“Americans must trade some privacy for security"

Brainwashed individuals who willingly support the Patriot Act, and the outright abuses and control it gives to an oppressive government, fail to realize the difficulty involved in repealing said butchering of civil rights once enacted. It's kinda like that federal
tax on telephones enacted to pay off war debts half a century ago - shit, after a while everyone just gets used to it. And it remains.

I have only voted three times in my life. Once against Nixon, once against Bush Sr. and you can bet your ass I'll vote now to get rid mr_egyptian's pal,Shrub. Only these three times in my life have I felt the absolute need to participate in the political process - out of sheer necessity and the survival of freedom.

one guy whose fingerprints (admittedly a piece of evidence that has shown it has some chinks in its armor) were mistakenly identified in Spain as being on a package of detonators. HE WAS RELEASED unscathed when they found the mistake.

for fuck's sake, you deem this on the scale of Ruby Ridge or Waco? On what grounds?

Buster, whose rights are being violated or abused when a Meth manufacturer or pipe bomb maker are prosecuted??? Or was this part of your plan also. Ohhh that's right. Forgot I was talking to a former Weathermen benefactor.

http://www.geocities.com/southernscene/edu3.html.

Once again, the revolution is over. You guys lost. The government is not out to get you. That is unless you've kept your pipe bombing, meth making friends.



Third link:

PHILADELPHIA - In the two years since law enforcement agencies gained fresh powers to help them track down and punish terrorists, police and prosecutors have increasingly turned the force of the new laws not on al-Qaida cells but on people charged with common crimes.

The Justice Department said it has used authority given to it by the PATRIOT Act to crack down on currency smugglers and seize money hidden overseas by alleged bookies, con artists and drug dealers.

Federal prosecutors used the act in June to file a charge of "terrorism using a weapon of mass destruction" against a California man after a pipe bomb exploded in his lap, wounding him as he sat in his car.

A North Carolina county prosecutor charged a man accused of running a methamphetamine lab with breaking a new state law barring the manufacture of chemical weapons. If convicted, Martin Dwayne Miller could get 12 years to life in prison for a crime that usually brings about six months.

Prosecutor Jerry Wilson says he isn't abusing the law, which defines chemical weapons of mass destruction as "any substance that is designed or has the capability to cause death or serious injury" and contains toxic chemicals.

Civil liberties and legal defense groups are bothered by the string of cases, and say the government soon will be routinely using harsh anti-terrorism laws against run-of-the-mill lawbreakers.

"Within six months of passing the PATRIOT Act, the Justice Department was conducting seminars on how to stretch the new wiretapping provisions to extend them beyond terror cases," said Dan Dodson, a spokesman for the National Association of Criminal Defense Attorneys. "They say they want the PATRIOT Act to fight terrorism. Then, within six months, they are teaching their people how to use it on ordinary citizens."

Prosecutors aren't apologizing.

Attorney General John Ashcroft completed a 16-city tour this week defending the act as key to preventing a second catastrophic terrorist attack. Federal prosecutors have brought more than 250 criminal charges under the law, with more than 130 convictions or guilty pleas.

fourth link is about the Meth Man.

fifth link.

Pete Seda's charity was raided. IRS caught him sending money to Muslims in Chechnya.

violation?? I think not.


sixth link,

http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/6353771.htm

who, what, why, where, when. This really supports your contention.


If this is getting thrashed Buster, please.

again, nice links.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
A North Carolina county prosecutor charged a man accused of running a methamphetamine lab with breaking a new state law barring the manufacture of chemical weapons. If convicted, Martin Dwayne Miller could get 12 years to life in prison for a crime that usually brings about six months.

Prosecutor Jerry Wilson says he isn't abusing the law, which defines chemical weapons of mass destruction as "any substance that is designed or has the capability to cause death or serious injury" and contains toxic chemicals.

---

So then given this definition, Counselor Wilson should be arresting Tabacco farmers. Cigarettes have been proven to contain a "substance that is designed OR has the capacity to cause death or serious injury".

and yes, I agree that meth producers and dealers should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I don't see that it is required to end civil liberties to accomplish that

Quote:

---

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
Buster, whose rights are being violated or abused when a Meth manufacturer or pipe bomb maker are prosecuted???

---

The meth manufacturer or bomb maker would be if their rights to due process were violated.
There are always innocents. What makes our government great is that we, as a people, are willing to let a few of the bad guys go in lieu of saving the innocents. This is one of the properties of a civilized peoples. Once a government is willing to sacrifice the innocent it is totalitarian and fascist.
No matter how attractive that is to you, it is a primitive construct and fortunately many of the fellow Republicans here believe that.

Quote:

---

Or was this part of your plan also. Ohhh that's right. Forgot I was talking to a former Weathermen benefactor.

---

What's your plan? Do you feel victorious in your incessant ravings. While not having the honor of being a benefactor of the weathermen, it's safe to say I know much, much more about them, their intents, successes and aftermath than you do, you ignorant putz.
For example, you have no idea who Ambrose Bierce was or what he did. It's a common misconception that he fought with Pancho Villa, yet there is no evidence to that effect. You really should try researching your claims more thoroughly.

Quote:

---

http://www.geocities.com/southernscene/edu3.html.

Once again, the revolution is over. You guys lost. The government is not out to get you. That is unless you've kept your pipe bombing, meth making friends.

---

Au contrair, the revolution lives on, we won on many fronts and are continuing to do so. Fortunately for loafing free riders like you, the benefits are not limited to some pinchbagged entitlement scheme. Ayn Rand is so passe'. Long hair? We won. Blue jeans at school? We won. Sexual freedom? we won. Nailing the FBI for illicit surveillance? We won. Nixon? We won. Vietnam? We won. The list goes on.

Quote:

---

Third link:

PHILADELPHIA - In the two years since law enforcement agencies gained fresh powers to help them track down and punish terrorists, police and prosecutors have increasingly turned the force of the new laws not on al-Qaida cells but on people charged with common crimes.

The Justice Department said it has used authority given to it by the PATRIOT Act to crack down on currency smugglers and seize money hidden overseas by alleged bookies, con artists and drug dealers.

Federal prosecutors used the act in June to file a charge of "terrorism using a weapon of mass destruction" against a California man after a pipe bomb exploded in his lap, wounding him as he sat in his car.

A North Carolina county prosecutor charged a man accused of running a methamphetamine lab with breaking a new state law barring the manufacture of chemical weapons. If convicted, Martin Dwayne Miller could get 12 years to life in prison for a crime that usually brings about six months.

Prosecutor Jerry Wilson says he isn't abusing the law, which defines chemical weapons of mass destruction as "any substance that is designed or has the capability to cause death or serious injury" and contains toxic chemicals.

Civil liberties and legal defense groups are bothered by the string of cases, and say the government soon will be routinely using harsh anti-terrorism laws against run-of-the-mill lawbreakers.

"Within six months of passing the PATRIOT Act, the Justice Department was conducting seminars on how to stretch the new wiretapping provisions to extend them beyond terror cases," said Dan Dodson, a spokesman for the National Association of Criminal Defense Attorneys. "They say they want the PATRIOT Act to fight terrorism. Then, within six months, they are teaching their people how to use it on ordinary citizens."

Prosecutors aren't apologizing.

Attorney General John Ashcroft completed a 16-city tour this week defending the act as key to preventing a second catastrophic terrorist attack. Federal prosecutors have brought more than 250 criminal charges under the law, with more than 130 convictions or guilty pleas.

---

Perhaps this reparte' is enjoyable to you, but as I said before, you really should go join and S+M club or something. But if you prefer to act the fool in this little auditorium, it's a free country after all. If you choose to display your poorly informed and stilted view of the world, that's your business.

Again, the link provides a variety of information, some of it is bound to support the totalitarian view that you espouse. However, the overwhelming majority of the information gives some evidence that there are some problems with abuse of the patriot act.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
fourth link is about the Meth Man.

fifth link.

Pete Seda's charity was raided. IRS caught him sending money to Muslims in Chechnya.

violation?? I think not.

---

You know. You're right. You think.....not.

Here's a left stilted list, if that's what you really want to ignore:
Civil Rights Headlines. Current article links.
Giving Up the Rights We Fought For, Veterans for Peace. Current article links.
Case No. C-02-3444 SI: "John Gilmore vs. John Ashcroft, et al., filed in United States District Court, Northern District of California, July 18, 2002, posted at freetotravel.org: "On July 4, 2002, Plaintiff tried to fly to Washington, DC to petition the government for redress of grievances and to associate with others for that purpose. He was stopped because he refused to identify himself before boarding the flight. ... When he asked the airline officials why, they told him the government required that the airlines ask for ID, but they could point him to no law or regulation to support their demand. That is because no such regulation has been published. For the first time in this Nation's history, the US government is using secret regulations to restrict First, Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights. ... Plaintiff objects to any requirement that he produce any government-issued document, whether it contains his identity or not, as a precondition of exercising his constitutional right to live or travel within the United States. Such 'internal passports' are anathema to a free society."
Michelle Madigan, Report Card on the Patriot Act. Government cites successes, while privacy watchdogs say failures and problems aren't publicized, pcworld, October 9, 2002.
USA-Patriot Act Abuses begin, gamersnook, December 6, 2002.
Big Hole In America's Security Net, CBSNews, May 30, 2003.
To Expand Patriot Act Abuses, Just "Reform" It, apfn.net, June 24, 2003.
Patriot Act Abuses Seen, CBSNews, July 21, 2003.
New Government Report Documents Patriot Act Abuses, TalkLeft, July 21, 2003.
Curt Anderson, Patriot Act abuses documented, Capitol Hill Blue, July 22, 2003.
ACLU News, Summer 2003.
Silence Isn't Golden, alternet.org, October 16, 2003.
z2003-08-02- Patriot Act Abuses, billseitz, last edited September 12, 2003.
Patrick Healy, Kerry pledges to end 'era of Ashcroft'. Says White House abused Patriot Act, Boston Globe, November 2, 2003.
Richard Siegel, Local View: Anti-terrorism laws are decades in the making, Las Vegas Mercury, November 13, 2003: "America's anti-terrorism laws have been primarily identified with the November 2001 USA PATRIOT Act. In the past week, reports have made clear that the act was misleadingly sold to the American people as a tool meant exclusively to fight terrorism. It is now evident that the law is actually being used in sweeping ways that go well beyond terrorists to threaten everyone's civil liberties."
Lisa Arthur and Amy Driscoll, FTAA Protests: Activists Say Many Arrests Were Unlawful. Public defenders and activists raise civil rights concerns as dozens of free-trade protesters face charges from disorderly conduct to aggravated assault, Miami Herald, November 22, 2003.
Maya Bell and Sean Mussenden, FTAA Protesters Describe Security as Police State, Knight-Ridder, November 22, 2003.
Eric Lichtblau, F.B.I. Scrutinizes Antiwar Rallies, New York Times, November 23, 2003.
Amnesty International Calls for Probe of Miami Protest Policing, Reuters, November 26, 2003.
Nicholas F. Benton, Iraq War Critics Sue After Winding Up on 'No Fly' List, Falls Church News-Press, November 27, 2003: "The New York Times reported Sunday that critics of the Bush administration's Iraq policy have sued the government to learn how their names ended up on a ['no fly' list] used to stop suspected terrorists from boarding planes. ... This latest politically-motivated abuse of power by the Bush administration, in particular Attorney General John Ashcroft, is only the beginning."
Abby Goodnough, Group Wants Investigation of Police Tactics at Miami Trade Talks, New York Times, November 27, 2003.
Jim Lobe, FBI Surveillance Plans Spur Opposition oneworld.net, November 25, 2003.
Charlie Savage, Patriot Act Hearings Sought by Democrats, Boston Globe, December 12, 2003.
A repressive embarrassment, Toledo Blade, December 13, 2003: "Without notification to foreign media outlets, the immigration and customs people are arresting, detaining, and deporting journalists arriving here without special visas. This is so even when they come from nations whose citizens can stay for up to 90 days without a visa if they are arriving as tourists or on business. ... If that threatening form of registration is not enough, members of the press arriving without the visas, which no one told them they needed, are treated like criminals, handcuffed as they’re marched through airports, photographed, fingerprinted, and their DNA taken."
Nina Bernstein, Crime Database Misused for Civil Issues, Suit Says, New York Times, December 17, 2003: "The Departments of Justice and Homeland Security are unlawfully using a national crime database to get local police departments to enforce civil immigration laws, ... The plaintiffs in the lawsuit ... contend that Attorney General John Ashcroft," Department of Homeland Security, and the FBI "are misusing the database. ... 'Ashcroft is not waiting on Congress, not waiting for the courts, but seizing power for himself under the guise of the war on terror,... It will work a sea change in the relations between police and immigration communities across the nation, to the detriment of us all'", said "Michael Wishnie, a lawyer for the plaintiffs and an associate professor at the New York University School of Law."
Ashcroft Admonished for Meddling in Terror Case, Reuters, December 17, 2003: "A federal judge strongly criticized U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft on Tuesday for violating a 'gag' order imposed during the first terror-related trial following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States."
Dan Eggen, Tapes Show Abuse of 9/11 Detainees. Justice Department Examines Videos Prison Officials Said Were Destroyed, Washington Post, December 19, 2003.
Edward Wenk, Jr., Threats to Democracy at Code-Red Level, Seattle Post-Intelligencer, December 31, 2003.
Mark Taylor, Northwestern escapes DOJ subpoena. Judge denies Ashcroft's request for patient medical records, Chicago Business, February 9, 2004: "A move by U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft to subpoena the medical records of 40 patients who received so-called partial-birth abortions at Northwestern Memorial Hospital in Chicago was halted—at least temporarily—when a Chicago federal judge quashed the information request. ... The ruling is the first in a series of subpoenas by the U.S. Justice Department seeking the medical records of patients from seven physicians and at least five hospitals, Crain's sister publication Modern Healthcare has learned. Besides Northwestern, Mr. Ashcroft is seeking patient records from University of Michigan Hospitals and Health Centers in Ann Arbor; Hahnemann University Hospital in Philadelphia, owned by Tenet Healthcare Corp.; Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center and Weill Cornell Medical Center of New York Presbyterian Hospital both of which are part of the New York-Presbyterian Healthcare System; and an unidentified San Francisco-area hospital."
Ryan J. Foley, Activist group resists handing over list, AP, February 9, 2004.
Monica Davey, An Antiwar Forum in Iowa Brings Federal Subpoenas, New York Times, February 10, 2004: "But last week, subpoenas began arriving seeking details about the forum's sponsor — its leadership list, its annual reports, its office location — and the event itself

Mr G.

Did I say anything about Ruby Ridge? or Waco? you are the only who brought that up, and it has nothing to do with the patriot act.

You asked whether the patriot act had resulted in any abuses. The answer is yes. The patriot act was used to justify breaking into an innocent man's home. Without a warrant. Another man has been held, without access to a lawyer for one year. He has not been charged with a crime.

Do you want more? People who are prohibited from flying because their names are the same as suspected terrorists? People who are prohibited from travelling because they don't have the proper identification? People who were beaten in cells because they were suspected terrorists? Unlawful use of the National Crime Database for investigation of immigration status? Unlawful Investigation of anti-war protestors? Attempts to subpeonea the medical records of women who had abortions?

Get a clue, Mr. G. These things are exactly what the constituion was drafted to prevent. This administration has already proven itself the lesser in comparison to the Nixon Administration. God help us if we let it pass.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by grrrr
Mr G.

Did I say anything about Ruby Ridge? or Waco? you are the only who brought that up, and it has nothing to do with the patriot act.

You asked whether the patriot act had resulted in any abuses. The answer is yes. The patriot act was used to justify breaking into an innocent man's home. Without a warrant. Another man has been held, without access to a lawyer for one year. He has not been charged with a crime.

Do you want more? People who are prohibited from flying because their names are the same as suspected terrorists? People who are prohibited from travelling because they don't have the proper identification? People who were beaten in cells because they were suspected terrorists? Unlawful use of the National Crime Database for investigation of immigration status? Unlawful Investigation of anti-war protestors? Attempts to subpeonea the medical records of women who had abortions?

Get a clue, Mr. G. These things are exactly what the constituion was drafted to prevent. This administration has already proven itself the lesser in comparison to the Nixon Administration. God help us if we let it pass.

---

Very well stated, or in the vernacular: WERD!

Quote:

---

Originally posted by hopped
...I think that Washington needs an enema, and I don't think it's going to happen, so as we keep voting for the lesser of two evils, the country will go further downhill, into a society none of us want. As I said, I'm jaded with Amrican politics, and don't see a good solution other than trying to change what is there and doing wrong right now. And that's temporary at best.

---

I've long wanted to have at the bottom of the ballot a choice of "None of the above, and the above are NOT permitted to run for this office again."

Just offering a cleansing solution that'll never happen. I can dream though.

I think government should be more intrusive. In fact, I hereby invite John Ashcroft to my home, where he can run his fingers through my underwear drawer; check my freezer for proper de-frosting and see if I'm failing to properly observe odd/even watering days. Then he can perform a visual body cavity search up my ass...for that matter, my dog and cat will allow him the same privilege.

Looking forward to hearing from you John.

Totalitarian views?? What I'm saying is that the constant demagoguing of the Patriot Act is ridiculous. It has not been employed to devolve our basic rights as screech monkey's like yourself claim. If it is employed to prosecute people that manufacture meth or pipe bombs. fine by me.

The examples illustrated seem to be using the Patriot Act in the same fashion as hate crime legislation. I wouldn't thingk it impossible for a lawyer to side step prosecution tactics such as these.


As far as these many "wins" for the revolution. Nixon defeated himself, pure and simple. He was a small, corrupt individual.

God forbid we even consider someone in the government abusing and perverting any element of the Patriot Act to quash offending points of view, further their own political party's position, pad their pocketbooks, become a despotic ruler, or annihilate some portion of the population. That's as ridiculous as saying we would resort to torturing our detainees.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
one guy whose fingerprints (admittedly a piece of evidence that has shown it has some chinks in its armor) were mistakenly identified in Spain as being on a package of detonators. HE WAS RELEASED unscathed when they found the mistake.

---

If you went through what he did (keep in mind it's his real name, not his internet alias), would you consider yourself unscathed?

Off the trail of the thread, just curious. Seems like a pretty ridiculous comment to me.

Mr._G, you are a fanatic nutcase, perhaps liberated to go with the flow of your crazyism by the sales figures of Fords in Summit County, or conversely the lack thereof.

You're not even amusing, which is the ultimate crime. I can take crazy people if they're funny. Or at the very least original.

Boy I just hope to be treated as well as we've them in the Iraqi prisons, when the good ol' U S of A decides I'm a menace.



:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention!!

:eek: :eek: :confused: :eek:

Vote republican, its easier than thinking!

The Patriot Act allows (among other things):

The right to freely monitor the activities political and religious groups without a criminal pretext.

New restrictions on open hearings and the public's right to receive information through the Freedom of Information Act.

The ability to stamp down on the dangerous menace of librarians who tip off the media to federal subpoenas of borrowing records.

Permission to monitor conversations between lawyers and suspects.

The ability to detain Americans in prison indefinitely without trial or criminal charge.
--------------

.... and lets not even get into Patriot Act II.

We are having our rights taken away from us. When you say, "america is great"; or that "we are free"; some of the rights - those things that make America great - are the ones taken away by the Patriot act.

As as a friend of mine put it, "I'm willing to terror-die for a free society."

Now it occurs to me that such an argument doesn't fly with some. "So," you reply, "I'm willing to give that up. I'm no terrorist, I have nothing to hide."
We could go back and forth on this, with me trying to figure out how much of a right to privacy you feel entitled to; would you mind the police searching your house once a day just on principle, for example? But whatever....

So let's talk about human nature instead. Humans are nasty, evil little monsters. We do bad things to one another regularly and enjoy it. We not only need government to protect us from ourselves; but we need to be protected from government. Power corrupts, never forget that.
So let's take another look at the patriot act and wonder whether you would approve of it if Hillary were president and Reno was A.G. again? Would you be cool with those two having that sort of power? Are you sure that they would never abuse it? That it would only be used against "bad people"? (‘bad people’, by your definition, not including gun selling/hoarding 14-year old fucking religious zealots)

Fun Patriot Act fact #234 – Did you know the full name is: “Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001'. Yup folks, that breaks down to USA PATRIOT Act of 2001. Adults created that, never forget.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Buster Highmen
Further proof that a vote for Bush is a vote for fascist autocracy.

---

Vote for Kerry and help us out.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by mr_gyptian

A North Carolina county prosecutor charged a man accused of running a methamphetamine lab with breaking a new state law barring the manufacture of chemical weapons. If convicted, Martin Dwayne Miller could get 12 years to life in prison for a crime that usually brings about six months.

Prosecutor Jerry Wilson says he isn't abusing the law, which defines chemical weapons of mass destruction as "any substance that is designed or has the capability to cause death or serious injury" and contains toxic chemicals.

[/B]

---

lol!

I can just see the headlines now:

"Phillip Morris Ceo prosecuted as terrorist..." :rolleyes:

"Monsanto Ceo prosecuted as terrorist"
(and if you know anything about "Plan Colombia" you will see that chemical warfare is indeed being conducted against the people of that country, and Monsanto has a big role to play in that)

but no, actually I don't see those headlines anytime soon

edit: doh! people already beat me to it on the tobacco thing...

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Al K. Duh
Vote for Kerry and help us out.

---

vote for Bush and soon Iraqis will be as free as Americans... or wait, maybe I said that backwards.

gyptian v buster is getting sooo old

-----------------------------------------------

and I'm not a Republican for the 7928194187598415th time

this board is way left of center. thats why everyone assumes i am a "republican" :-p

"republican, conservative, liberal, democrat..." such idiotic labels and too simplistic IMO

i'm pro usa, pro constitution and ammendments, and pro freedom (runs, hides) :D and a bunch of other stuff too and then some more.

i don't defend with kneejerk reactions the "conservatives" or the "liberals" or tow party lines

i'm a moderate independent with extreme views. :p

-----------------------------------------------

DARPA has a massive amount of projects. My grandfather used to do high level work for their aerospace projects. Most DARPA projects are great and will lead to a more advanced military and secure country for all of us. However, and people really need to understand this, the best agency OR PEOPLE can have some horrible ideas along with the good!

-----------------------------------------------

TIA was set up to datamine from the thousands of corporate and advertising databases.

The key to TIA wasn't that most of this info wasn't already there, it's that htey would have all the data in one place for instant access and continuous monitoring of EVERYONE.

The Key to TIA

Previously, when the government got someone suspicious, they would datamine them and they'd get the info back in a day. TIA was made so they could have all the info in one spot so it wouldn't take a day. This means the government security aparatus has available info, dossiers, on all citizens, not just those they were particularly suspicious of.Once they had it all in one place, they decided, why not be proactive (standard abuse of power)? "Lets run algorithms on everyone in that database and see if we can pick up suspicious activity." So suddenlty everyone is being watched and scanned all the time looking to make sure we aren't up to anything "suspicious." Etc.

-----------------------------------------------

Will Kerry actually restore civil liberties this administration took? I doubt it. Taking powers that law enforcement organizations and other security types "need to do their jobs" is as contentious an issue as was taking our liberties in the first place. If we give up rights to .gov, don't expect to get them back anytime soon.

The USA "PATRIOT" Act was not a left v right issue. Both sides of the aisle voted for it. It was a power grab. It was orchastrated by certain factions. They knew they had only limited time to get it forced through congress while there were in a "vote for security ask quesitons later" mindset. Had it come up a few months later, it likely wouldn't have passed. As it was, the Act only passed because the harliners compromised by inserting language that would allow provisions to sunset. However, as I said before, taking powers from LEO and other security types is as contentious an issue as taking our liberty in the first place. This is the concept that the authoritarian types are relying upon to allow the renewel and/or strengthening of the act in these "calmer" times.

Ashcroft is definately authoritarian, if not pro-totalitarian. (Missouri elected a dead man governor rather than have Ashcroft.) Anyone who has read the frightening Patriot II Act that he had drafted knows what horrors we are in for when another 9-11 scale event happens. But this isn't a left vs right issue. Once people get past the idiotic one dimensional scale the 24-hour watered down news agencies on the idiot box (and I'm talking CNN AND FOX and the rest of them) have thrust upon us, they will see that.

-----------------------------------------------

This really does scare me. Ideologicaly loyalty beyond belief on both sides of the spectrum. Many people believe we are as polarized as we have been in a long time. To the libs, Clinton could do no wrong even when he did and it scared me. Now there are a bunch of conservatives who refuse to belive the W is doing bad things too. They come up with all sorts of thought hoops they then jump through to convince themselvese that "it ain't so" just because W is a conservative or the source was "left wing" or whatever. It all scares me. We should be Americans first and political ideology worshipers second. The Constitutions + Ammendments uber alles.

It is not a new concept, nor a "left wing" or "right wing" idea, but there is no quesiton that the current administration and many of their followers believe:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by iceman
Mr._G, you are a fanatic nutcase, perhaps liberated to go with the flow of your crazyism by the sales figures of Fords in Summit County, or conversely the lack thereof.

You're not even amusing, which is the ultimate crime. I can take crazy people if they're funny. Or at the very least original.

---

Fanatic nutcase? That's what I love about you people. You treat conservativism as a disease. I express different opinions than your own obviously deeply held beliefs and I'm the fascist. The thought police around here is laughable. I can't tell if it's indymedia or moveon that sent you here.

That I'm not amusing to you, Ice, is of little consequence. Oh, sales are fine in Summit County. I really don't care what it is you do, but as I said before. I doubt it's much. you're on pace to crest 4000 posts by July. Get a job you hump.

I think what Ice was trying to say was that you're getting old. Your tone is crass and inpersonable. Your presentation of a subject alone tunes people out.
It's not the message, It's the messenger.
Dead horse. Move on.

When it comes time to name names, I'm going to name mr_gyptian just for the irony.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by phUnk
When it comes time to name names, I'm going to name mr_gyptian just for the irony.

---

Heh, that's pretty funny Mr. McCarthy.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SummitCo 1776

and I'm not a Republican for the 7928194187598415th time

this board is way left of center. thats why everyone assumes i am a "republican" :-p

"republican, conservative, liberal, democrat..." such idiotic labels and too simplistic IMO

i'm pro usa, pro constitution and ammendments, and pro freedom (runs, hides) :D and a bunch of other stuff too and then some more.

---

yeah you better run. The Constitution's been declared illegal... it was written on hemp paper

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SummitCo 1776


-----------------------------------------------

Will Kerry actually restore civil liberties this administration took? I doubt it. Taking powers that law enforcement organizations and other security types "need to do their jobs" is as contentious an issue as was taking our liberties in the first place. If we give up rights to .gov, don't expect to get them back anytime soon.

---

Giving up your rights: Popping out of your bindings and starfishing down a 45 degree slope

Getting them back: Hiking back to the top to retrieve your boards

(and no, there is no chairlift that goes to the top of freedom mountain)

So let's talk about human nature instead. Humans are nasty, evil little monsters. We do bad things to one another regularly and enjoy it. :mad:
http://alberta.indymedia.org/uploads...explosives.jpg

uh... wth, interloper?

Apparently some people are confused on what happened 9/11. Is this a ploy to manipulate the American people ? In order to serve and protect some personal rights must be foresaken for the good of the country.

Quote:

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Originally posted by interloper
Apparently some people are confused on what happened 9/11. Is this a ploy to manipulate the American people ? In order to serve and protect some personal rights must be foresaken for the good of the country.

---

Apparently some people are confused that under the guise of serving and protecting the American people, this country could rapidly become no different than any other totalitarian state anywhere in the world.

Is it not our freedom, civil rights, personal rights, privacy, and constitutional guarantees that sets us apart from said totalitarian states? Is it all really that black and white?

Every other country in the world, and virtually all have had attacks of some sort within their borders - Did they resort to panic totalitarianism and forfeit the battle to be free by bestowing unbridled empowerment to their governments?
Perhaps the ones that remain totalitarian.

black and white, black and white, black and white, black and white...

just saw this saying for the first time today and it kinda made me chuckle. It was a context having nothing to do with the patriot act, but it seems relevant-

"if we don't change the direction we are headed, we are likely to end up where we are going"

[PSA]In response to our needs for total security, we will now be changing the slogan to "America, land of the safe and home of the scared." [/psa]

" Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children....what it was once like in the United States where men were free."

- Ronald Reagan

Mission creep? A new bill could expand the Pentagon's ability to gather intelligence inside the United States
By Michael Isikoff
Investigative Correspondent
NewsweekJune 21 issue

Last February, two Army counterintelligence agents showed up at the University of Texas law school and demanded to see the roster from a conference on Islamic law held a few days earlier. Their reason: they were trying to track down students who the agents claimed had been asking "suspicious" questions. "I felt like I was in 'Law & Order'," said one student after being grilled by one of the agents. The incident provoked a brief campus uproar, and the Army later admitted the agents had exceeded their authority. But if the Pentagon has its way, the Army may not have to make such amends in the future. Without any public hearing or debate, NEWSWEEK has learned, Defense officials recently slipped a provision into a bill before Congress that could vastly expand the Pentagon's ability to gather intelligence inside the United States, including recruiting citizens as informants.

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Ever since the 1970s, when Army intel agents were caught snooping on antiwar protesters, military intel agencies have operated under tight restrictions inside the United States. But the new provision, approved in closed session last month by the Senate Intelligence Committee, would eliminate one big restriction: that they comply with the Privacy Act, a Watergate-era law that requires government officials seeking information from a resident to disclose who they are and what they want the information for. The CIA always has been exempt—although by law it isn't supposed to operate inside the United States. The new provision would now extend the same exemption to Pentagon agencies such as the Defense Intelligence Agency—so they can help track terrorists. A report by the Senate Intelligence Committee says the provision would allow military intel agents to "approach potential sources and collect personal information from them" without disclosing they work for the government. The justification: "Current counterterrorism operations," the report explains, which require "greater latitude ... both overseas and within the United States." DIA officials say they mainly want the provision so they can more easily question American businessmen and college students who travel abroad. But Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman concedes the provision will also be helpful in investigating suspected terrorist threats to military bases and contractors inside the United States. "It's a new world we live in," he says. "We have to do what is necessary for force protection." Among those pushing for the provision, sources say, were officials at northcom, the new Colorado-based command set up by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld to oversee "homeland defense." Pentagon lawyers insist agents will still be legally barred from domestic "law enforcement." But watchdog groups see a potentially alarming "mission creep." "This... is giving them the authority to spy on Americans," said Kate Martin, director of the Center for National Security Studies, a group frequently critical of the war on terror. "And it's all been done with no public discussion, in the dark of night."

Patriot Act: Scary in any context. Especially if you are a law abiding, Arab American.

But my question is: What would you think if your entire family was killed by an Anglo American man on a mission from Allah?

On the lighter side:

This guy has some entertaining things to say.
http://www.celebrityhypocrites.com/dmiller1.jpg

Dennis Miller ACLU Rant

Quote:

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Originally posted by interloper
http://alberta.indymedia.org/uploads...explosives.jpg

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Off topic, but interesting (to me).

I'm not too sure that Interloper knows where that photo comes from... or at least what the hell those red lines mean. (If I'm wrong, sorry interloper... you weren't too clear man.)

That image is taken from a conspiracy theory. I've seen it lots of places, but that particular one comes from IndyMedia. (I love IndyMedia because it allows anyone to post anything... but.... it allows anyone it post anything.)

That image is seen as "proof" for the conspiracy theory that the towers were rigged to explode. The red boxes are meant to indicate evidence of explosive charges blowing out the lower floors, thus allowing the upper floors to fall. The larger red boxes are meant to indicate that shape that some believe the upper tower would hold as it collapsed.

I'm no structural engineer, but I'm pretty sure that if the inner structure of a building collapsed, sending several floors crashing down into lower floors I suspect that:
1) before the exterior frame collapsed the windows would be blown out by the collapse of the interior. (entire floors smashing down into one another and whatnot.)
2) the collapse of floors would propogate. (am I using that word right?) The falling mass would gather such energy that even the undamaged floors of the building would also collapse.

The conspiracy theory in question also claims that had the building actually collapsed (and not been intentionally destroyed) then the upper section, above the impact zone, would hold a form similar to that of the larger red block in picture 227, 241, and 255. Of course, if you look at the undoctored photos you can see traces of the upper building holding some of its form.

...'tis a silly conspiracy theory I say.

All this plus some guy with a meth lab getting charged with producing weapons of mass destruction and an artist getting the 3rd degree for "biological warfare" when his painting involed the use of some bacteria.

http://www.timesrecordnews.com/trn/n...962597,00.html

Post-9/11 laws expand to more than terrorism
By LANCE GAY
June 14, 2004


Federal and state prosecutors are applying stiff antiterrorism laws adopted after the 9/11 attacks to broad, run-of-the-mill probes of political corruption, financial crimes and immigration frauds.

If the government gets its way, even routine transactions of buying or selling American homes could soon come under the scrutiny of money-laundering provisions of the USA Patriot Act. The Treasury Department, which already has caught up financial transactions in casinos, storefront check-cashing stores and auto dealers for scrutiny, wants to expand Patriot Act coverage to home purchases as well.

Since 9/11, critics say the greatest effect of new state and federal antiterrorism laws has been on crimes already covered by other laws.

Washington-area snipers John Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo were both convicted under a post-9/11 Virginia antiterrorism statute making it a death-penalty offense to be involved in more than one murder in a three-year period. Muhammad was sentenced to death, and Malvo was given life imprisonment without parole.good!

The FBI has used Patriot Act provisions in a political corruption probe involving a Las Vegas girlie bar, and the Justice Department reported to the House Judiciary Committee last year that it used the new law in probes of credit-card fraud, theft from a bank account and a kidnapping.

In the first action of its kind, the Treasury Department also used the Patriot Act this year to put Syria's largest commercial bank and two commercial banks in Myanmar on blacklists - actions that forbid any U.S. financial institution from doing business with them.

Legal experts say they're not surprised that antiterrorism laws are being used for more than just terrorism.

Peter Swire, a law professor at Ohio State University, recalled that Congress adopted antiracketeering laws in 1970 with the intent to thwart mobsters, but the punitive laws have since been broadened and put to use in civil cases against corporations, and most recently against the organized campaigns of pro-life protesters against abortion clinics.

Swire worked in the Clinton administration and chaired a White House working group looking at issues involved with electronic surveillance. He said many Patriot Act provisions, which sped through Congress within days after 9/11, were proposals that either Congress or the White House had previously rejected. Many provisions are slated to expire next year unless Congress makes the changes permanent.

Swire said one little-noted impact of that law on the judicial system is that prosecutors can add more charges against defendants, even when terrorism isn't involved.

"Prosecutors like to have more arrows in their quiver - it gives them more leverage in plea bargaining," he said. Plea bargaining is the process where prosecutors offer to drop some charges in return for a defendant's guilty plea in order to avoid costly, time-consuming trials.

Swire contends the Patriot Act has been so controversial that the Justice Department has been very cautious in using all of its provisions.

"They are careful because they know people are checking to see if it is abused," he said. "Once it becomes permanent, I think it will be used more widely."

The American Civil Liberties Union and other civil rights groups are campaigning for Congress to terminate some of the more controversial provisions of the Patriot Act, contending the law unnecessarily expands government powers.

The ACLU says the government already has sufficient investigative tools, and the Patriot Act has been used for non-terrorist-related crimes such as seizing stolen funds from bank accounts in Belize.

Michael Mello, a law professor at Vermont Law School, disagrees and said the Patriot Act made some needed changes in government procedures, including provisions that tore down barriers that prohibited the FBI and CIA from sharing information.

"There's been a sea change by tearing down that wall," said Mello. "To forbid the FBI from getting spooks' (CIA) information that someone in the United States was carrying out a significant criminal enterprise is insane."

In spite of the criticism from the ACLU and others, Mello said he doesn't believe the Patriot Act has been misused or has resulted in any expansion of government powers. "In the absence of evidence, the critics lose," he said.

Mello agrees that there are some provisions in the Patriot Act that should be allowed to expire. He opposes a controversial provision allowing the Justice Department to use so-called "national security letters" to obtain library records, medical records and banking records of people put under surveillance. The Patriot Act wasn't needed when police searched library records in the hunt for Unabomber Ted Kaczynski or the effort to track New York's Zodiac killer, Mello noted.

Many government activities under the Patriot Act remain shrouded in secrecy. One of the provisions not expiring is an expansion of police powers to obtain "sneak-and-peek" warrants allowing surveillances - including break-ins - without notifying the people being watched.

The government is being more aggressive in asking courts for surveillance warrants. The Justice Department last year made a record 1,727 requests for wiretap approvals from the secretive Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, but does not publicly disclose how many investigations that might involve.

Attorney General John Ashcroft told the Senate Judiciary Committee last week that the Patriot Act has been used judiciously, and he urged Congress to give speedy consideration to extending it.

(Contact Lance Gay at GayL(at)shns.com. Distributed by Scripps Howard News Service, http://www.shns.com)

...'tis a silly conspiracy theory I say. Agreed.