddA
Thanks for this thread Ice. I have been hitting the machine at the gym. Avg 2:02 for 2000. Best 500 so far at 1:50. I am going to try switching the settings and keeping my feet out of the straps. I actually like it. Is there something wrong with me? I did race X-C skiing in high school, and liked that, this feels similar. Whatever, at least it isn't running.
I like the way the data is right there in front of you as you go along. I haven't done as much this fall as I wanted to what with traveling a lot and splitting my head wide open and all, but I just get into doing "re-row" of my best time each time, with the pace boat, and it goes right by. And sometimes it's the new best time.