Real Estate Contracts

IME in California lawyers aren't usually involved. The selling broker provides a standard contract in simple large print English with the terms written in. There may be contingencies like the buyer having to sell a house first that don't need a lawyer to negotiate (but good luck with that in most CA markets). Title company does the rest. The one time I used a lawyer was to draw up a mortgage when we carried the mortgage on our kid's house after Wells dropped the ball. Obviously the bigger the price the more likely someone will want a lawyer involved but we've never been in that situation.

since this is on the first page. Just sold a house. 15 minutes on Facebook Marketplace, Title company handled all paperwork. Just spent more time trying to get my camera and microphone working to sign paperwork with online notary than on the entire process.

Obviously you priced it way way too low.

Contracts, schmontracts!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZxASXs9th4

Update: Woman charged in case of deed switched without homeowner's knowledge

Still kinda early on, and typically a sluggish time of year, but curious if anyone has been involved in a sale (as buyer or seller) since the new realtor engagement rules went into effect?

What do you want to know?

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Originally Posted by fomofo

Still kinda early on, and typically a sluggish time of year, but curious if anyone has been involved in a sale (as buyer or seller) since the new realtor engagement rules went into effect?

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Thus far in our market: Sellers are still offering to pay the buyer's agent and still in the same % range pretty much as previously. Have yet to come across a listing that isn't. Have heard of a couple that weren't offering compensation through my office, but the buyey/buyers agent just writes into their offer that they want their agent to be paid at X% of purchase price. Haven't heard of any of them not getting accepted written that way.

It has certainly cooled off here and many properties are sitting and not flying off the shelf. Properties priced right are still going under contract in a few days. I'd imagine things could be different if these rules went into effect summer 2021. Desperate buyers with out of state money would probably be more apt to pay their agents directly......especially when they were all cash or locked into a 2.25% mortgage rate.

How many sellers know of the new law, and how many selling agents are informing them of the change? If you live in a decent market with a well-priced house, I don't know why a seller would be willing to pay the buyer's commission now that it's clear they don't have to.

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Originally Posted by smmokan

How many sellers know of the new law, and how many selling agents are informing them of the change? If you live in a decent market with a well-priced house, I don't know why a seller would be willing to pay the buyer's commission now that it's clear they don't have to.

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The Montana Listing Agreement was updated in May 2024 to spell it out more clearly to the seller that they DO NOT have any obligation to pay a buyer's agent. They never HAD to, but to make things more clear the forms were updated in advance of the national changes and I would assume this is the case in many/most states now. Many clients have been asking about the changes for 6+ months before they actually went into effect.

It's just so easy to buy a house without a realtor. I spent more time signing buyer broker agreements the one time I used a realtor than I did doing the whole process at the title company.

Plus the middle man process, if you want to do anything other than a very standard transaction the realtor stands directly in your way and often needs to be educated in the various terms.

But I see why people use them, people just hate fussing around with stuff, regardless of how much money it saves them, they would rather pay a realtor than spend 5 hours on making or saving $10,000. Plus big real estate has made the entire process daunting so people won't even consider doing it themselves unless they are already pretty savvy.

what if you ^^do it rong ?

Depending on the jurisdiction- BC for example, the Seller is paying the Realtor. You may be able to save some cash by not hiring your own, but it would come off the price.
Although I agree with it being hard to justify that cost in a lot of transactions.

For MOST deals in syrup land the buyer is borrowing $$$$$$$ from one of 5 large class A banks and then there is the variuos fee's & disbursements

so I've always wondered how those banks feel about the buyer not using a realtor ?

or at least a smart firefighter with a lawyering probelm,

it seem's somewhere in the process the buyer MUST use a lawyer at least for fees or disbursemnts or maybe that is only in BC

I've heard of a few people paying an RE person 1K to handle the FSBO deal

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Originally Posted by Mazderati

What do you want to know?

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Originally Posted by smmokan

How many sellers know of the new law, and how many selling agents are informing them of the change? If you live in a decent market with a well-priced house, I don't know why a seller would be willing to pay the buyer's commission now that it's clear they don't have to.

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That's it. Say you have a realtor you've worked with in the past, and you're thinking of maybe selling your current house, and leaning towards working with that realtor again. If the old commission standard was 5%, are people now asking the seller contract to specify half that? On a million dollar house, that's $25k. And in actuality is that coming back around one way or another to be figured into the effective sale price even if the commission is cut up front?

All said with the realization that money, like age, is relative. (Is 40 old? Or young? Discuss.) A million dollar house could still be way expensive for many areas, and a distant pipe dream for others. $25k pocket change, or actually a nice chunk that could fuel a year of frugal living.

My experience with real estate people is that, yes, they do gather and put in front of you the mountain of paperwork needed to complete the transaction, but quickly become annoyed when you want to read, or, gasp, actually ask "what exactly am I signing here"?

I ask what if you do it rong cuz i know shit about writng contracts and so the last house I sold thru a pretty good agent she took one last look at the contract, either put a word/ words in or took words out and said "we wouldn't want to have you owning 2 houses at the same time

last house i bought I had met Hutz on an avy course so having a beer buddy said something along the lines that those drugstore purchase contracts have holes in them you could drive a truck thru so bring him the deal and he will thro in writing the purchase contract and the deal went just like he planned it ... awesume

the deal was already made by the time I called Hutz so he didn't have to chase an ambulance I just wanted a binding contract in legalese, it reminded me of any house deal I had ever bought but without the RE agent and it was a good thing cuz half way thru the vendor starts to be a wanker wanting to save on his mortgage by moving up the possesion date but i could just say no read your contract we got a signed deal so it goes as specifyed

It should be a fee based business with a menu of options.


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Originally Posted by XXX-er

what if you ^^do it rong ?

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There is a lot of questions then. A lawyer is a better person to deal with anything like that than a realtor.

Title companies have purchase agreements in stock you can use. If you take the time to read them they really aren't that complicated, but again it depends on your goals, most purchases are pretty simple, but once it starts to get complicated I wouldn't trust a realtor anyways.

Your question of owning two houses at the same time makes it sound like your person made the purchase of the one home contingent on the sale of the other home, you can write that in however you'd like.

That said with -most- contracts, if someone changes their mind you aren't going to be able to hold them to it in any practical sense, you'd have to file suit for specific performance, and in my opinion it just isn't worth it, if the seller turns hostile let them walk.

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Originally Posted by Yukonrider

There is a lot of questions then. A lawyer is a better person to deal with anything like that than a realtor.

Title companies have purchase agreements in stock you can use. If you take the time to read them they really aren't that complicated, but again it depends on your goals, most purchases are pretty simple, but once it starts to get complicated I wouldn't trust a realtor anyways.

Your question of owning two houses at the same time makes it sound like your person made the purchase of the one home contingent on the sale of the other home, you can write that in however you'd like.

That said with -most- contracts, if someone changes their mind you aren't going to be able to hold them to it in any practical sense, you'd have to file suit for specific performance, and in my opinion it just isn't worth it, if the seller turns hostile let them walk.

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So what is most contracts ?

So then why bother with any contract?

So where is the oh fuck moment when years down the road in say the vancover or toronto market that went big OR collapsed when the buyer or seller decides its worth coming after you which I read about often in national news ?

and that was the point was it wasn't written in the contract so I could have ended up owning a house I didnt want so realtor did write it in the contract

but its easy to be cavalier when you got zero skin in the game

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

So what is most contracts ?

So then why bother with any contract?

So where is the oh fuck moment when years down the road in say the vancover or toronto market that went big OR collapsed when the buyer or seller decides its worth coming after you which I read about often in national news ?

and that was the point was it wasn't written in the contract so I could have ended up owning a house I didnt want so realtor did write it in the contract

but its easy to be cavalier when you got zero skin in the game

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Zero skin in the game?

Apologies, Canada is certainly different, and I may have misinterpreted your question if there was one.

The lawyer specifically said generic purchase contracts will have holes in them you can drive a truck thru so he will help me , I've already done the part an agent would have done he will do all the rest

yeah Canada is different and so are each of the 50 states, if one messed up an RE purchase its is a pretty big purchase to fuck up on but it sounds like one just walks away like Don Trump in America

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

For MOST deals in syrup land the buyer is borrowing $$$$$$$ from one of 5 large class A banks and then there is the variuos fee's & disbursements

so I've always wondered how those banks feel about the buyer not using a realtor ?

or at least a smart firefighter with a lawyering probelm,

it seem's somewhere in the process the buyer MUST use a lawyer at least for fees or disbursemnts or maybe that is only in BC

I've heard of a few people paying an RE person 1K to handle the FSBO deal

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Technically you can do a conveyance in BC without a lawyer or notary, I just don’t know how. I actually had someone ask me about this. They couldn’t understand why I wouldn’t learn how to do it outside of the LTSA platform (online Land Title Office registration platform).

Banks are fine lending on a non-Realtor contract. But will require a lawyer or notary to be involved in the conveyancing.

Technicaly I also asked you but I don't begrudge those Disbursments on RE transactions

Especialy this year becuz i know you had to buy a new race setup for mini LHutz Esq

Around here (CA) a decent realtor should be able to structure an offer or counteroffer for a single house deal with all the contingencies their client needs and no gaping loopholes. Once a deal is made the title company handles the paperwork. I used a lawyer to review a contract once--waste of time and money. As a practical matter there are enough contingencies to let someone back out of a purchase contract--it's a rare inspection that doesn't turn up something. Even if there is no good excuse to back out few sellers are going to do more than keep the deposit. Lawyers are for after things go to shit--dead hookers in the walls, that sort of thing.

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Originally Posted by old goat

Around here (CA) a decent realtor should be able to structure an offer or counteroffer for a single house deal with all the contingencies their client needs and no gaping loopholes. Once a deal is made the title company handles the paperwork. I used a lawyer to review a contract once--waste of time and money. As a practical matter there are enough contingencies to let someone back out of a purchase contract--it's a rare inspection that doesn't turn up something. Even if there is no good excuse to back out few sellers are going to do more than keep the deposit. Lawyers are for after things go to shit--dead hookers in the walls, that sort of thing.

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" Decent " & " Should be able to " are the operative word(s), where I last lived I skied/ paddled with the lawyer who was the guy you hired to sue people and he said " there are 300 RE agents in this town and i would trust a handful of them "

probably writing your pwn contract or even using a shitty RE agent 90% of the time you are gona be OK, unless there is a really complicated situ i wouldn't bother with a Lawyer on a deal where i was using RE agents,

On a FSBO I definatley would ( did ) use a lawyer cuz I don't write contracts so I havent a clue, I also wouldn't take out my own appendicts or do my own root canal

I know how you feel about the wasting time & money on a lawyer cuz I bought snow tires, I didnt crash what waste of time and money

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

" Decent " & " Should be able to " are the operative word(s), where I last lived I skied/ paddled with the lawyer who was the guy you hired to sue people and he said " there are 300 RE agents in this town and i would trust a handful of them "

probably writing your pwn contract or even using a shitty RE agent 90% of the time you are gona be OK, unless there is a really complicated situ i wouldn't bother with a Lawyer on a deal where i was using RE agents,

On a FSBO I definatley would ( did ) use a lawyer cuz I don't write contracts so I havent a clue, I also wouldn't take out my own appendicts or do my own root canal

I know how you feel about the wasting time & money on a lawyer cuz I bought snow tires, I didnt crash what waste of time and money

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Agree on the FSBO.
And as people have said, location, location, location applies to the mechanics of buying a house, not just to the price.

yeah so up here almost everybody is using a lawyer for an RE deal probaly becuz almost everybody is borrowing the money off of one of the " big 5 "class A banks which hold 95 % of all bank assets in syrup land, as far as I can tell class A means totally Canadian. So the big 5 banks want to make sure they do actualy hold the paper on the asset they gave you money for so becuz almost every deal needs a lawyer they can make pretty good bank just signing RE deals so I think the smart lawyer wants to be diversefyed beyond just RE contracts but i knew Lawyers who did just RE

The banks also want a valid survey to make sure the pins are all in the correct physical place on earth and on that subject you need a BCLS TO locate your pins when a new lot gets laid out for the first time, the licensed guys are the best period but they cost more than some guy who just learned how to use a total station enough to do a little engineering, so as a recovering stick bitch I have worked for a number of those engineering and Licensed survey firms and IME/IMO you wana pay for the best ( BCLS ) to make sure you are really buying what you think you are buying

its all just due diligence eh

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Originally Posted by old goat

. Lawyers are for after things go to shit--dead hookers in the walls, that sort of thing.

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Doctors with this attitude are going to pay for my kids to go to Uni!

Keep it up!

I can charge very little for a contract review- and huge liability if I miss something. There is really very little limit on the fees in a good contract dispute, and almost no liability (for me anyway). I fully support this thinking.

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Originally Posted by old goat

. Lawyers are for after things go to shit--dead hookers in the walls, that sort of thing.

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Doctors with this attitude are going to pay for my kids to go to Uni!

Keep it up!

I can charge very little for a contract review- and huge liability if I miss something. There is really very little limit on the fees in a good contract dispute, and almost no liability (for me anyway). I fully support this thinking.

I had another buddy in the PeeG who did family law, I think the laws changed so he held seminars where he told everybody about divorce and he said you can play nice and take your kids to Disneyland or you can fight with your ex and I take my kids to Disneyland

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Originally Posted by fomofo

That's it. Say you have a realtor you've worked with in the past, and you're thinking of maybe selling your current house, and leaning towards working with that realtor again. If the old commission standard was 5%, are people now asking the seller contract to specify half that? On a million dollar house, that's $25k. And in actuality is that coming back around one way or another to be figured into the effective sale price even if the commission is cut up front?

All said with the realization that money, like age, is relative. (Is 40 old? Or young? Discuss.) A million dollar house could still be way expensive for many areas, and a distant pipe dream for others. $25k pocket change, or actually a nice chunk that could fuel a year of frugal living.

My experience with real estate people is that, yes, they do gather and put in front of you the mountain of paperwork needed to complete the transaction, but quickly become annoyed when you want to read, or, gasp, actually ask "what exactly am I signing here"?

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I encountered the gamut over the last few months as a buyer without a buyer's agent.

Some seller's agents would not show me properties they represented nor answer questions about them; they wanted me to have a buyer's agent and if I did not have a buyer's agent they would provide a referral so I could get one. It was quid pro quo old guard protectionism for when seller's agents were eventually on the other side of transactions. This was a non-trivial number of experiences.

Some seller's agents would show me properties but only after I signed a buyer's representation agreement with them. All were willing to limit the representation to a specific address for a given number of days or months (sometimes just one day). All of these defined the buyer's agent commission so they could claim dual agency and pick up both sides of the commission. This was the bulk of experiences.

Some seller's agents required nothing and were willing to show without strings attached. This was the smallest number of experiences.

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Originally Posted by Mazderati

I encountered the gamut over the last few months as a buyer without a buyer's agent.

Some seller's agents would not show me properties they represented nor answer questions about them; they wanted me to have a buyer's agent and if I did not have a buyer's agent they would provide a referral so I could get one. It was quid pro quo old guard protectionism for when seller's agents were eventually on the other side of transactions. This was a non-trivial number of experiences.

Some seller's agents would show me properties but only after I signed a buyer's representation agreement with them. All were willing to limit the representation to a specific address for a given number of days or months (sometimes just one day). All of these defined the buyer's agent commission so they could claim dual agency and pick up both sides of the commission. This was the bulk of experiences.

Some seller's agents required nothing and were willing to show without strings attached. This was the smallest number of experiences.

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JFC! Yet again, disappointing, but not reallty surprising. Do wonder though if that has the National Realtor Ass'n stamp of approval?

Ah well, the rubber has met the road. As FZ said "the meek shall inherit nothing". Gonna have to pry those juicy commissions out of their cold, dead hands.

The couple times I used a realtor to "draw up" a contract they copy pasted a well worn PA from their brokerage, the same one I got from the title company.

I'm sure there are plenty of stories of convoluted contracts being chased by lawyers, but overall buying and selling simple residential real estate isn't a complicated process in the US, and most of paperwork one will use is boilerplate stuff.

As an attorney I do 6-12 FSBO's a year for clients. I charge a 1.5% fee. 9.999/10 times, even though we have standard form real estate contracts in my state, I still come up on the bottom compared to if I charged hourly for my actual time. 10/10 times the client comes out way better than if they had had a REA. And this is on both sides.

My experiences with lawyers is that while they know the law, the ones I've dealt with know nothing about the real estate market, negotiating terms and contingencies, what fees are negotiable as to who pays them, who does a good inspection, etc. It's in how the blanks in those standard forms are filled out that matters. I'm sure there are savvy attorneys who can handle that stuff for high end properties but that's not the pond I swim in.

Its a pretty narrow subset of Realtors(tm) that are true experts in those areas also. I've had awesome attorneys help me though some title exceptions of a distressed property and I've had awesome agents help me navigate though some negotiation challenges also. Hopefully that's the point, we are moving to an ala carte model?

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Originally Posted by old goat

My experiences with lawyers is that while they know the law, the ones I've dealt with know nothing about the real estate market, negotiating terms and contingencies, what fees are negotiable as to who pays them, who does a good inspection, etc. It's in how the blanks in those standard forms are filled out that matters. I'm sure there are savvy attorneys who can handle that stuff for high end properties but that's not the pond I swim in.

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I swim in a very unique pond that includes barely existing old patented mining claims, quiet title actions that go back nearly 100 years to get right, waste dumps, multi multi million dollar properties with problems, and trailers. It keeps it very interesting. A lot of ancillary estate work too.

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Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark

As an attorney I do 6-12 FSBO's a year for clients. I charge a 1.5% fee. 9.999/10 times, even though we have standard form real estate contracts in my state, I still come up on the bottom compared to if I charged hourly for my actual time. 10/10 times the client comes out way better than if they had had a REA. And this is on both sides.

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Yeah get a contract ^^ I rest my case

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Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark

I swim in a very unique pond that includes barely existing old patented mining claims, quiet title actions that go back nearly 100 years to get right, waste dumps, multi multi million dollar properties with problems, and trailers. It keeps it very interesting. A lot of ancillary estate work too.

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

Yeah get a contract ^^ I rest my case

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If you're doing a non-standard real estate deal, yes absolutely get a lawyer. But if you're trying to purchase a single family home in boringville what value does a lawyer bring to the table that a title company doesn't provide?

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

Its a pretty narrow subset of Realtors(tm) that are true experts in those areas also. I've had awesome attorneys help me though some title exceptions of a distressed property and I've had awesome agents help me navigate though some negotiation challenges also. Hopefully that's the point, we are moving to an ala carte model?

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Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark

I swim in a very unique pond that includes barely existing old patented mining claims, quiet title actions that go back nearly 100 years to get right, waste dumps, multi multi million dollar properties with problems, and trailers. It keeps it very interesting. A lot of ancillary estate work too.

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Those are absolutely the kinds of things I would want a lawyer for, except that I wouldn't touch that stuff with a 10 foot pole. I'm having enough trouble with the next door neighbor who wants to change a 94 year old property line.

In the mountains around here, everything was neatly surveyed--by guys who did it all from a bar in Truckee. When there was a question of where the Wilderness Boundary on the backside of Olympic Valley was, for purposes of routing the gondola to Alpine Meadows, they found that the old survey defined things by landmarks that don't exist.

My experience was that most sellers are offering to pay that commission but they consider the money spent / out of their pocket. A $500k no realtor offer is as strong as a $512k offer with buyers commission.


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