We are screwed ( NSR )

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

All I mean to say is that one can live really well on 110k/year. Should there be no limit to excess?
Taxes pay for some good stuff: roads, education, parks. If you want a cut in taxes, expect a cut in services.
Personally, I don't mind paying more since I earn more.

Mixing in the remarks about gays is below you. It's a completely different issue. I apologize if my addressing the topic in this way incenses you to that extent.

I don't think the rich pay too much, particularly the very wealthy. We differ.

As far as your national identity, you're an American. One of priviledge as well. If you don't believe that the government should play a role in helping other Americans, the poor, the disadvantaged and the indigent, I guess we differ there as well.

Yup, the government requires control. At the base of my beliefs is that we'll have a more successful time controlling the government than the corporations or relying on the wealthy to look after the poor, our educational systems, roads or parks.

If you feel that the politician doesn't hear you, that's your responsibilty. Vote, phone and write letters. Our government gets out of control because we let it. Take responsibility. If required, riot and revolt. And exactly who are those campaign contributors? The poor?

The issue is that a lot of us have had a lot of advantages. Folks that didn't get those advantages sometimes don't get to choose what they do for a living. So I'm taking issue with that remark of yours. And I don't think the poor should have to pay the same amount the middle class or rich do.



I know you're not and I have a lot of respect for you and your ethics of work and creativity. I guess I just figure that I'll continue to work and try to make stuff independent of my tax burden.

I disagree with the notion of the welfare state. I think it engenders entitlement addictions and hate for the providers. I have different ideas about it.

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Buster, it's the same thinking, but with different issues plugged in. Below me, whatever. It's an analogy with words. Are you so sensitive to block out the point simply due to the analogy used. The latter of the two is one we share.

I'm an American. I contribute. That's why I said earlier I wish I had a say as what I contributed to. For you to imply I'm not helping the poor is like me implying your bombing babies in iraq. Why so polar? It's the same taxes we both pay going to different things. And at the age you were traveling the US selling drugs I was serving in the Army. So climb down from your civic pride pulpit.

I was advantaged, but I also worked my ass off. Others from my family struggle to get by. The difference in our situations is work.

I think you're a great dude, but enforcing people to do your will is wrong. No matter which side of the fence you're on.

I believe that I should be taxed at a greater rate because I can afford it.

I think the intent of higher taxes for the rich goes along these lines. It's not punitive in intent.

Clearly this is an emotional issue and we'll never get anywhere as long as it's emotional.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

I believe that I should be taxed at a greater rate because I can afford it.

I think the intent of higher taxes for the rich goes along these lines. It's not punitive in intent.

Clearly this is an emotional issue and we'll never get anywhere as long as it's emotional.

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Yeah, I'm done with this. None of you have made an argument to sway me in the slightest. In fact you've never really adresssed any issues other than some sort of hippy civic giving, praying in public nobility bullshit.

We agree to differ on this one. My last post in this thread. You're not seeing the whole picture of my posts anyway. More posts won't help.

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Originally Posted by meatdrink9

Buster, it's the same thinking, but with different issues plugged in. Below me, whatever. It's an analogy with words. Are you so sensitive to block out the point simply due to the analogy used. The latter of the two is one we share.

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I think they're entirely different. And I did address the main point. Or at least I try.

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I'm an American. I contribute. That's why I said earlier I wish I had a say as what I contributed to. For you to imply I'm not helping the poor is like me implying your bombing babies in iraq. Why so polar? It's the same taxes we both pay going to different things. And at the age you were traveling the US selling drugs I was serving in the Army. So climb down from your civic pride pulpit.

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I regret that you're interpreting things this way. I do not mean to imply that you're not helping. I mean to illuminate that you shold take pride in what you do and what you help.
We each paid for college in our own way.
I don't see myself at a pulpit, I see myself in a crowd, talking to another member of the crowd, telling them that they're in a crowd. A crowd more lonely than it should be.

My apologies for allowing you to even begin to consider that I'm postulating so.

You do have a say with your government. But a lot of Americans have shirked their responsibilty in that regard. Disdain the French, but they shut down their government a lot.

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I was advantaged, but I also worked my ass off. Others from my family struggle to get by. The difference in our situations is work.

I think you're a great dude, but enforcing people to do your will is wrong. No matter which side of the fence you're on.

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I'm not forcing anybody to do anything. All I'm saying is that I think it's reasonable for society's elite to bear more than their share of the burden in part because they enjoy more of its bounty.

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Originally Posted by meatdrink9

Yeah, I'm done with this. None of you have made an argument to sway me in the slightest. In fact you've never really adresssed any issues other than some sort of hippy civic giving, praying in public nobility bullshit.

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The greatest attribute of art or humanity is magnanimy. As I wrote, I only meant to point out that you can think of the good stuff your taxes can do.

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More posts won't help.

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I guess not.

The issue of whether we are taxed too much or too little is not an easily answerable question. Compared to other industrialized nations, our income tax burden is among the lowest. Of course, we don't get as many services as in other nations, namely subsidized health-care for everyone.

However, as board stated, the MAIN issue is that our government is spending FAR more money than it is taking in and at a rate that is not sustainable over the long term.

There are major differences between the deficits now and those in the Reagan era. The Reagan era was at the cusp of the end of the Cold War. After the Cold War was over, the U.S. was able to make huge cuts in defense spending, which was one of the main reasons that we were able to reduce the yearly deficit and return to a brief surplus in the late 1990s. This was a one-time event that will likely not happen again. With the "War on Terror" and the money pit that is Iraq, defense spending will be high for as far as the eye can see.

On top of this, we are now two decades closer to the retirement of the baby-boomers, which will put an enormous strain on both Social Security and Medicare. Instead of saving more money in the face of these future obligations, we've been raiding the Social Security trust fund to pay for general budget items. In addition, we've ADDED to our entitilement obligations by passing a prescription drug benefit to Medicare without passing any cost-containment reforms AT ALL (which is another dicussion).

Why does a deficit matter? Just as individuals cannot indefinitely spend more than they earn, countries cannot as well. There will come a time when this debt has to be paid, and the ONLY way it will be paid is with our tax dollars. Sure, the government can issue bonds, but this just defers the inevitable. Or it can print money, but inflation will go through the roof and wreck the economy. Some here say that the "economic cycle" will drag us out of debt. I seriously doubt our economy will grow at a rate that will outpace the rate of our entitlement growth when the baby-boomers hit retirement. Even the President's rosy, unrealistic budget projections see deficits for as far as they are willing to forecast.

Think we pay too much taxes and want to cut them? Fine, cut spending too. But the path that we are on is unsustainable and will lead to a LOT of pain for everyone in the future. To those that say this is like the '80s and will just blow over--you are sorely misinformed.

IMHO, bellyaching about paying higher taxes as you get richer smacks of serious short-sightedness.

You're lucky enough to have born into a country where it's not too difficult to live better than most of the world. If you're complaining about tax increases, you're lucky enough not to have to worry about putting food on your plate.

The same amount of work put out by someone born in Afghanistan would not yield the results it does here.

Seems to me, if you're able to get rich here, you should help pay more to support the infrastructure from which you benefit.

Mr. Burns - those damn swindlers in Washington are trying to bleed me dry

Smithers - we'll with our team of lawyers and creative accounts we only paid 3 dollars in taxes last year

Mr. Burns - You're right Smithers WE ARE GETTING SCREWED ! ! !


lets all keep in mind that we as American's enjoy one of the lowest overall tax rates in the world. Trust me if you think you're getting screwed it could be a hell of allot worse. This country BADLY needs tax reform out tax code is a god damn mess with more loopholes than we could ever plug. A flat tax isn't a bad place to start but there are problems with it and it would hellishly hard to ever get made in to law, but lots not give up. The best we can do is become as educated as possible and not give up on democracy.

" democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others "

The problem is that the tax structure, as it is, is set up in a manner that discourages risk, entrepreneurialism, and harder work/extra hours. MD sort of hit on this. If you're working 25 extra hours per week, but getting taxed in a manner that you're only getting paid for 12 of those hours, where is the incentive to continue to work those extra hours knowing you're giving away half your time? Additionally, if the additional income you stand to make by taking the financial risks to start your own business does not outweigh the risks involved (due to the tax burden on that additional income) where does that leave our economy. Which is more valuable, the additional tax revenue or the boost to the local economy that a successful small business can provide?

It simply isn't an issue of the rich getting taxed more and the poor getting taxed less. The reform needs to come not in the Bush tax cuts for the top 1/2 of 1% but in tax reform for the middle to upper-middle class earners that are eager to grow their income through hard work and financial risk.

Also, the real problem with the U.S. is the pork in government spending that is presently being heaped on by both sides in Washington due to absolutely zero restraint and threat of veto by G.W. The answer to the deficit shouldn't simply be raise taxes... as so many Democrats love to suggest... it should be responsible government spending. When politicians tell you school programs and national parks will be cut, it's scare mongering because they don't want to risk their pet pork project that benefits solely their constituency and thus pads their re-election.

board, I don't think anyone disagrees with you that politicians are sell-outs. Imagine how different our government would be if you were limited to 1 term as a member of the executive or legislative branch.

MD9,

I agree with you that people who work harder should not be taxed more for their extra effort and having a say in how our taxes are spent would be awesome -- everyone's money would be talking, not just corp dollars.

However, with all due respect, the assumption that people who haven't made it like you did for lack of effort is in my opinion, flawed. One's position in society is definitely a factor in whether or not you "make it." As both a victim and witness of many types of discrimination, I can honestly tell you that despite the best efforts of many people to get ahead, effort alone will not pave the way.

I agree the tax system is broke. It's not fair to the poor and it's not fair to the middle (and even the upper middle) class. The only people who see a benefit are those who make enough money to keep the majority of it in investments or in offshore.

I remeber hearing from a corporate tax accountant that if you know how and where to put the money you can avoid taxes almost completely. The problem the poor and middle class have is we must live on our wages we cannot reinvest most of it and thus leaves us open to beinging taxed.

If you have any doubt that is true check out the taxes payed by the top companies in this country. In the stats posted by PBS 10 of the top companies actually payed NO taxes and actually MADE money filing their taxes. Microsoft alone MADE almost $1 million just for filing their taxes. GE made almost $5 million. Some of their other statistics also show that corporate america only accounted for about 5% (2000?) of the total tax bill in america, but in 1960 corporate american accounted for over 60% of the tax bill in america.

I agree with meatdrink in most aspects, but here is where I disagree. I'll use doctors for my example since that is who meatdrink used. My mother works for doctors and she puts in more hours than any of them, but they think paying her $15/hour (in management so no overtime, and she is the highest paid. This is normal pay for the position in this area) is OK while they work less hours and make $200,000+ a year. She has schooling and is very good at her job, but the doctors say, "We don't have enough money to give you a raise" meanwhile they all drive Porsches and live in mansions. Now do not misunderstand I don't think my mom should make as much as doctors, but I feel that if you get rich while paying the people who work for you (and help you get rich) minimum wage or just a little above you are no better than people who abuse slave labor. (in my opinion)

I think the disparity in income is very frustrating for most people. I personally know many people who have had to take pay cuts just to keep a job meanwhile the cost of living just keeps increasing. I believe it all boils down to corporate greed. I have nothing against getting or wanting to be rich, (I want to be rich) but I disagree with poverty wages and taking advantage of others to get there.

I'll get off my soapbox now, because I have more examples, but I think you got my point.

edit- fix spelling and punctuation

Having incentive to work harder and make something of your life no matter what color, sex or plight you are born into is what makes this country unique. Once you tax the rich too much then people become less motivated and productivity falls. Look at East/West Berlin before the wall came down and China/ Hongkong.
That prevailing mindset still lingers in East Germany. I am not crazy about either Bush or Kerry but whoever is going to keep taxes down the least is getting my vote. For those people in low wage hourly jobs, Start your own janatorial company, start your own ski shop or be the best at what you do and you will be rewarded. Other people in other countries don't have that luxury and those people would do anything to live in America. Pursuit of liberty not big goverment are what make this country special. My 2 cents

I agree with the incentive part and things. I think there has to be a balance somewhere. One arguement for taxing corporations and the rich more is they and their companies use up more recsources, cause more need for repair, (ie; roads, bridges, utilities and other infrastructures) and cause more pollution.

Another problem we are starting to have is the increase of the disparity of income. We as a society need disparity, it is what makes us such a great country.

The problem I see with a huge disparity in income is low wage people stop working completely, because they say, "If I can't pay my bills working for a living and I am completely poor, why not quit working and just be completely poor with free time and rely on the Government." I have lived in mostly agricultural areas and it is sad to see those on Government help living a better life and having more money than those working 60+ hours a week.

I agree starting a business is great, but if you talk to any entrepreneur they will tell you there are things that will happen that you have no control over and sometimes those things put you out of business and leave you broke. Also starting a business doesn't guarantee you will make money infact more business fail than succeed. I would like to start my own business myself and from my research most people, who do not come from wealth, work a job while they get their business of the ground. This does not work if your job does not pay enough to atleast pay your bills. This is why a lot of people CAN'T start their own business. it's like a cylcle of poverty. You can never save enough money to start a business, because you can't pay your basic bills.

Another point is if you start a janitorial business you need employees if everyone had their own business or was in a great paying job you would be cleaning those offices yourself.

But...The complaint most people have is, "if I am working as hard as you; don't I atleast deserve to make enough money to pay my bills and have a little money to either spend or save."

I also look at countries like Hong Kong. They are a country that most people would say is more capitlolistic than we are(america). I used to work for people who are from there and the government has to subsidise so many things because the rich have inflated the prices above what the average wages can afford. Almost 70% of people in Hong Kong live in subsidised housing and most those same people can't afford cars so the Government subsidises mass transit. They also subsidise Healthcare and other essential services.

Now I'm not knocking Hong Kong (it seems to work for them), but is that what we want for America? In my opinion that would definitely affect productivity in our country and foster laziness. I think It would all but remove the desire to succeed and replaces it with a desire to just exsit.

Fair pay is a necessity for maintaining our overall standard of living. If we allow the pay disparity to become to big inevitably we will have more and more people having to rely on the Government for help and thus higher taxes and more people in poverty.

Don't get me wrong I love this country, but we (our Politicians if they weren't so useless and busy selling us out) as a country need to take a serious look at what kind of standard of living we want to have and make the necessary changes.

Sorry for the two rants I have been interested in these topics a lot recently.