Ahh so where do you think we are.

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Originally Posted by mrw

That 40 million figure includes a large number of young adults who choose to go without healthcare because they don't want to pay for it.
Prior to wishing national healthcare on this country, I suggest you take a hard look at the socialized medical schemes throughout the world. Most are underfunded and provide substandard care. We have the best health care in the world here and like it or not, thats because it's profit based.

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I suggest you look at the many figures which absolutely disprove your statement that we have the best health care in the world here (unless you only meant for the rich, in which case you're probably right). Take our infant mortality rate, which is almost dead last among industrialized countries, and ranks behind many of the little countries you probably consider the U.S. to be superior to.
National healthcare would be the best possible thing for us, no question about it. But the insurance companies (W's friends) would never want you to know that, and it looks like they're doing a pretty good job of keeping the wool pulled over your eyes.
Besides, if you're rich, even with socialized medicine you'd still be able to pay for doctors and care beyond what the health plan provides.

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Originally Posted by mrw

I believe the reason drug costs are out of control is (1) Lawyers and (2) prescription plans...

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Uhhh, yeah. Big pharma isn't out to make a huge profit, it wants only to provide the American public with inexpensive drug-based therapeutics. They also don't want to sell us drugs that we don't need.

I'm so proud to be living in a country where huge corporations are looking out for the little guy...makes me feel all warm inside.

My sister doesn't have health care. I consider this a choice. She's living her life how she wants to. She could have it if she learned valuable skills and applied herself, but she chooses not to. She's lucky because she knows my parents or I would take care of her if she needed it. Explain it to me why you should have to pay for my sister to get health care because she chooses to spend more time having fun than working or going to school than you or I do. Imagine if we started a thread: "I've got $10000 worth of health care to give away". Then people wrote in stories about who deserved it and I wrote in that my sister is having a ball, and she doesn't really want to go to school or do hard work that could earn her money and health care. That would be a winner I'm sure.

She was just in the hospital (a non-profit one). Chances are my parents pay 3/4 of the bill. One item was acetaminophen (that's tylenol btw): $86

I'll break that down for you:

Capital costs (buildings, equipment, etc): $18
Staff (doctors, nurses, janitors, administrators): $15
Liability for when John Edwards sues: $53

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

Besides, if you're rich, even with socialized medicine you'd still be able to pay for doctors and care beyond what the health plan provides.

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Except that there wouldn't be any doctors in the specialty area you needed. Why the fuck would anyone be anything but a family practitioner. You are so alligned w/ anything communist/socialist that your spewing is almost funny. Ask those in Canada how the socialized system has affected the special areas of medicine. I know for a fact that some canadians are sent to the states for testing in areas that canadian doctor's don't practice. I guess if you only plan on getting "normally" sick then its a good idea.

Over the past 4 years I graduated from school, got a good job, received 4 NASD licenses, and because interest rates were so low, I was able to purchase a house and lock in a low 30 year fixed rate at 5.5%. About 10 years ago my parents said that 9% is a good rate to lock in on.

I am of the belief that if you work hard you make what you deserve. just my $0.02

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

Besides, if you're rich, even with socialized medicine you'd still be able to pay for doctors and care beyond what the health plan provides.

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(1)I refer you to Hillary Care where a doctor would be unable to take any money other than what her plan allows.

(2) with my current plan, I pay my premium and a co-pay that I have chosen and my carrier steps in after that. With gov't run health care, I would be bent over once by them and then again by a private carrier (assuming that it were allowed) to insure competent care.

(3) I am unwilling to turn over Doctor selection, Treatment and my possible need for a 2nd or even a 3rd opinion to the nanny state.

(4) Government on all levels has proven time and time again that it can't perform even the smallest of functions with out huge spending,cost over runs and pandering to minority groups with a big mouth.

thanks but no thanks, let's put a safety net in place for the bottom rung of society so that they are provided for but sucking me and my family into that morass is completely unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by 1080Rider

Except that there wouldn't be any doctors in the specialty area you needed.

Ask those in Canada how the socialized system has affected the special areas of medicine.

I know for a fact that some canadians are sent to the states for testing in areas that canadian doctor's don't practice.

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I know for a fact that many people in the United States can't find specialty doctors anywhere near where they live. More, my personal observations lead me to conclude that a staggering number of our specialists are either not very good or idiots. A Canadian physician friend (a specialist) complains of the long hours and low pay compared to what doctors in the US earn, although she admits that she isn't burdened by ridiculous insurance costs.

Our medical system really isn't so impressive, there's a lot of work to be done. Maybe in four years we can a start on fixing things.

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Originally Posted by Mountain Freak

I am of the belief that if you work hard you make what you deserve. just my $0.02

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I feel the same way, but I also realize that the playing field isn't level.

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Ask those in Canada how the socialized system has affected the special areas of medicine.

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While I'm not claiming our health care is without problems, this is wrong. According to the WHO, the US is failing in some areas of specialized med and doing well in others - as is Canada - as are the other countries involved.
Canada is #1 for womens health care, breast cancer research, and near the top in cancer research - but we suck at dealing with heart attacks. The US is at the top for heart attack survival, but the bottom in other areas.

One thing I find somewhat amusing is this whole "living poor, voting rich" phenomenom. The republicans couldn't win without a large body of lower-income people voting for them. These are folks who would benefit directly from Democratic policies, but they vote against their own self-interest. Our household income is quite high. It's an over-simplification, but essentially these people who have very little money are taking what they do have and they're throwing it at me!

I mean, thanks and all, but I'd be perfectly happy if they'd stop.

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The US is at the top for heart attack survival, but the bottom in other areas.

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That's a relief because we have more heart attacks here than anywhere else in the world! (I don't know that for a fact, but it just seems that way).

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Originally Posted by shmerham

My sister doesn't have health care. I consider this a choice. She's living her life how she wants to. She could have it if she learned valuable skills and applied herself, but she chooses not to. She's lucky because she knows my parents or I would take care of her if she needed it.

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It was your sister's choice to not have insurance, just as it is yours & your parents' choice to take care of her if she needs it. You and they can choose not to, and that will present her with a different set of circumstances.

Your sister reminds me of a lot of the priveliged white girls I grew up with -- who know they can go back to the credit union of mom & dad if they get in trouble.

Circumstances dictate the choices. "Where you sit is where you stand," indeed.

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She was just in the hospital (a non-profit one). Chances are my parents pay 3/4 of the bill. One item was acetaminophen (that's tylenol btw): $86

I'll break that down for you:

Capital costs (buildings, equipment, etc): $18
Staff (doctors, nurses, janitors, administrators): $15
Liability for when John Edwards sues: $53

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It's funny you bring up liability.

Let's look at it from another point of view: If health care was so awesome in this country, would we really need liability? There are a lot more quacks out there than you think.

I agree that plenty of good Docs are forking out mucho dinero for liability - it's obvious. The problem is, they are bearing the cost (via liability insurance) of shitty Docs who deserve to be sued. Do you know how many substandard Docs came to the U.S. from 2nd and 3rd world countries because the pay is so good? Thats on top of the numerous quacks our educational system pushes through medical schools.

Liability doesn't distinguish between the good doctors that hold themselves accountable, and the shitty doctors that use it as an excuse not be as accountable as they should be.

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Originally Posted by iceman

One thing I find somewhat amusing is this whole "living poor, voting rich" phenomenom. The republicans couldn't win without a large body of lower-income people voting for them.

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Another amazing victory for the Bush PR team.

They somehow fooled all these people into believing W's not just another incompetent rich kid, that he somehow represents them because he walks like he just got off a horse.

Use the word "ranch", exaggerate the drawl, talk like an idiot...

Shockingly effective.

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Originally Posted by 13

It was your sister's choice to not have insurance, just as it is yours & your parents' choice to take care of her if she needs it. You and they can choose not to, and that will present her with a different set of circumstances.

Your sister reminds me of a lot of the priveliged white girls I grew up with -- who know they can go back to the credit union of mom & dad if they get in trouble.

Circumstances dictate the choices. "Where you sit is where you stand," indeed.



It's funny you bring up liability.

Let's look at it from another point of view: If health care was so awesome in this country, would we really need liability? There are a lot more quacks out there than you think.

I agree that plenty of good Docs are forking out mucho dinero for liability - it's obvious. The problem is, they are bearing the cost (via liability insurance) of shitty Docs who deserve to be sued. Do you know how many substandard Docs came to the U.S. from 2nd and 3rd world countries because the pay is so good? Thats on top of the numerous quacks our educational system pushes through medical schools.

Liability doesn't distinguish between the good doctors that hold themselves accountable, and the shitty doctors that use it as an excuse not be as accountable as they should be.

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13, the victory drink of choice was Woodford, neat.

no straw :D

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Originally Posted by 1080Rider

Except that there wouldn't be any doctors in the specialty area you needed. Why the fuck would anyone be anything but a family practitioner. You are so alligned w/ anything communist/socialist that your spewing is almost funny. Ask those in Canada how the socialized system has affected the special areas of medicine. I know for a fact that some canadians are sent to the states for testing in areas that canadian doctor's don't practice. I guess if you only plan on getting "normally" sick then its a good idea.

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Your spewing is just idiotic, nothing more. If you think people who lack insurance have access to GPs or specialists(!), you need to put down the crack pipe and think for awhile. Canada's health care still beats the shit out of ours, as do all the socialized plans in Europe. Don't be so ideologically driven that you can't see what's true and what's not. Socialized medicine works, ours does not. End of story.