Lakota secede from United States

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Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

I was using Taiwan as an example of an independent country (and most rational non-mainland Chinese would consider it such) that is not acknowledged by the United Nations, thereby illustrating the pointlessness of UN membership as the arbiter of sovereignity.

So it's not legal and the courts wouldn't recognize them. So what? Would we go to war if they seceded illegally?

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I didn't use the UN as the arbiter of sovereignty, I was merely responding to someone else who mentioned it.

Let us assume that a legitimately elected tribal government did declare its secession from the union. If they did nothing else, ie if they continued to act as law abiding US citizens, I don't know what would happen. The US would surely make it clear that their declaration was unlawful and had no effect, but if the tribe and its members didn't "do" anything more, I doubt the U.S. would do more.

Let us now assume that this tribe did take some action. Say, they took over the local IHS clinic and kicked out the federal employees. The feds would not "go to war" in the sense that it is a ridiculous notion. But you can be DAMN sure that they would step in, with force, and retake possession of their property, and arrest everyone involved.

I have no doubt that they would take the Dude's hard line, this aggression will not stand, man.

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Originally Posted by Tye 1on

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unless the UN comes up with some strong aboriginal rights program that the US bought in to...

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which sounds rather unlikely...

Muy interesting Danno ! thanks for the insight.

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Originally Posted by Tippster

Pretty sure they're considered Nations in the eyes of the UN - see the Inuit in Canada. Just because a Nation is subjugated and assimilated by it's oppressors doesn't mean it ceases to exist. I'm also not so sure about their being "wards" of the state, since they are governed by themselves separate from the States they are located in.

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Since when did we give a fuck about anything the UN says unless its from the Security Council, which we have a veto over.

And the "nations" are sovereign only to the extent they are allowed by treaty and Congress.

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Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

And if you are big enough and strong enough you can keep the money.

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Problem: These guys are not big and strong enough. They lost the big and strong contest a while ago and are now stuck playing the Federal Government's game. Until they become big and strong, the Federal Gov't is the only game in town.
Unfortunately, the game is does not have rules in their favor. And playing the game will most likely result in loosing the game. Their best hope for advancing this line of action is some movement in the legislature - essentially get enough people to say, "Hey, this is kinda fucked up right here. Someone should pass a law." Hopefully then, Congress passes a law and the rules change in their favor.

As for what is actually best for Native Americans as group? Beats me. How do you restore a culture that's been so thoroughly fucked for such a long time? At what point do you throw in the towel and take YetiMan's line?

Oh yeah, the English have bad teeth, good beer, bad fried food, ugly women, uglier men, dry wit, subtle humor, but also Benny Hill and Monty Python, a lot of fog I'm told, and if Dick Van Dyke has any skills as an actor then I believe the lot of you talk funny.

"For America to Live,
Europe Must Die"

The following speech was given by Russell Means in July 1980, before several thousand people who had assembled from all over the world for the Black Hills International Survival Gathering, in the Black Hills of South Dakota. It is [said to be] Russell Means's most famous speech
........

The only possible opening for a statement of this kind is that I detest writing. The process itself epitomizes the European concept of "legitimate" thinking; what is written has an importance that is denied the spoken. My culture, the Lakota culture, has an oral tradition, so I ordinarily reject writing. It is one of the white world's ways of destroying the cultures of non-European peoples, the imposing of an abstraction over the spoken relationship of a people.

So what you read here is not what I have written. It is what I have said and someone else has written down. I will allow this because it seems that the only way to communicate with the white world is through the dead, dry leaves of a book. I don't really care whether my words reach whites or not. They have already demonstrated through their history that they cannot hear, cannot see; they can only read (of course, there are exceptions, but the exceptions only prove the rule). I'm more concerned with the American Indian people, students and others, who have begun to be absorbed into the white world through universities and other institutions. But even then it's a marginal sort of concern. It's very possible to grow into a red face with a white mind; and if that's a person's individual choice, so be it, but I have no use for them. This is part of the process of cultural genocide being waged by Europeans against American Indian peoples' today. My concern is with those American Indians who choose to resist this genocide, but may be confused as to how to proceed.

(You notice I use the term American Indian rather than Native American or Native indigenous people or Amerindian when referring to my people.) There has been some controversy about such terms, and frankly, at this point, I find it absurd. Primarily it seems that American Indian is being rejected as European in origin - which is true. But all the above terms are European in origin; the only non-European way is to speak of Lakota - or, more precisely, of Oglala, Brule, et. - and of the Dineh, the Miccousukee, and all the rest of the several hundred correct tribal names.

(There is also some confusion about the word Indian , a mistaken belief that it refers somehow to the country, India. When Columbus washed up on the beach in the Caribbean, he was not looking for a country called India. Europeans were calling that country Hindustan in 1492. Look it up on the old maps. Columbus called the tribal people he met "Indio," from the Italian in dio , meaning "in God.")

It takes a strong effort on the part of each American Indian not to become Europeanized. The strength for this effort can only come from the traditional ways, the traditional values that our elders retain. It must come from the hoop, the four directions, the relations: it cannot come from the pages of a book or a thousand books. No European can ever teach a Lakota to be Lakota, a Hopi to be Hopi. A master's degree in "Indian Studies" or in "education" or in anything else cannot make a person into a human being or provide knowledge into the traditional ways. It can only make you into a mental European, an outsider.

I should be clear about something here, because there seems to be some confusion about it. When I speak of Europeans or mental Europeans, I'm not allowing for false distinctions. I'm not saying that on the one hand there are the by-products of a few thousand years of genocidal, reactionary European intellectual development which is bad; and on the other hand there is some new revolutionary intellectual development which is good. I'm referring here to the so-called theories of Marxism and anarchism and "leftism" in general. I don't believe these theories can be separated from the rest of the European intellectual tradition. It's really just the same old song.

The process began much earlier. Newton, for example, "revolutionized" physics and the so-called natural science by reducing the physical universe to a linear mathematical equation.

[JS Dill note:

...we are not witnessing a peculiar twist in the fortunes of postwar Europe and America, an aberation that can be tied to such late twentieth-century problems as inflation, loss of empire, and the like. Rather, we are witnessing the inevitable outcome of a logic that is already centuried old, and which is beng played out in our lifetime.

The collapse of capitalism, the general dysfunction of institutions, the revulsion against ecological spoilation, the increasing inability of od the scientific world view to explain the things that really matter, the loss of interest in work, and the statistical rise in depression, anxiety, and outright psychosis are all of a piece.

The Reenchantment of the World, Morris Berman, ISBN 0-8014-9225-4]

Descartes did the same thing with culture. John Locke did it with politics, and Adam Smith did it with economics. Each one of these "thinkers" took a piece of the spirituality of human existence and converted it into a code, an abstraction. They picked up where Christianity ended: they "secularized" Christian religion, as the "scholars" like to say - and in doing so they made Europe more able and ready to act as an expansionist culture. Each of these intellectual revolutions served to abstract the European mentality even further, to remove the wonderful complexity and spirituality from the universe and replace it with a logical sequence: one, two, three. Answer!.

This is what has come to be termed "efficiency" in the European mind. Whatever is mechanical is perfect; whatever seems to work at the moment - that is, proves the mechanical model to be the right one - is considered correct, even when it is clearly untrue. This is why "truth" changes so fast in the European mind; the answers which result from such a process are only stopgaps, only temporary, and must be continuously discarded in favor of new stopgaps which support the mechanical models and keep them (the models) alive.

Hegel and Marx were heirs to the thinking of Newton, Descartes, Locke and Smith. Hegel finished the process of secularizing theology - and that is put in his own terms - he secularized the religious thinking through which Europe understood the universe. Then Marx put Hegel's philosophy in terms of "materialism," which is to say that Marx despiritualized Hegel's work altogether. Again, this is in Marx' own terms. And this is now seen as the future revolutionary potential of Europe. Europeans may see this as revolutionary, But American Indians see it simply as still more of that same old European conflict between being and gaining . The intellectual roots of a new Marxist form of European imperialism lie in Marx' - and his followers' - links to the tradition of Newton, Hegel, and the others.

Being is a spiritual proposition. Gaining is a material act. Traditionally, American Indians have always attempted to be the best people they could. Part of that spiritual process was and is to give away wealth, to discard wealth in order not to gain. Material gain is an indicator of false status among traditional people, while it is "proof that the system works" to Europeans. Clearly, there are two completely opposing views at issue here, and Marxism is very far over to the other side from the American Indian view. But lets look at a major implication of this; it is not merely an intellectual debate.

The European materialist tradition of despiritualizing the universe is very similar to the mental process which goes into dehumanizing another person. And who seems most expert at dehumanizing other people? And why? Soldiers who have seen a lot of combat learn to do this to the enemy before going back into combat. Murderers do it before going out to commit murder. Nazi SS guards did it to concentration camp inmates. Cops do it. Corporation leaders do it to the workers they send into uranium mines and steel mills. Politicians do it to everyone in sight. And what the process has in common for each group doing the dehumanizing is that it makes it all right to kill and otherwise destroy other people. One of the Christian commandments says, "Thou shalt not kill," at least not humans, so the trick is to mentally convert the victims into nonhumans. Then you can proclaim violation of your own commandment as a virtue.

......
Capitalists, at least, can be relied upon to develop uranium as fuel only at the rate at which they can show a good profit. That's their ethic, and maybe that will buy some time. Marxists, on the other hand, can be relied upon to develop uranium fuel as rapidly as possible simply because it's the most "efficient" production fuel available. That's their ethic, and I fail to see where it's preferable. Like I said, Marxism is right smack in the middle of the European tradition. It's the same old song.

There's a rule of thumb that can be applied here. You cannot judge the real nature of a revolutionary doctrine on the basis of the changes it proposed to make within the European power structure and society. You can only judge it by the effect it will have on non-European peoples. This is because every revolution in European history has served to reinforce Europe's tendencies and abilities to export destruction to other peoples, other cultures and the environment itself. I defy anyone to point out an example where this is not true.
.......

cont...
http://www.dickshovel.com/Banks.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

I was using Taiwan as an example of an independent country (and most rational non-mainland Chinese would consider it such) that is not acknowledged by the United Nations, thereby illustrating the pointlessness of UN membership as the arbiter of sovereignity.

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Taiwan is not a independent nation. Dont follow Taiwanese politics do you? They have never declared independence nor will they in the near future. In fact the ruling party just pledged NOT to declare independence last week.

So why isnt Taiwan in the UN? Becuase it is not an independent country. We can argue the semantics about what an independent country means, but in the eye of the UN it is part of China.

Also, Tawain was a member of the UN until the PRC took its seat in the 1970's as part of the appease the Chinese to piss off the Soviets and exacerbate the Sino-Soviet split.

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Originally Posted by Gripen

So why isnt Taiwan in the UN? Becuase it is not an independent country.

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< shrug > arguing in circles. they've their own economy, laws, defense force, airlines. de facto they are their own nation < shrug >

last I saw the Taiwanese president is still planning to hold a referendum on UN membership < shrug >

Yea... it has applied fifteen times since 1971. Gets shot down down by Assembly Resolution 2758 every time.

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2007/ga10617.doc.htm

Old Russell just wants to lead some into another stupid massacre before he dies. May sound harsh, but, get over it. You ain't gonna win nothin'.

Aw, fuck it.

Great thread. And to think that only a couple days ago people gave me shit for saying Spook posts some interesting stuff from time to time.

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Originally Posted by Tippster

Aw, fuck it.

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I guess we lost.

I'm telling the boss to lick my dick and going skiing. What are you doing when you don't show up on Friday?

Here are some commments from the Rapid City Journal.
More info can be found here
http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/arti...rue#commentdiv

Lakota group secedes from U.S.
By Bill Harlan, Journal staff Friday, December 21, 2007
230 comment(s)

Rapid Reply
Hide Comments230 comment(s)
OK!
wrote on Dec 21, 2007 11:36 AM:

" I am a Oglala Lakota Sioux. Born and raised on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation. And lived here a majority of my life. I am a hard working mother of four children. I do not qualify for any type of assistance and have received handouts in forms of scholarships and pell grant and higher ed. My mother and father worked all their lifes and so did my grand parents. Alot of what is being said is the truth! And the truth hurts! Expecially when heard from someone else! Some Native Americans on the rez are lazy! And just want money for free to live for free. There are so many jobs that get advertised on a weekly basis here on the rez! Where are all the applicants? And if hired, they get lazy and quit and go back to the handouts. They were never tought the meaning of "work for what you want, nothings free" The public safety is corrupt and the school system is about two years behind national average! But who is going to do anything about it? NO ONE! Everyone sits her and bitches and wines but no one will do anything about it! Scared? Maybe, not education? Definitely! I worked since I was 14. Since 2000 I worked for a program funded by the government. BUT I WORK for what I get! and I work hard! I earn my money! And all the people I work with work had for they they get also. Our progam doesn't GIVE us money to go stay in RC every pow wow or basketball game. The money is used for a better purpose and If i want to go, i'll use my hard earned money to go watch! THe handouts givin to the people should be worked for! They should give them hourly wages and pay for time worked. Not just givin! I hav elived off the rez and have to admit! I like it better! You never hear of people cryin around about not receiving something free or why another family got more then I did cause i'm more needy! Only if that could come back to my homeland! Even back in the day of Tipis and having all the land, Native Americans worked for their food and shelter! Come on guys! Grow up and grow with the times! Nothings free and the things that are arent worth your time! "


Grandpa Russ
wrote on Dec 21, 2007 11:28 AM:

" I hope this was a good move you did considering that we have a federally funded health care facility on the reservation. Well I hope that you and the rest of the crew thought long and hard before comming to this conclusion. Remember the oyate and dont make us suffer for this. "


Gina
wrote on Dec 21, 2007 11:22 AM:

" WoW! How exciting and scary at the same time! I'd love to learn more about the movement, especially the economic sustainability aspects. "


Joseph Budd
wrote on Dec 21, 2007 11:21 AM:

" Ah yes, another story on Means' method of madness. What's next? He'll claim to own the entire western half of the US? Means seems to have forgotten several things in his tantrum. First of all, the Pine Ridge Reservation, and several others, rank either last, or next to last, in the nation, for employment, lifespan, etc. Turning it into a independent Nation isn't going to solve anything....but could cause another Wounded Knee. Second, If he thinks, with a announcement, that the State Dept is simply going to roll out a map, scribble a new country into existence, it won't happen either. For the simple fact, no matter what Means says, he was born in America...last time I saw, you can't suddenly get an idea to remove yourself from the US, and take the land with you....just doesn't work that way. Lastly, the Government would be stupid to give in to Means, because if he does that, then what's to stop the latino population, from demanding california, and other lands won, from mexico, or England demanding back the 13 colonies? Maybe Means should just leave instead....after all, most people admit he's full of hot air. "


OK
wrote on Dec 21, 2007 11:14 AM:

" Can I have the American government issued checks that the renouncers used to receive? Or will we still issue them checks, even though they were wronged? Curious. I would imagine that they have yet to think that far ahead. It is tragic that the native people lost the land. But they did lose it in a war. That's what happens...especially when a knife is brought to a gun fight. I wasn't there but I still receive the hate and the bill for it. "


poor white trash
wrote on Dec 21, 2007 11:11 AM:

" I am poor white trash and i am tired of working a minimum wage job and eating hot dogs and macaroni and cheese. Can i move to the rez and have a home given to me and food put on my table? I promise that i will to the best of my ability, complain that whatever is given me is never enough, and will make the white man the focus of my failures, every chance that i get. I promise that i will not be happy with anything the white man does for me, and will always want more. I will teach my children, first and foremost, That the white man is responsible for our shortcoming's, and should they ever do anything wrong...It is the white man's fault. I will elect council members consistantly, that will bring drugs onto the rez to sell to our people, and if they are caught, i will automatically refer to rule number one...It is the white man's fault. I will never enlist in the white man's military, because it is their responsibility to keep "our" land protected and also to keep "us" free and fed and able to complain that more is never enough. I promise that i will never do anything to help another race other than "US NATIVES" and promise to be a drain on "THEIR" economy. I promise to personally inflict as much hatred on as many non-natives as i can as often as i can. Because this is how "WE" display our "NATIVE PRIDE"!!! "


25
wrote on Dec 21, 2007 11:06 AM:

" Sounds good to me... Cut the checks off "


jc
wrote on Dec 21, 2007 10:51 AM:

" Oh my goodness, another yellow thunder!!!! Could it be that without the input of tax dollars (live there tax free????) Mr. Means is going to foot the bill for his NEW NATION. If they are an independant nation, that means the US doesn't need to give them any more $ ? How would that work???? Yippee! we can send more $$$$ to Iraq. To all of us that know this is just smoke, it is a big joke. Most white people respect the indian nations and are saddened by the irresponsible way the people in charge have handled things. "


To: James; Re: moving in on LNI...
wrote on Dec 21, 2007 10:45 AM:

" You shouldn't pick on CHILDREN. All of the Children on the world are precious. "


To The Patriotic Native Pride
wrote on Dec 21, 2007 10:44 AM:

" I have read all the replys from the Native Rez people, and I have yet to see anything that resembles American Patriotism. Please share with us Natives and Non-Natives some TRUE stories of your family members who have served and died in WWI, WWII, Korean, Vietnam, and Iraqi Wars, to preserve and protect the Freedom of your family as well as mine. These are people that you and I should be proud of and never forget, that they gave their lives for our Freedom. Lets hear some of these stories and share with the readers both Native and Non-Natives the storie's of their heorism, in keeping "OUR" Country "FREE"!!! "


Ronnie Dobbs
wrote on Dec 21, 2007 10:33 AM:

" Here's what I think should happen. Since I happen to love my Lakota brothers and sisters (I even went to school with many of them, first in Mission and then at BHSU), I call on the US government to pay the treaty in full. However instead of paying the tab by throwing cash at the problem, how about a Nancy Pelosi-led congress take some of the earmarked money for fruit-fly research and other frivolous and idiotic earmarks (ice-skating rinks and bike paths in Minnesota) and reallocate the money back to the Lakota by investing in infrastructure on and around the Pine Ridge reservation to allow for new jobs and a better economy. I'm not talking about building new casinos here. I'm talking about building economically sound businesses, such as supermarkets, construction businesses, etc. This would encourage self-determination and autonomy in a way far greater than just writing a check for corrupt people like Garnier to squander away from real Lakota constituents. But be forewarned, this would bring the US even-steven with the Lakota, and if y'all muck this up, well you are on your own and would wind up getting bought out just like before. Sound fair to you? It does to me. W, git er done!!! "


MTponyboy
wrote on Dec 21, 2007 10:32 AM:

" HELLO!!! I live and work in Montana on the Ft. Peck Reservation. Indian culture is beautiful and so are the people. BUT! Stop crying foul!(THE ACTIVIST) Did you ever notice Asian Americans and Mexican Americans come here and maintain there culture and families. They work hard and maintain everything Indians say are taken from them. Some Native Americans need to get off there soap box and use there free health care, free education, save taxes they do not have to pay, save the monthly checks they receice (THANK YOU AMERICA!)and live there dreams. Every Native American I have seen become successful, has been a hard working individual with the desire to maintain their culture and become educated to provide for their family. I can tell you most Native American agree with my ideas, after all I got them from these great Americans. STOP COMPLAINING. "

BTW Shouldn't the Lakota take this issue up with France?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Purchase

Well I see this word thrown around quite a bit, "sovereign" but I don't think it means what George W. Bush thinks it means.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W28CQQsH9S8

January 3, 2008
Notice to Those Occupying Lakotah Lands
This Property is Condemned

By RUSSELL MEANS

TO: The United States of America; The States of: Montana, Wyoming, North Dakota, South Dakota and Nebraska; The County and Municipal Governments Operating within the Republic of Lakotah; and All Private Owners of Real Estate within the Republic of Lakotah

Lakotah, through its government, have appointed representatives to withdraw from all the treaties with the United States of America.

Lakotah, through such representatives, have formally withdrawn from all agreements and treaties with the United States of America. The reinstitution of our freedom and independence is found in law.

Lakotah has reclaimed sovereignty as a nation and over its traditional lands.

Despite many years of repeated bad faith on the part of the United States government towards the Lakotah People, the Lakotah hold no animosity toward the American people, most of whom have had no part in the actions of their government. We wish to deal with the American people in good faith and in a win-win manner.

While we have the right to impose liens on all of the real estate in our country, we prefer to come to resolutions with you all with out resorting to such measures. Accordingly, at this time, we are only declaring liens on real estate held by governments foreign to the Republic of Lakotah, but not on real estate held by private parties.

The Declaration of Independence, the Constitution of the United States of America and the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties substantiate this freedom.

Lakotah welcomes the opportunity to meet and discuss this matter. We are in the process of scheduling meetings and will issue public invitations. Should you desire input with regard to scheduling these meetings, please contact us at the above.

Russell Means is Chief Facilitator of the Provisional Government of the Republic of Lakotah.

For more information, please visit our new website at http://www.lakotafreedom.com/.

Lakota
444 Crazy Horse Drive, P.O. Box 99;
Porcupine, SD 57772


http://counterpunch.org/means01032008.html

So I'm guessing they're gonna send a bill to the US govt for back taxes on the Badlands and Devils tower? In addition to a bunch of other holdings. Hmm... that should be muy interesante.

I wonder what address you send those types of bills to?

Darn shame their land doesn't hit the Yellowstone club. That would make a fun fight!

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Originally Posted by Cliff Huckable

Totally awesome.

Can't wait to see how this plays out...

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Just out of curiosity, have you ever considered that, as a white male, every other race, ethnicity, etc has made you feel iniquitous? Does it ever cross your mind that if you did that in return, you'd be called a vile racist? Have you ever considered that you've been living in a thick fog of a guilt trip for not only being a white male, but also an American?

I was just wondering, because I'm really tired of the pathetic self-abhorrence, detestation, and disgust simpletons like yourself buy into and not only accept but postulate.

Yes, we took land from people. The means we used to acquire it were very immoral and wrong. It's happened throughout time. It will happen again, it's human nature......only this time it will be easy because unenlightened clods like you will give it away. :nonono2:

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

Just out of curiosity, have you ever considered that, as a white male, every other race, ethnicity, etc has made you feel iniquitous? Does it ever cross your mind that if you did that in return, you'd be called a vile racist? Have you ever considered that you've been living in a thick fog of a guilt trip for not only being a white male, but also an American?

I was just wondering, because I'm really tired of the pathetic self-abhorrence, detestation, and disgust simpletons like yourself buy into and not only accept but postulate.

Yes, we took land from people. The means we used to acquire it were very immoral and wrong. It's happened throughout time. It will happen again, it's human nature......only this time it will be easy because unenlightened clods like you will give it away. :nonono2:

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some here have an amazingly reliable ability to embody the essence of dumbass white boy america that makes so many despise the u.s. with thoreau and johnny cash references to boot.

it's perfect. hilarious.

http://www.crazyengineer.net/uploads...se/dumbass.jpg

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Originally Posted by spook

some here have an amazingly reliable ability to embody the essence of dumbass white boy america that makes so many despise the u.s. with thoreau and johnny cash references to boot.

it's perfect. hilarious.

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Spook, what's hilarious is that you spend so much time on TGR, and I've never seen even ONE ski related post come from you.

Funny how you claim that you don't care what people here think of you, but you're so concerned of what the rest of the world thinks of you......

Not only is it ironic, but it goes to show you're a hypocritical blow hard.

Practice what you preach, and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

Spook, what's hilarious is that you spend so much time on TGR, and I've never seen even ONE ski related post come from you.

Funny how you claim that you don't care what people here think of you, but you're so concerned of what the rest of the world thinks of you......

Not only is it ironic, but it goes to show you're a hypocritical blow hard.

Practice what you preach, and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

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your strengths don't lie in detail or reason.

i've posted more than a few times about snow and i'm certain my stupid bullshit ratio is much lower than yours.

i don't care what people like you think about me. i do care about what some people think about me to one degree or another and i've never suggested otherwise. i've also embraced my innate hypocrisy many times. i've met few people who aren't hypocrites. you seem to confuse the validity of ideas with your perception of the source of the idea.

as far as the rest of the world is concerned, i don't have to be "concerned" about what they think of "me"--by which i'm sure you mean my government and society--to acknowledge the reasons they might have an opinion. there's nothing ironic about it.

you, on the other hand, resort to pathetic, comical and typical notions of victimhood of the white male and effortlessly dismiss any outrage of others who have been victimized ad infinitum by them.

comical (and yes, ironic) not in the least because you are such an angry person who undoubtedly holds a grudge over the slightest perceived injustice to you and yours.

imagine if you really had something to be angry about. i wonder what action you would find acceptable to resort to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

Just out of curiosity, have you ever considered that, as a white male, every other race, ethnicity, etc has made you feel iniquitous? Does it ever cross your mind that if you did that in return, you'd be called a vile racist? Have you ever considered that you've been living in a thick fog of a guilt trip for not only being a white male, but also an American?

I was just wondering, because I'm really tired of the pathetic self-abhorrence, detestation, and disgust simpletons like yourself buy into and not only accept but postulate.

Yes, we took land from people. The means we used to acquire it were very immoral and wrong. It's happened throughout time. It will happen again, it's human nature......only this time it will be easy because unenlightened clods like you will give it away. :nonono2:

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Do you truly believe that because an action has been repeated throughout history it becomes acceptable. Torture?, Imperial subjugation? Suicide bombings?....

Societies evolve. Cultures discard the gabage over time and slowly work towards finding the right mix of postive behaviors.
Otherwise we are still just cavemen with cars, aircraft carriers and antibiotics.

Whats the difference in your mind between awareness and empathy versus guilt? Its easy coming from a power position(white man in Western civilization) to just discount past and present inequities by saying "thats just the way it is and get over it".

Not trying to suppress anybody's speech by any means. People just need to realize the current actions and reactions are based on a past events. Continue to ignore the past and you end up in the world we live in today.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spook

i've posted more than a few times about snow and i'm certain my stupid bullshit ratio is much lower than yours.

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You've posted about snow? Wowee!!!

nine hundred some posts about nothing?

Spook, you're ALL bullshit.

Why don't you go skiing, and contribute something SKI related? You are in fact on a SKIING website.

Actions speak louder than words. At this point, I just consider you as a joke.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tourette Dude

Do you truly believe that because an action has been repeated throughout history it becomes acceptable. Torture?, Imperial subjugation? Suicide bombings?....

Societies evolve. Cultures discard the gabage over time and slowly work towards finding the right mix of postive behaviors.
Otherwise we are still just cavemen with cars, aircraft carriers and antibiotics.

Whats the difference in your mind between awareness and empathy versus guilt? Its easy coming from a power position(white man in Western civilization) to just discount past and present inequities by saying "thats just the way it is and get over it".

Not trying to suppress anybody's speech by any means. People just need to realize the current actions and reactions are based on a past events. Continue to ignore the past and you end up in the world we live in today.

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Why are you going into a civil rights tirade?
Did I advocate torture, etc? NO.
Why is it that you jump straight to those conclusions? Your logic is flawed.
We're not giving this country that I'm sure you would agree was "stolen" from the native Americans back to them, so it's a mute point. All the indians on the reservations having a grudge towards the white men need to get over it. Like I said, it's history.

Do you think Israel should succumb to the demands of the Palestinians and just hand all of that land back? :rolleyes2

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Originally Posted by spook

i've posted more than a few times about snow and i'm certain my stupid bullshit ratio is much lower than yours.

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You're certain, huh? Really? Like, for real???

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i don't care what people like you think about me.

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Are you "certain" about this as well? Or at least - do you actually feel that you've convinced yourself that you don't care?

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

Why are you going into a civil rights tirade?
Did I advocate torture, etc? NO.
Why is it that you jump straight to those conclusions? Your logic is flawed.
We're not giving this country that I'm sure you would agree was "stolen" from the native Americans back to them, so it's a mute point. All the indians on the reservations having a grudge towards the white men need to get over it. Like I said, it's history.

Do you think Israel should succumb to the demands of the Palestinians and just hand all of that land back? :rolleyes2

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No tirade at all.You brought up the race issue. I am avoiding name calling etc because this topic is important and it would be cool to keep it relatively low key and maybe get something positive out of it.

No you didn't advocate torture but you implied that base human behaviors are destined to be repeated and that somehow justifies them. Torture is just one of many.

No, Isreal should give back the settlements in the Palestinians territories and the Palestinians need to realize that Isreal is a country that is not going away.

The native land issue/treaties should be dealt with on an equal and ongoing basis as opposed to the government dominating and/or ignoring native issues. Just as in the case of Isreal/Palestinian issues.

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Originally Posted by Jer

You're certain, huh? Really? Like, for real???



Are you "certain" about this as well? Or at least - do you actually feel that you've convinced yourself that you don't care?

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JER!!!! where you been buddy? i've missed the slavish attention from you and iceman.

yes, i'm certain on both counts. for real. you didn't really expect me to say that i cry when nobody's looking after i hear a harsh word, did you?

and yes, blurred, i've posted several times about snow. i should have been more literal for you. that includes various means of sliding, avalanches, resort policies, weather, etc. i wouldn't be here if i didn't board.

in the meantime, i'll take my 900 posts of pure bullshit in one year over your 9000 posts of highly concentrated bullshit in three years (i'm being generous and not counting your "blog").

in honor the new jer:

http://donaldb.files.wordpress.com/2.../happyface.gif

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Originally Posted by spook

in the meantime, i'll take my 900 posts of pure bullshit in one year over your 9000 posts of highly concentrated bullshit in three years (i'm being generous and not counting your "blog").

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I've skied and partied with HUNDREDS of maggots. HUNDREDS. That kind of makes a difference.

What have you done for the maggots spook? Have you ever even skied with any? Where are all of these TRs you've posted? Or are you just talking about your 3 posts that actually have to do with snow? Wow, you ARE such a contributor. Like I said, you're a joke.

http://spook.justgotowned.com/

spook remains the only person here who is on my ignore list

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Originally Posted by Summit

http://spook.justgotowned.com/

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That is seriously funny. Not because it's directed at Spook - it stands on it's own.

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

I've skied and partied with HUNDREDS of maggots. HUNDREDS. That kind of makes a difference.

What have you done for the maggots spook? Have you ever even skied with any? Where are all of these TRs you've posted? Or are you just talking about your 3 posts that actually have to do with snow? Wow, you ARE such a contributor. Like I said, you're a joke.

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i can see that this "maggot" reality is very important to you, blurred. unfortunately, i think it's stupid and melodramatic bullshit so i am not concerned about "contributing" to "maggots". i was merely pointing out your error. but i guess that makes my occasional honest thought sort of an incidental nsr donation. i'm sure there are some nice folks in the vicinity.

i also hate to stop when i'm sliding or bother with a camera and i generally board alone because i crave the meditative aspect of it. i know these are terrible and selfish qualities but, as a result, i seriously doubt i will ever post a trip report. however, i salute those so inclined and will continue to reap the reward.

and i think it's great that partying and skiing with so many of your brethren leaves them enthralled with a steady flow of your ideas. are you sort of the maggot king? i should have recognized the hierarchy amidst the chaos, but i'm slow that way.

Withdrawal from US treaties enjoys little support from tribal leaders
© Indian Country Today January 04, 2008. All Rights Reserved
Posted: January 04, 2008
by: Gale Courey Toensing / Indian Country Today
Legitimacy of 'Republic of Lakotah' questioned

ROSEBUD, S.D. - Tribal leaders in the northern Great Plains said that actor and activist Russell Means has accurately portrayed the federal government's broken promises to America's indigenous peoples. But when Means and a group of fellow activists recently announced a Lakota withdrawal from all treaties with the U.S. government, they were not representing the Lakota and other Sioux tribes of the area, the leaders said.

Means and a delegation calling themselves the Lakota Freedom Delegation convened a press conference Dec. 19 at the Plymouth Congregational Church in Washington, D.C., where the withdrawal was declared. A seven-page document titled ''Lakotah Unilateral Withdrawal from All Agreements and Treaties with the United States of America'' was presented to the U.S. State Department, according to the group's Web site at www.republicoflakotah.com.

Rodney Bordeaux, president of the Rosebud Sioux Tribe, said Russell's group was not authorized to speak on the tribe's behalf: ''They're individuals acting on their own. They did not come to the Rosebud Sioux tribal council or our government in any way to get our support and we do not support what they've done.''

The Rosebud Sioux have around 25,000 enrolled members with between 15,000 and 20,000 people living on or near its 900,000 acres of trust land, Bordeaux said. The tribe's reservation once comprised of 3.2 million acres, but the land was expropriated through the Homestead Act, the Allotment Act and other ''legal'' mechanisms that successfully robbed indigenous peoples of their lands. The Sioux tribes are spread over South Dakota, North Dakota, Minnesota, and parts of Nebraska and Wyoming.

''That's all our treaty lands,'' Bordeaux said. ''Russell made some good points. All of the treaties have not been lived up to by the federal government, but the treaties are the basis for our relationship with the federal government and also the basis for the trust relationship to our lands. We're trying to recover the lands that were wrongfully taken from us, so we are going by the treaties. We need to uphold them.

''We do not support what Means and his group are doing and they don't have any support from any tribal government I know of. They don't speak for us.''

In a phone interview with Indian Country Today, Means made clear his thoughts on the tribal leaders of the Sioux nations.

''I maintained from the get-go I do not represent, nor do the free-thinking, free-seeking Lakota want to have anything to do with, the 'hang around the fort' Indians, those collaborators with the government who perpetuate our poverty, misery and our sickness - in other words, our genocide. They are part and parcel of that genocide. I couldn't care less what the bought-and-paid-for, 'hang around the fort' Indians represent or what they say. End of conversation,'' Means said.

He further noted that his group has liberated the land and established the ''Republic of Lakotah,'' which he said has been done legally according to Article 6 of the U.S. Constitution, the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties and the U.N. Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. The republic is currently governed by a ''provisional government.''

The provisional government plan is negotiating with ''foreign investors'' to develop the energy resources on the land.

''There's enough wind coming from North and South Dakota to power electricity in every city in the U.S. forever; so, consequently, we are now in negotiations with investors who are going to want to immediately put up windmills and solar because the sun shines on the Lakota in the northern Plains over 300 days of the year,'' Means said.

He declined to name the potential investors until the deal is completed, but said the group has land that it will utilize.

He said the Republic of Lakotah would have a gold-based economy, that it had already established a bank and would use the ''economic weapon or tool'' of property liens to force the federal government to come to the negotiating table.

But what does the republic want to negotiate?

''We want them to have hands off, to realize that our relationship is diplomatic,'' Means said.

Means said the republic tried to files liens against property the South Dakota state government had seized for nonpayment of taxes, but the county in which the attempt was made refused to accept them because it didn't know what a sovereign nation was.

Asked how the republic's government had formed, Means said, ''Actually, that's none of your business. I went around and we, the people who are leading this, we got critical mass - enough freedom-seeking Lakotas - to make it worthwhile for us to seek our freedom.''

The group's attempt to withdraw from the treaties on behalf of the Lakota people ''doesn't mean anything,'' said BIA spokesman Gary Garrison.

''These are not legitimate tribal governments elected by the people. These are just groups who don't have a government-to-government relationship with the federal government,'' he said, adding that ''the group's claim to be acting according to the law is their interpretation.''

''It's not like we haven't had individual groups that have declared independence from the federal government all the way from Montana to Texas; and as long as they want to go out and sit on a hill and play paramilitary and be independent, that's fine. That's every American's right.

''But the bottom line is when they begin the process of violating other people's rights, breaking the law, they're going to end up like all the other groups that have declared themselves independent - usually getting arrested and being put in jail,'' Garrison said.

Means and his group are not saying anything new, said Joseph Brings Plenty, chairman of the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe.

''What has been said by these individuals has been talked about from dinner table to dinner table since I was a young kid; but the thing is, these individuals are not representative of the nation I represent. I may agree, I may disagree, but they have not gone out and received the blessing of the people they say they are speaking for,'' Brings Plenty said.

But, he added, the ''facts are the facts. Unless a person lived here, you couldn't see the day-to-day, the way we live and how our lifestyle has been lowered. ... The document they took [to Washington] referred to what the U.S. government has failed to do in the treaties. Our funds have been cut and it's been crisis management from year to year. There's always a justification as to why the funds and obligations of the treaties aren't being met. There's no justification from our tribes' point of view. Maybe not enough people understand what happened to our relatives,'' referring to David Stannard's 1992 book, ''American Holocaust.''

Perhaps the group's actions have value in raising awareness of the real history?

''That's what it is. I think raising awareness is a big part of what's happened with the tribes: past, present and what sort of future we're looking at,'' Brings Plenty said.

http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096416411

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Originally Posted by spook

i can see that this "maggot" reality is very important to you, blurred. unfortunately, i think it's stupid and melodramatic bullshit so i am not concerned about "contributing" to "maggots".

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THEN GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE!

Maggots FKN rule.

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Originally Posted by AsheanMT

THEN GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE!

Maggots FKN rule.

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did i miss the oath? aren't you the nimrod who put his newborn two feet from a lit campstove with pot of stuff cooking on it so you could take a picture? is that a ringing endorsement for "maggots"?

you are sweet, sweet affirmation.

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Originally Posted by spook

i also hate to stop when i'm sliding or bother with a camera and i generally board alone because i crave the meditative aspect of it. i know these are terrible and selfish qualities but, as a result, i seriously doubt i will ever post a trip report. however, i salute those so inclined and will continue to reap the reward.

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i pretty much share the same philosophy in regards to skiing and photos. However, you're still easily the most pathologically narcissistic guy ever to post on TGR. The consistent use of lower case "i" is classic, as are the repetitive explainations of your words/actions/philosophy to people who you alledgedly don't care about. Full of yourself as you may be, you're also a funny and entertaining guy (mostly because of how full of yourself you are). i can't understand why anyone would put you on "ignore".

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

Just out of curiosity, have you ever considered that, as a white male, every other race, ethnicity, etc has made you feel iniquitous? Does it ever cross your mind that if you did that in return, you'd be called a vile racist? Have you ever considered that you've been living in a thick fog of a guilt trip for not only being a white male, but also an American? blah blah blah
:

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What the fuck are you talking about? Last I checked, you are a white American male. Not 100% if you are an American citizen, but you do spend a great deal of time in the states. Where do you even get off throwing that shit at him? You come off like an ass. Nothing personal, I'm sure you are a nice guy, but seriously WTF?

It seemed to me all he was saying was more power to them. Put down the thesaurus, stick with skis...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spook

did i miss the oath? aren't you the nimrod who put his newborn two feet from a lit campstove with pot of stuff cooking on it so you could take a picture? is that a ringing endorsement for "maggots"?

you are sweet, sweet affirmation.

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And you are just soooooo fucking kewl to constantly come to a place and post when you don't even give a shit about the "community" of "maggots".

I'm fine with whatever stupid ass shit I do and I don't give a shit about your bullshit pointless affirmations. I enjoy this community for many reasons that you would most likely consider to be "beneath you". I've been hooked up by mags I've never met in person and I've partied and ski'd with others as well as had them as guests in my home.

Whatever.

Back to ignore for you.

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Originally Posted by pointedem

Where do you even get off throwing that shit at him?

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Any half decent psychoanalyst would say pretty much the same thing. Like all narcissists, self-loathing is at the very core of spook's pathology. Just look at the threads he starts.

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Originally Posted by mr_gyptian

in other news, Jack Daniels, Old Crow, Jim Beam, Black Velvet, and Macormacks have cut back production based upon fears that they will not be able to import whiskey into the new Lakota lands.:rolleyes2

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

Is that really necessary? I mean doesn't it get just a little bit old?

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Not trying to stir the pot here but I've hung out with people who have family on the Pine Ridge reservation and some that actually lived there. Alcohol has really torn apart some of the reservations -- Pine Ridge for sure. I'm fairly sure there are laws in Northern Nebraska that make it illegal to sell alcohol to residents of Pine Ridge -- although they are seldom enforced.

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Originally Posted by spook

i wouldn't be here if i didn't board.

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Well it sure is obvious you're not a skier.