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I'm planning on using one power wrap liner for both my Atomic T11's and my Garmont Adrenaline's. Alison at Intuition said this would work fine, but, to fit the liner into the lower volume boot.
Which one is the lower volume boot?
It seems like sometimes we're talking volume in reference to boots, sometimes in reference to liners, and sometimes in reference to feet.
Can anyone clarify?
TIA
Also, I thought I'd throw this out there.
I have a 26.0 shell size and Alison at Intuition is putting me in a 27.0 liner with the thought that there is more foam volume to fill out the nooks and crannies of the boot. She says this is standard if you fit at Intuition, and it won't effect the final fit. They will put the biggest possible liner in a shell.
I guess it makes sense, but, it seems a bit strange to me. Any experiences?
Also, she thought that it worked better to do this if you were going to use the tube heaters over an oven.
WWMD? 26.0 or 27.0 liners?
I was fit at Intuition last week and they threw a 26 liner in my 25 Solly Impacts. Worked great and I have a snug 1cm shell fit.... I'd get the 27 liners unless you have a super tight race fit....
Just FYI, EVO in seattle cooked mine for $15, I thought that was a hell of a deal.
question
I'm going to heat these suckers up with a hair dryer.
Anyway, I use ALINE footbeds, so would these be okay to put in after? They are a plastic polymer type material.
Also, to stretch the boot out, im going to use bungee cords and attach it to the wall or something. Will that be fine?
bump, and a question:
Do intuitions "swell" when heated? My AT shells are a little big (2 finger+ behind the heel, but really big mid-foot) and I was hoping that the intuitions would make them fit better, but with uncooked intuitions in my shells I am absolutely swimming
hafta say this is one of the most helpful threads I've ever read
khakis- try getting the next size up liner. The liners do swell when heated a little, but they generally work through compression. I put an 11 power wrap in my size 28 alpine shells to take up some volume.
I actually pre-released in mine while molding. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by flyby
Great tutorial!
Anyone got a link to an online (US/Can) store where I can order some please? Do the factory sell direct?
TIA
Search and ye shall find, JONG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdemon2
Ooooh! Why didn't I think of that???!Quote:
Originally Posted by seldon
EDIT: OK, you meant on here. Fair one. :)
I gotta say, everything that I have read and heard about Intuition encouraged me buy a pair of their liners for my Technica Icon Alu boots. They arrived in the mail and I was a little worried that they were going to be too small (my toes were cramped and the liner didn't overlap when I put my foot in them, mind you this was before I put them in my oven). I was also worried since the Intuition Alpine liner was a size 10.0 and my old Technica liner was a 10.5. A little background - my boot shell is a size 27.5/9.5/321mm and I use a custom foot bed (size 10).
Well, all of these worries came to an end after I heated the liners, followed ALL of Yoopers advice from this thread, and endured the 10 minutes of heat and PAIN with my foot feeling like it was in a sardine can. I can honestly say that these liners makes even the most uncomfortable boot feel like your totally Dr. Sholl's GELLIN' (yea, I really went there....)
So, if you are still questioning whether or not to get a pair of these liners after reading this post, then question your sanity and go find a DE .50 caliber and do yourself the favor. They will make your days on the slope 100% better (as will thrashing a hill of moguls down the lift line:D).
BO-D
Great thread and great information. I'm still trying to get my boot/liners to work for me.
I had my intuitions molded by a reputable bootfitter in WP.
- Confirm shell fit of boot
- Heat liners in convection oven
- Heat boot shells seperately on blower type heater
- Prep foot: Foot on custom footbed. Toe cap over footbed and foot. Foot in thin plastic bag. NO SOCK
- Take liner out of oven, take boot off heater.
- Put foot/footbed/toecap/bag combo into liner.
- Put another plastic bag over liner
- Slide combo in to boot pried apart by hand
- Pull up hard on back of liner to form heal pocket, repeat, repeat.
- Make sure liner is properly wrapped with tounge of shell
- Buckle medium
- Flex to push heal farther into heal pocket.
- Stand on incline ramp
- wait, wait, wait.
- repeat with other foot
After my first day of skiing, control was great, but my feet started to *really* hurt. Like unwearable after a few hours. I think I was being pinched width wise across the widest part of my foot, and my big toe was being pushed back (too short).
Some thoughts:
- Barefoot maybe didn't give me enough extra room?
- Wonder if I should skip the footbed for next try?
Also, Intuition told me that they now recommend heating the liner *in* the shell with a tube-type heater. They no longer recommend the shell-out/convection-oven method. i got the impression that this was to resolve the wrinkle problem.
I'm wondering if I could try and do the same thing in my ome convection item? Especially now that the liners are kinda sorta fit to the boots and my foot. Here's my thought:
- Heat the whole shebang in a home convection oven, 240 degrees for about 15 minutes. Surely the shells can handle this heat? Footbeds?
- Put toecap on foot, sock on foot (thicker this time), foot in plastic bag.
- Remove boots, slide into boots, pull heal, buckle, raise toe, wait.
Any thoughts or ideas? it would be appreciated!
Don't put your frickin shells in the oven.
Do it over again following my directions. If you don't have a boot spreader device of some sort, get at least two people to help hold the shell open. That is absolutely the key to avoiding wrinkles. Make sure you are fully satisfied that you like the way the liner is in there before you release the shell to close.
Definitely use socks this time. They don't even have to be overly thin socks.
Don't use plastic bags... What the hell would you need that for?
:D almost spit my coffee on the computerQuote:
Originally Posted by yooper
this, and the scarpa youtube movie made me think, why not just use a industry type hot air blower?
esp. when molding them newer tongue style liners, i am getting.
should work the same as the scarpa blower.
and the liners can stay in the shell, makes everything easier.
any ideas?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyeStick
worked money thanks for the help. mine were also the new liners with the tounge not power wrap type and this worked great
Quote:
Originally Posted by salx
I thought about doing this with a salomon boot heater too. I don't know if it gets it hot enough though. Ideas?
thanks Yooper
you saved me a lot of fuckin around. your tutorial is fineaskind. I used aluminum gutter hangers cut and bent for the spreader clips they were wide and long enough to go over both the flaps in my nordica s/m 14 tore a rivet out using shorter hook. after heating the liner in the oven for 10 min. at 250F I used an old pressure stocking over hot liner helped with sliding in and made it easyer to keep the seems lind up.
I should have used a wider board.
if anyone wants the other binder let me know it's yours if you pay shipping.
i was just getting ready to mold some zipfits. in that process you steam the shell to get the shell to fit the liner as well as the liner to fit the foot.
that makes the shell very flexible for several minutes.
would that help with the intuitions instead of the boot stretcher?
Generally not hot enough, and really doesn't put the heat in the right place. One of the convection ovens, or the Intuition stack heater should be used. The stack heater works great if you only need to mold a bit, as it won't do much to change the exterior of the liner. With a convection oven, the liner will mold to the shell shape as well (This is why I like the stack for tele boots, with the oven the Intuition foam fills into the baffles... Great).Quote:
Originally Posted by ut_hucker
I heated mine last week in the oven. They really do swell. Mine are really tight at the top of the liner around my calf. Will that loosen up?
how close in the molding process are these to the thermex (sp) liners from my kneisel flexons ? when i molded them i just put them in the oven for a little too long actually and they started to deform a little, i was able to shove the insole in there, get them into the boot and they still came out fine.
are the ID liners significantly different in the molding process ?
I redid my flexon liners yesterday night and this morning. thought i would update the thread with some advice.
240 F at 10 minutes is perfect. put the liner(s) in a pan lined with tinfoil and make sure they are not too close to the heating element.
you will not want to do both of your liners at the same time.
check for creases, especially in the heel area. just undo the buckles and stick your hand in there to feel around, if you have a crease you will know and you do not want it there. usually it will be right above the heel.
concentrate on molding the heel pocket. the first five minutes after the liner gets out of the oven are the most important, so concentrate on putting pressure on your heel.
wear thick socks and a toe cap. you will want all the extra room you can get.
molding liners does not make up for a proper bootfitting.
anyways, super easy process if you read through the thread and follow the given advice!
I disagree about using thick socks - not if you want a performance fit. As long as you allow the liner to fully cool before you pull your foot it should be fine. I actually use a compression stocking to achieve as tight a fit as possible, but that's not necessary for most people.
Here's my cheat sheet for doing Thermoflex/Intuition type liners:
1. Pre-heat oven to 275 F for at least 10 minutes
2. Lower oven temp to 240 F
3. Place a single liner in the oven on aluminum foil on the middle rack
4. Set timer for 10 minutes
5. Place 2x4 (or something at least 2" thick to stand on) on floor
6. Prep boot shell (move buckles to loosest positions)
7. Place toe cap on foot and cover with tight compression stocking (without footbed)
8. When timer goes off remove liner from the oven and note time on clock
9. Place the footbed in the bottom of the liner and ensure it is lined up properly within the liner (centered, ankle placement)
10. Put foot into liner, stand on bare floor while setting liner wrap (inside goes inside)
11. Put foot and liner into boot shell - hold wrap together in front while inserting
12. Pull up gently on the back of liner to remove any wrinkles and set ankle position
13. Double-check wrap (inside/outside flaps at same height) and place tongue into position (for Flexons)
14. Lightly close buckles in this order - middle, bottom, top
15. Set powerstrap and cinch lightly
16. Step onto 2x4 with toes only and drive heel back and down - hold in place, don't move!
17. Do not bang heel into pocket (creates loose heel pocket)
18. Continue pressing/pushing heel back and down while using small amount of forward flex
19. Do not flex hard in the boot yet
20. After 10 minutes of cooling begin flexing forward a bit while keeping heel down hard in the pocket
After 5 more minutes (15 mins. total since removing from oven) the liner may be removed from
the shell to completely cool (but feel the shell and make sure it's not warm to the touch before removing liner).
Do not slip foot out of liner while it's still in the shell. Remove the liner and foot
together, then slip foot out of liner being careful not to compress any areas of the liner.
Allow the liner to completely cool outside of the shell. Then put everything back together, put on a normal ski sock,
and test the fit.
Repeat for second boot.
Note that I don't recommend putting the footbed on your foot directly as shown in the tutorial as it can be prone to some problems - poor alignment of the liner (seams in the wrong places), footbed shifts on the bottom of the foot during insertion. If your footbed is stiff enough then I recommend putting it in the liner first and making sure everything is lined up right.
Don't pull up too much on the back of the liner when setting the heel pocket. This part is critical to getting rid of any wrinkles that may have formed, but pulling too hard can create a loose heel pocket (depends on how many times the liners have been baked).
I like to set my heel pocket by pushing against a wall on a carpeted floor. My boots don't slip backward and I'm able to push downward and backward with good even pressure to create a great heel pocket. I can't stress enough to NOT bang your heels back in the pocket like you might do when putting on boots.
Okay, I'm a genius, as I'll be the first to admit...but you've got me beat! Seriously, that's a wonderfully thought out and written tutorial. I've got my right Dalbello Krypton Pro I.D. on right now, making me sweat like a banshee...but the left one is already more comfortable than it ever was before. That was SO easy, I couldn't believe it. Thanks, man!
Bump because of that group buy...
great thread.
I'm going to put my feet in the oven tonite!
Just molded my scarpas. Fit seems spot on, but the true test will be on the hill. Great thread. I pieced together all the information to make it work best for me and my supplies.
That sounds great but I have one question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild4umlauts
As much deforming, squeezing and pushing as it takes to get the liners in the shells by themselves, I can't imagine trying to get them in with my foot already inside.
Is it really as easy as you make it sound?
Roxtar - that really depends on your shells. I have only ever used 3-piece shells (Flexon, Krypton) so that part isn't very difficult. If you're stuck dealing with a 2-piece overlap shell then you'll probably want some help from a bro/brah/bud and/or warming the shells.
I take no responsibility for your shell health, but warming a shell (200 F for about 5-10 minutes) can make a huge difference in getting everything together. Not only will warming the shell make getting in easier, but it will also buy you more time to get everything together and still get a great mold.
Another "old school" trick is to use an thin nylon sock (I stole a pair from my wife) that stretches enough to go around the liner after it's heated. You put your foot into the liner and then put the whole thing into the thin sock to help keep everything together around your foot before insertion. I've found that this method isn't really necessary for me at this point, but some people swear by it (many shops still do it this way).
Thanks
On another note, has anyone here tried Intuition's new bag-o-rice method?
Search around a bit.....general consensus is that it doesn't work quite as well. The oven method works well IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxtar
A few things I've picked on after doing several pairs.
--Toe Cap: I use small cut up pieces of sock and stuff them in between my toes to spread them out a bit, and put a decently thick toe cap on there to boot. I like room in the toes
--I use a very thin sock that goes over the toe cap AND MY FOOTBED. Some people disagree with this, but it works for me.
People seem to be struggling with spreading the shell. I burrow a couple of friends for an hour and feed them beer. I also use a luke warm hair dryer to heat up the shell so it's a bit more plyable. I put a strip of duct tape down the back inside of the boot too, this smooths out the back of the shell so it's less likely to get hung up on anything as you slide your foot in.
Pull up the liner at the end (not too much!) to get any wrinkles out of the heel. I also run my fingers down the seems of the liners to check for creases.
Lastly, I crank the buckles to somewhere in the middle, but reasonable tight. I guess I don't know why, but I do and it molds well.
Oh, one more thing....
If you do get a crease, which typically happens right on the top of the foot, I've seen people use a little localized heat on that area and get rid of it. Probably not recommended, but it's better than re-doing the whole thing.
Yea, I searched and found a thread about that.
Thanks, though.
One other thing; Intuition really seems to feel that footbeds are unnecessary with these.
I'm using a snug shell fit and am concerned with interior space.
Obviously, not using footbeds would help that significantly.
Has anyone here tried using Intuitions sans footbeds?
I run my intuition plus sans footbeds, to great sucess.
Better than bag o rice or oven is to use an adjustable heat gun set at 112 from the hardware store.
Frankly, I've had no problems with wrinkles just putting the liner in and making sure it was seated well before sticking my foot in. The folks at intuition do it that way, and it seems to work just fine.
On the footbed thing - it's been discussed a lot, but I guess if you don't have any major problems with your feet and have a fairly tight shell fit then going sans footbed should work out. For me since I pronate, my ankles "crash" into the inside (medial) side of the shells unless I have a footbed that corrects for this.
For toe caps I picked up some cheap thick neoprene scuba booties that work great. I just chopped off the toe section so that only my toes are covered (doesn't go anywhere near the ball of my foot). I've found that the '"official" toe caps most shops use in fitting cover more of your foot than necessary. You just want toe wiggle room for warmth and comfort. If it starts getting past that then you may lose some degree of control if your forefoot is looser.
I have my Intuitions and Garmont Mega Rides ready to go. I am still figuring out how to pry them open, but it does not seem to make much of a difference.
I was size for a 8 liner in a 26.5 boot. Seems pretty snug and similiar in size to my current liner, just thicker.
Here is my question:
How will I get these things into the shell when hot???
I have slid them in cool, with the shell as pried as it can get, and it barely slids in there. In fact, when I do slip it in and during the process a dimple forms in the heel. This pops back out almost instantly, but I am afraid that when it is warm, this will crinkle. Is that the case?
Has anyone molded for the Mega Ride before at home? If so, what was your method for avoiding this.
Also - I am wondering about the foot bed thing. I currently have a cheapo Surefoot in these boots. I find I need that arch suppport for touring, otherwise my foot hurts. Will the liner absolve the need for a Surefoot? I would not consider that a foot bed really, so, curious.
Long story short, I have a pretty good sized crease on the outside of one powerwrap that is not allowing the liner to fully wrap across my shin. Pretty sure this is what is causing me some undue shin pain. Any ideas on getting it out? I was thinking of putting the one boot back on the gun thing at the shop, but dropping a hot bag o rice on it and working it seems like it could work also. Anyone else have this problem, successfully solved it, and care to share your method?Quote:
Originally Posted by justcuz