The process for bonding materials that normally won't bond often requires moving from adhesives to a chemical bonding process to ensure adhesion and durability. I'm sure they found a way to make it work.Quote:
Originally Posted by SquawMan
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The process for bonding materials that normally won't bond often requires moving from adhesives to a chemical bonding process to ensure adhesion and durability. I'm sure they found a way to make it work.Quote:
Originally Posted by SquawMan
Apologies for not getting back sooner with some info - am just back from Jackson and they're laying it on thick with the day job...
In any case, the current word is that we've got 42 sets of skis arriving in this week - these will go out once a final QC check has taken place. I'm not sure as to what exactly this shipment will compile of, but I'd expect that it'll predominately be Surreals and Tablas, as most of the R's have already shipped. In terms of specifics, I'm afraid I can't say when particular peoples skis will arrive, but hopefully it shouldn't be too much longer as production issues now are sorted.
Thanks again for your continued patience and support,
Mikey
Mike@dbskis.com
Mikey - Just got off the phone with Stephan. Thanks for getting us connected.
Right guys, got some bad news i'm afraid. Apparently there was a miscommunication with regard to the last shipment that was meant to come in – all of the skis were GOODE rather than the DB’s. I’ve no idea why this is, and nor has our production scheduler, as the email trail below testifies.
Many apologies for feeding you all duff information. Am trying to get a handle on when we can expect a new batch, but as yet have heard nothing. Will push for an official communication to go out this week, as appreciate that people are getting restless.
Cheers,
Mikey
Mike@dbskis.com
hey boys
we were getting nervous too early. the 40 pairs of skis mentioned to
arrive in the us this week are only goode skis. it seems like there will
be no db skis available for shipment this week.
i am sorry we told you that 40 pairs would be ready to send out this
week. i know you passed this information on to customers just about to
cancel their orders and ask for refunds. i know this is just making it
even more difficult.
it would have been too nice to get this many skis. sorry about this.
roman
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Stephan,
According to the list I just received there are no DB skis in this
shipment. I will update you when I have more information.
Best Regards,
Peter Turner
These guys are burning every gram of customer good-will they ever had.
Are the skis being made in Europe or the US? The email says someting about the skis arriving in the US.
they should --not-- ship out a ski until they can guarantee the quality and the durability
skiing is dangerous enough without equipment failures
the last thing they need is a new customer's ski exploding down a couloir run in Chamonix because it wasn't made properly
p.s. when you guys finally get your Surreals, I'd love a side by side comparison with the '06 Volkl Mantras
I have to ask. Does anyone actually know what is happening?
I have convinced a friend to buy Surreals based on a Feb delivery and I think he is about to cancel.
Seriously, it would be much better if details of the actual problems were relayed to the people waiting for skis, rather than just putting the delivery date back by a month every month.
It also worries me a little that the information was passed onto customers who were about to cancel their orders. Is threatening to cancel likely to improve my chances of getting skis first?
Just getting pretty frustrated after ordering in early-September. My expected serial for my Tablas is #125, so even if 40 skis were delivered I doubt mine would be amongst them.
:(
Who the hell put sand in your vagina?Quote:
Originally Posted by SquawMan
You made (or not) you´r point in the first post allready,dumbass.
Do you work to K2 or something?
I second doodorf (?) here. I made my TR order in early-October, and my initial message was that I would receive skis in November, and that my skis would be in the first batch to be produced. I understand that all the production problems were unforeseen, and is something that is hard to predict. But when the delay is for almost a season one would expect some clear information about what is going on. The last official information we received was the 15th of december saying that "as a conservative (?!) estimate your skis will not be delivered until probably February". Even the sentence here is so ambiguous that it calls for all different kinds of interpretations. Then I get the information that there were 42 skis produced, but that mine were not among them (i.e I wasn't in the first batch after all). And now we get the information that the 40-something skis weren't DB's at all, they were Goode's.Quote:
Originally Posted by doofdoof
This just leaves me with the impression that everything is a complete mess.
I think people at DB can learn a lesson from the guys at PMGear. They had serious production problems as well. But Splat and others have been very straightforward with what is going on. "We had this problem, so now we are doing this". And so forth, all the time keeping customers up to speed. Also it has been pretty obvious that Splat and others really have been working their asses off in order to deliver. I think those guys at PMGear kept their goodwill because of that.
The same can not, unfortunately, be said about DB. I would love to say that "I understand, I stick with you guys, and too bad you have had these problems". But I simply haven't received info that can make me say that. I have no reason to believe that you have done everything in your power to keep your customers happy. I don't feel that I have been kept properly informed about what is going on.
I kind of think I understand what is going on here. I guess there has been general production problems at Goode's new facilities. As the factory is owned by Goode, he prioritises his own customers. So DB customers will be served after all Goode customers have received their products. It seems as if you guys at DB should follow up your agreement with Goode much stricter.
The last thing you can do to retain some of your customers goodwill is, in my opinion, to come completely clean on what has been going on. Also, you should be 100% open about what the plan is going forward and let the customers know everything about where you are in that process. And probably you should have a good long talk with mr Goode.
I hope I will be able to say that I am 100% behind you again. Best wishes
Appreciate this is an extremely frustrating situation - for us all. We're only too aware that the good-will we've worked hard to build is evaporating.
However, (and not looking to make excuses) from a DB standpoint there's very little we can do. As is well documented our skis are produced at the GOODE factory, meaning that we're at the mercy of their production scheduling. This year they moved part of their operation from Michigan out to China, and this seems to have been the cause of most of the problems.
In a bid to try and find out what the score is, I phoned Stephan yesterday morning. Basically the arrangement with the factory is that they should produce a 50/50 split of GOODE/ db’s. However, in spite of what many people perceive, the makeup of the 2 skis are actually vastly different. Yes they’re both carbon, however db’s have different cores (5 channel torsion box vs 4), different layer make-ups (Kevlar wrap, more elastomer etc), completely different edge/base materials, different top sheet material, different flex profiles and different shapes – the skis are chalk and cheese! Anyway, for some reason China seem to be shipping GOODE skis rather than DB’s at the moment – hence that last shipment of 40 GOODEs that I referred to in previous posts.
What from our point of view is difficult, is that there seems to be no visibility on what they’re currently producing out in the Far East – we literally don’t know until they ship. Hence we’re unable to give any expected delivery dates to customers, as we’re left in the dark. There was a ‘revised’ production schedule floating around over Christmas, but working from that all skis would now have been delivered - understandably now they’re shying away from any further forecasting.
As a result of all this we’ve now stopped taking orders for this year. The hope is that with the new machinery GOODE has purchased, production will continue/ramp up over the summer and for next year we will have built up a stockpile of skis. For those waiting currently however that’s little consolation, all we can do is apologize. Once again if you would like to claim a refund then contact roman@dbskis.com and we shall honour it in full. Needless to say we also apologize for having debited your accounts in the first place – if we had any notion that things would turn out this way we would never have done taken any payment.
In answer to a couple of other questions that I’ve seen floating around. Squawman - I can assure you that there are absolutely no quality issues what so ever now with our skis. Durability is our first priority and we would NEVER ship a product that we knew to be in any way flawed. This is an absolute non-issue now. Doofdoof – threatening to cancel your order will have no impact on your place in the waiting list, it’s all set in stone.
So once again on behalf of dbskis I’d like to sincerely apologize to everyone still waiting for their skis. The only consolation I can offer, is that according to Stephan the skis that we’re producing now have again raised the performance bar on from last years models – so if you do hang on then it’ll be worth the (long) wait.
All the best, and as ever any questions feel free to mail me,
Regards,
Mike
Mike@dbskis.com
Your reply is most appreciated!
I think the attitude you are showing and the information you are giving is what I would hope to get directly "from the horse's mouth".
Also, I think it is very strange that DB have set up a production facility where you have no saying in the production schedule. Doesn't the head of the factory speak english. If you tell him to produce DB skis, does he actually produce Goode skis?? Very strange indeed. Have DB/Goode considered travelling to the facilities in China to straighten things out?
The Ogden info above is also a bit puzzling.
A last question; at this point I and probably many other customers are wondering if you are making improvements to next years models. Currently it seems as if the skis will get very limited use this year, and it might make sense to actually wait for next years' model, if it is going to be an improvement over this years. So are there any changes planned to next years model (of the Tabla Rasa in particular)?
I feel sorry for you, running into all those problems. Lets hope you get them sorted out now!
Kanutten, no problem for the reply – I’ve sent mails off this morning pushing for a ‘formal’ communication, so hopefully it’s on the way.
I share your sentiments on the factory front. Sending somebody out there would certainly seem like the logical thing to do, but that’s not my call to make.
With regard to changes for next years skis, I posed that exact question to Stephan yesterday. There are no changes anticipated for next years models – in part because we’ve had no opportunity to build/test prototypes. As stated in my last post, we shall carry on producing over the summer to the same specifications so as to stockpile skis for what will hopefully be a more successful 05/06 season. Customers expecting ‘this years ski’ will in no way be disadvantaged. Stephan was adamant that the skis we’re producing now represent a significant step forward from last years models, and as such we shall be focusing our efforts on production rather that any redesign.
Any further questions feel free to post here or email me direct.
Thanks for your patience and support,
Mikey
Mike@dbskis.com
DB skis are being made in CHINA??? that's the first I heard of that
well, that explains everything
for someone who whines and moans and complains about maturity and juveniles and respect... you're quite the little bitch yourself, squawman.
Irony: People bitching about production in china on the internet.
if you can't figure out the irony in this, you're stupid... all your computer parts are from china JONG
Quote:
Originally Posted by focus
the Chinese are notorious for inconsistent product quality, especially for the first couple of runs of anything there
you can be the test dummy on the new skis, because I'm sure you don't care about product quality after paying $900 for them, right?
I hope DB makes it, because their design is interesting, but Chinese production is a big negative in my mind
Funny, every company i can think of with semi to fully automated lines have inconsistent products on their first runs until all the bugs are worked out no matter where in the world they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by SquawMan
Quote:
Originally Posted by likwid
it's a catch 22 situation, if they are too candid, too many orders will get cancelled and they will get stuck with lots of unsold inventory
this revelation about the skis actually being made in China is a bit scary because nowhere on their web site did it EVER say that......it says they are being made at Goode's factory in Michigan
seems to me like it's now competely out of their control and just the boat trip from China will take weeks
anyway, good luck, I've been around too many start-ups in the Bay area so I'm conditioned to having them over promise and under deliver
Shut the fuck up!Quote:
Originally Posted by SquawMan
Honestly, Could that have been the origional intent until they finally got the bottom line of cost of production in the US? Probably.Quote:
Originally Posted by SquawMan
Its a website afterall, people don't update them as much as people would like.
And I'm sure if the production of them went better nobody would have known they were made in China.
But as it is they got dealt a shitty hand and have to eat their cake, and like it.
Just to check the info received here, I sent the following mail to Goode;
"Hi,
I heard someone talk about production problems at your new factory. I wonder
how quickly I would receive skis if I were to order a pair now?
Rgds,"
And I got the following reply;
"Brent, We have no production problems at the new factory. We are still
manufacturing at the Michigan warehouse.
Sincerely;
GOODE SKI TECHNOLOGIES"
What is going on here? :rolleyes:
One of the reasons for the "production delay" was that they were moving the production facility from Michigan to Ogden Utah.
Now we hear that they have moved it to China.
WTF???
I wonder how many people would have bought the skis if they knew that they were being made in China.
I heard a rumour from friend in CH that Cyril feels that Goode F'd over DB pretty bad this year, and was considering suing them.
If anyone can sympathize with Cyril and Stephan, regardless of what's occurring, it would be me. PM Gear has had our own issues in getting the Bros made. It ain't easy starting a ski company. And when you end up relying on other people to manufacture your product, more reasons than you could imagine will surface to bite you in the ass. I have had to fight tooth and nail to keep production going, just seething in my inabilty to sleep regarding broken promises and failed schedules. Something tells me similar circumstances are rippin these two visionaries down to their bare essence, and that they are cringing at words like these. I know I have.
Reading between the lines, that's the feeling I got. I may be wrong, but if the skis had been produced to the original schedule, the factory move, China etc wouldn't even have been issues - the skis should have been out of the door before these things happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by BC_Mike
I mailed DB a while ago and heard back from Stephan who sounded at the end of his tether. I hope they can get themselves sorted out soon and that they can find a way of resolving the production issues. Personally, I'd steer well clear of litigation if they can though :fm:
If db and the bros were to combine forces you would really be kicking some butt...is that a possibility?Quote:
Originally Posted by splat
Stephan and I discussed this. Contractually, they are in deep with Goode and have to culminate their vision where they are. But shit happens and things change, mergers are not necessarily bad, and, by god, it just might snow tomorrow. I need to ski more.
I think your customers will allow you another day on snow for all the info you've shared. Get some quick.Quote:
Originally Posted by splat
Me too...and I smell a blizzard comin.Quote:
Originally Posted by splat
Anybody know how many pairs of DB's have been paid for, and not yet delivered?
Ok so I started to enquire Goode about these production issues;
This answer wasn't really answering my question so I replied;Quote:
Originally Posted by KANUTTEN
"Hi again
Thanks for your reply. I heard that you had set up production facilities in China with a joint production with DB skis. Basically I heard that DB had substantial production problems, and I wondered if the same was true for you? Am I completely mislead here?
Do you produce out of two different facilities, or only Michigan? And also would delivery of Goode skis be almost immediate?"
And got the following answer;
"The production delays are the same for Goode just as they are for DB, it would not be any faster getting a Goode ski rather then a DB."
So Goode is still producing skis out of Michigan, and they are getting all the production from China. Still it will take the same time to get skis from Goode as it will to get skis from DB, according to this guy at Goode. That just doesn't add up.
Now it does sound as if Goode is getting worried about being sued by DB for stealing their customers. :rolleyes:
Stephan here from db.
I'll try to address the questions and concerns that have been brought up thus far in thus thread. If I miss anything, let me know, and I will try to come on and post again in the near future.
Well, as you know this year hasn't exactly gone as planned, and has generated some pretty deep frustration through the whole db community- from those who ordered skis, to those who physically build, design, and sell them as a way to make a living.
Probably as much as anyone, I live and breathe this year's disappointment every waking moment of the day and into the night (saying this season is as much of a literal 'nightmare' as it is a figurative one), but underneath the grit, stress, hair loss, and disappointment with the present is an optimism for the future, because I really believe in the skis we are building and know that despite their current lack of numbers, that they are something truly unique, special, and that it's worth fighting for the day when they do get built in quantities that will allow us to fulfill an order within a couple days of it being placed.
-In the fall, we thought there would have been skis, so we took orders with a full payment as a deposit, anticipating that skis would be delivered within a reasonable amount of time. That hasn't happened (see below for answers), and it has really hurt everyone in obvious ways. I now wish we could have just taken a reservation without cash as we are currently doing. It goes without saying that when someone is holding your money in his or her bank and not yours, you are more stressed about the delivery of the thing you ordered. So, in lieu of the current delays, I am advising anyone who has a ski on order, but feels anxiety about its delivery, or whether we are in business or not, to opt for a full refund of their purchase. While I totally understand and encourage those who want or need a refund to get one, we decided not to issue a blanket refund for the season because 1) skis are in fact trickling in and are being delivered, albeit slowly, and 2) there are folks who have orders in who have expressed interest in sticking it out for the long haul.
What happened, where were the problems? China? Michigan? Ogden?
- There were issues in the fall with lay-up and mold discrepancies. This last summer we cut all new molds- essentially completely new and revamped skis from the ones we build last year. That meant retooling everything, 9 molds, and all the accompanying craziness. Within each of those tools, is a lay-up for 2 different flexes, and we introduced a completely new molding cycle to our skis, which is totally unique and idiosyncratic to building carbon/Kevlar skis. I am sure Splat can attest to the immense complications and time involved in building one size/one shape/and 2 flexes on the bros. Anyway, factor that by 9 and add some really difficult materials into the stew and it turns into a potential Pandora’s box. No excuses though. The whole process was late, and the planning wasn't there for problems, many of which popped up in the early phases. Those bugs set us back around 4 months and are the reason why we are where we are. There's really not much more to it, besides the litany of engineering details--- no juicy financial issues, business deals or lawsuits to speak of, just problems in getting a new process dialed in, and unfortunately the repercussions of those early setbacks toasted the season in terms of output.
-Last year all skis were built in Michigan. Michigan is a relatively small facility and could not handle the quantities of skis we wanted to build there. A portion of skis and all molds are currently still being built there for the time being.
-Dave Goode, who is a partner and investor in db skis, wanted to move the operation to the mountains, which is great for db R&D. He chose Ogden UT. The Michigan facility is in the process of moving to Ogden. The move won't be fully complete until May or June of this year. Michigan will shut down completely thereafter. I will be hanging out in Ogden quite a bit next year. Ogden will employ approximately the same amount of people as Michigan did. Dave has been making ski poles in China for a number of years. He has decided to build the core of all skis, both GOODE and db in China, while doing all finishing work and tooling stateside. While currently the GOODE production and commitment to db is spread between Michigan, Ogden, and China, by this summer it will be split between China and Ogden, UT. On the China front, there have been some issues in terms of lack of electrical power running all presses, but these are minor in relation to the production problems mentioned above. In regard to all decisions pertaining to geography and production, db is at the whim of the GOODE organization.
-There are certain realities that come into play in those decisions regarding materials and build processes. When I talk to engineers and ski designers at other companies, they are often shocked and laugh at the materials we are building with from a financial standpoint. The whole ski consists of the highest grade aerospace composites made which cost a ridiculous amount in relation to any other ski built; the time investment in production is equally crazy. The margins are low no matter where you build them, and it's literally an impossible business in some places. It's a labor of love and a commitment to performance, and that's why we are hanging on, and trying to fulfill the orders that remain on the table for this year, and looking optimistically toward the spring when there are skis ready to ship out, and we can make this thing run the way it was designed to.
-It would be something to start over with another facility and not be beholden to a production partner (Of course, we are always open to listening to ideas and looking at other options) However, the belief I have in the sheer performance and design of the skis we are building, and the culture and community around them -e.g. thread like this one- continues to be a strong motivator to hold on. Every time I feel them under my feet, I know that we are up to a good thing, and that these skis mean something really special in our little corner of the ski world, and that we are going to keep working hard and dreaming to make their appearance in numbers a reality.
-The production guys are reticent to give any date projections on skis currently on order, having been wrong so many times this year so far, so we find out what comes in when it comes, unfortunately.
-Misc things: next years skis will be exactly the same as this years, not so much because we don't have time to design again, but because the ones that are starting to come out are amazing boards and we are really happy with them for now. This spring and summer, we hope to play with some experimental shapes that won't replace anything current but may broaden the existing quiver. We are currently working to increase production capacity by 6x for this spring/summer to climb out of the hole.
I hope this post helped to clarify and explain some of the issues and production history of this ill-fated 04/05-production season.
I can't really express how sorry I am to everyone who put an order and in and is still waiting. It pains me every time I think about it, which is often and almost always. I wish we could do something more right away.
If you are on the refund route and need boards right away, I have heard a lot of good things about the sticks made by the good BROS in this neck of the woods.
For those looking to get on the reservation list for when we get our act together, you can email administration@dbskis.com with the size/shape/flex you are looking for.
Otherwise, I am off to bed to dream of skis flying out of the presses and into the shrink wrap.--- I need to ski more too, and hopefully will soon.
Thinking db would be in a totally different place at this point this year, four of us planned a march/April road trip from Colorado to AK, using 4-stroke sleds to access terrain and tours along the way (a trip we dreamed about and planned for years).
In any case, Philip and Roman will be the direct email contacts for NA questions and logistics over the next couple of months, and I will be in contact with them and GOODE virtually daily by phone, so if you have more questions, send them on over, and we will do our best to answer.
Again- apologetically,
Stephan
Stephan,
Thanks for the informative reply and for taking the time to come on down and explain everything. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm still excited about the product (as i am excited about the Bros) for many reasons, not the least of which is the fact that independent companies are on the verge of making real waves in the ski industry. I hope you get your issues worked out and someday my tablas show up (and then i can make good on everything I've been saying about the product to other potential customers). Your response (and Philip's direct contact) are why I'm still here waiting, as frustrating as it is. If we don't support you all now, there's no other way to get off the ground. Like it or not, this community has such an interesting niche of the ski industry, and we're most likely always going to be the first to jump on a project like PMGear or dbskis. Sorry to hear about your road trip - i imagine we all had big plans for our new boards coming in. I know i sure did! Best of luck with the rest of the process.. i still wait like a kid on christmas every time the UPS guy shows up at my office.
-Justin
nice post Stephan, but if you want to get people stoked for next year, you really ought to think about skipping the vacation and continuing to hold demo's this spring so people who are waiting for skis can at least get SOME level of satisfaction to keep them wanting to go the distance and newbies like me who want to buy a pair can test them out
also, it would be nice for buyers to meet you
the Volkl Mantra is a very nice ski that I'm considering for '06 and I would love to test a Surreal against it before making a decision
on one hand I can see why you guys cancelled demo's (ie. you can't fill orders anyway, so why taunt people) but on the other, if you give demo ski's to your rep's and let them organize demo's at least you'll build up demand for next year and buzz
just my 2 cents
Bravo, Stephan.
For you to discuss the situation (as I have had to) is good to see and relieving for all. I could almost hear myself in what you said, but also know your task as far more daunting, given the number of models and flexes you are working on. And my praise goes to everyone here and elsewhere who has waited, patiently and otherwise, for both db and PM Gear skis. Both companies are the antithesis of megacorp ski companies, started by regular guys you all ski with.
This is the stuff American dreams are made of. And although foreign manufacturing might not sit well with some, I can attest to the high cost of building skis in the US and attempting to be competitive. It's almost impossible. I know that db is busting ass just like we are and am certain they have experienced the guilt-like feelings we have felt regarding timely deliveries. But I'm sure that when those skis arrive, the raves will erupt, all will be well, and the core of the brotherhood will have once again contributed to the progression of the sport.
Here's to the little guys.......................... :yourock:
as a bit more info on demos and the trip:
-there is only one set of demo skis currently available. As of 1 week from now, It will be tied up for the next 2 months for magazine tests/buyer's guides. There are no demo skis beyond those at the moment, so we are holding things off on demos until late spring and summer, where we plan to do a lot demoing in conjunction with having skis in stock. I personally don't have any current skis myself besides having skied and tested everything that is slated for the magazine group. The 2 skis that I am taking on the trip are protos from this summer. If there were more demos available at the moment, we would certainly be running them.
hey Splat, I see snow in our forecast for Tahoe :fm:
http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/...te&query=96160
I have yet to see the Bro's in Squaw, but I'm looking for them
Wow Stephan, as Splat said, we at PMG can completely sympathize with the trials and tribulations you've had to endure this year. Best of luck to you and your partners. Keep the passion and hard work running high (sounds like that shouldn't be a problem for you) and keep believing. All the best.
-Ron
Your replys are much appreciated. I think you are dealing with a group of customers who have it in them to forgive and forget more than the average skishopper. We (at least some of us) understand that it takes a lot to create skis like you do. And I am also among those who have great faith in the product. So I am in there for the long haul (hopefully not so long haul that is ;) ). I am not cancelling my order now, that is!
That being said, there is particularly one issue in the explanations above I find a bit bewildering. Mikey talked about 40 something skis sent from China that should be DB's, but actually were Goodes. Is this correct? If it is correct, it seems as if you have some control problems with the guys in China. It is a bit worrying for me that there are someone over in China producing whatever he/she feels like that day and sending it to you afterwards. I wonder if you are doing something to get the guys over in China to get their act together?
Also it would be great to get a "progress report" of some kind. Something like; "This season we have had XX skis on order (x R's, y Surreals and z TR's). To date we have produced YY skis (v R's t Surreals and u TR's). Your skis are number Y in line to be produced." Would you be willing to share that kind of info?
Best wishes
Bernt Brun (alias KANUTTEN)
I would second that. I've been told what number TR order I am, but it means little without knowing what else has been/has to be produced.