Politically, I like Joseph Lieberman

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Originally Posted by alpinedad

So to clarify: "the problem," as you see it, is "the Islamic problem"? And Bush "went after it" by invading Iraq?

I just want to be sure I understand your construct.

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Originally Posted by rideit

Iraq, the formerly secular nation, that is NOW profoundly Islamic?
That one?

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Yep I guess the crux is that since Sadam isn't killing them off, raping them, and generally making their existance horrible, it is NOW a muslim problem since now they can't handle their freedom. But I understand what you are saying... Iraq wouldn't be the obvious target if Islam is the problem.

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Originally Posted by Crass3000

I know it's hard to think about sticking it out when things aren't going good but we really don't have much of an option. .

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We may now be obligated to sticking it out, but the LEAST we could do is excoriate and punish the myopic wankers who have cost 4000 mostly innocent lives...and by that I mean the poor kids who have lost their lives in this sham.
Impeachment and execution of the entire top white house brass (after conviction, of course) wouldn't be too severe, IMO.
They have done more to harm our country than Al Quaeda ever could have.
You will see.

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Originally Posted by rideit

We may now be obligated to sticking it out, but the LEAST we could do is excoriate and punish the myopic wankers who have cost 4000 mostly innocent lives...and by that I mean the poor kids who have lost their lives in this sham.
Impeachment and execution of the entire top white house brass (after conviction, of course) wouldn't be too severe, IMO.
They have done more to harm our country than Al Quaeda ever could have.
You will see.

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We all have our opinions. My list for execution would be different than yours.

Please share your list, and give valid reasons as to why.
Please.

Crass3000: am I really getting this right? You are advocating genocide?

Wow, always a top notch solution.

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Originally Posted by rideit

Please share your list, and give valid reasons as to why.
Please.

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I would start with anyone I would deem treasonous. For start I'm sure there are a few people at the Treason Times that like to give out classified information as to our plans for the war ahead.

Generally anybody, in government, who doesn't act in the best interest of the country by letting classified information leak. Or those in the government that decide their political careers are more important than the good of our country -- in that I would include those who publicly call out for time tables in time of war. NOTE that I don't think there is anything wrong with this type of discussion behind closed doors but letting our enemies know our plans is not helpful.

In general I think those in government that are caught in bribery scandals -- off with the head. We would have a lot more effective government if those in power (on both sides of the isle) had to worry about real life consequences. My feeling is that if you think you have the moral authority to lead the country then you better act in that manner -- otherwise off with the head.

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Originally Posted by The AD

Crass3000: am I really getting this right? You are advocating genocide?

Wow, always a top notch solution.

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Not really but I think it will come down to that if don't want to become a muslim nation. I know I sound like a real evil bad-guy but I'm not the one who wants to take nations over and run them like a theocracy. I for one would not like to live like that. If I had to kill every one of them I would if thats what it took.

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Originally Posted by Crass3000

My feeling is that if you think you have the moral authority to lead the country then you better act in that manner -- otherwise off with the head.

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In other words, you agree 100% with my list of those that should be legally executed.
Cripey, this administration embodies every one of your criticisms, down to the wire. Spooky, kinda.
If GW's arrogance and ignorance, and (actions based on both of those traits) aren't treasonous, then nothing is, really.

Nah, you don't sound so much like a simple real evil bad guy. Nazi is more like it. :nonono2:

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Originally Posted by Crass3000

I'm not the one who wants to take nations over and run them like a theocracy.

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And that differs from what has happened and is happening in Iraq how?

(And as an aside, if this country becomes a theocracy in my lifetime, I'm willing to bet it won't be an Islamic one.)

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Originally Posted by telepariah

Nah, you don't sound so much like a simple real evil bad guy. Nazi is more like it. :nonono2:

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Nazis hate for no reason. I don't see any problem with defending your culture and givernment. If you want to invade my country, take it over, and instill a new theocratic government your going to have a problem as long as I'm alive.

If you don't remember the jews were killed because they were jews. They were used as a scapegoat. I'm not sure how there is a parallel between the jews and muslims.

Actually, the Jews were killed because of a paranoid misperception that they were behind the financial cabal that 'controlled commerce', and there was a great deal of resentment towards their success in 19th and 20th century Europe.
They were denigrated as an inferior race, most usually by those who did not measure up in science, medicine, and business.
Hitler commonly spoke of the jews 'taking over the world', and how they 'must be stopped', using the 'final solution', which mirrors your views to a T.
Hitler was an avowed christian.
Ask any skinhead what the reasons are behind their hate...trust me, you will hear their 'reasons'.

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A minority of radical groups are terrorizing the planet...those people are Muslim; let's kill all Muslims.

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You don't see the parallel yet?

Here is a Jew who is a banker, he's taking your money; let's kill all Jews.

Have we established how old Crass is?

I'm guessing 14.

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Originally Posted by Crass3000

If you don't remember the jews were killed because they were jews. They were used as a scapegoat. I'm not sure how there is a parallel between the jews and muslims.

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Here's a quote from Joseph Goebbels' diary:

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Regarding the Jewish question, the Führer is determined to clear the table. He warned the Jews that if they were to cause another world war, it would lead to their own destruction. Those were not empty words. Now the world war has come. The destruction of the Jews must be its necessary consequence. We cannot be sentimental about it. It is not for us to feel sympathy for the Jews. We should have sympathy rather with our own German people. If the German people have to sacrifice 160,000 victims in yet another campaign in the east, then those responsible for this bloody conflict will have to pay for it with their lives.

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(found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_solution)

See any parallels yet?

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Originally Posted by alpinedad

And that differs from what has happened and is happening in Iraq how?

(And as an aside, if this country becomes a theocracy in my lifetime, I'm willing to bet it won't be an Islamic one.)

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In Iraq the idea was to install a government that was more friendly to the US. I guess there is somewhat of a parallel there but the idea was to bring liberty and justice to their society. To bring them rights that they did not have before.

Look at Europe, France for example... the muslim populations are getting so large they need to be catered to. Europe is going to be in trouble before we are. But I can't imagine your kids would enjoy being left to live in a strict Muslim society like the Taliban. Things take time to progress.

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Originally Posted by rideit

Actually, the Jews were killed because of a paranoid misperception that they were behind the financial cabal that 'controlled commerce', and there was a great deal of resentment towards their success in 19th and 20th century Europe.
They were denigrated as an inferior race, most usually by those who did not measure up in science, medicine, and business.
Hitler commonly spoke of the jews 'taking over the world', and how they 'must be stopped', using the 'final solution', which mirrors your views to a T.
Hitler was a avowed christian.
Ask any skinhead what the reasons are behind their hate...trust me, you will hear their 'reasons'.

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I know why modern day skinheads don't like jews. I have been called a jew by skinheads. In general they don't like rich people (not that I am rich). I am not sheltered. I've had my run-ins with plenty of scumbags. They like modern day blue collar working class people.

But your parallel here with the jews in Germany does not work here. The jews were not a threat to the German culture. The jews had no ideology that made them think the German way of life was corrupt and needed to be changed. The Jews did not think the Germans were infedels. In essence the Jews were victims. They did nothing to bring themselves into their situation except exist.

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Originally Posted by stupendous man

You don't see the parallel yet?

Here is a Jew who is a banker, he's taking your money; let's kill all Jews.

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No because a Jew who may be a banker earns his money in a totally legal way. The Jew has no ill intention within society except to exist peacefully within the society.

Muslims, on the other hand, believe that our way of life if corrupt. We live a life that is not consistent with their religious teachings. This is where you need to make the distinction with most christians. They may have the same feelings but they don't act on them. Most christians also have the guts to stand up and say that if a christian did something corrupt like suicide bombing, etc that they are a horrible person and don't belong in the faith. This is not true in the muslim faith. Sure there are those that don't believe that the violence is called for but it is much harder to stand up against it in the Muslim faith because of fear of retribution. By becoming a passive observer they become complacent and in the end must almost own the actions that they don't speak up against.

In any case the violence above is just a symptom of Muslim cultures. Extremist muslims have every intention on taking over the US and the world. They are patient. they know just as they are becoming large populations in Europe they will soon do the same in the US. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. In the end the slow progression ends in one way -- most of the world living like the Taliban. This may seem unreasonable but as the populations of Muslims become say 90% in a country, the muslims who would have spoken out before certainly aren't going to at that point. We have seen Mulsim violences and you certainly don't see much outcry.

I can't spell this all out for you. You either have to think in terms of today or the future. Most people have trouble thinking about the future because they live for the day.

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Originally Posted by Pope Benedict XVI

Have we established how old Crass is?

I'm guessing 14.

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Maybe take a look at my profile brainiac.

Sorry gotta go guys. Time for a project meeting.

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Originally Posted by Crass3000

You either have to think in terms of today or the future. .

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Bullshit.
In order to have a firm grasp of reality, one must consider the past, the present, AND the future.

For fuck's sake.

Pathetic world view.

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Originally Posted by Crass3000

At this point in politics the democrats are bottom-feeding off the bad news in Iraq. The "independant" media constantly reports one-sided reports on the war meant to sway the public away from all the good happening in Iraq. The liberal machine has everything to gain politically from the war in Iraq going south. Assuming things stay as they are the Democrats will surely take power which is what the politicians want -- I am not really talking about your everyday democrat but the politicians. The democratic politicians will be packing their bags if we could pull off a good result in Iraq. Thus their jobs depend on it. So thats why you here all the idiots telling our enemy when we want to pull out, how we are going to do it, etc. The Democrats are basically giving them our game plan which nobody who is serious about winning anything does -- much less war.

To sum it up... Politicians want power. War in Iraq keeps tanking == democrats gain more power. Not too hard to understand but it is hard to understand how they could be so unpatriotic as to give our game plan to the enemy. If you want to debate policy behind closed doors during a war thats good and should be done. But yelling out the game plan borders on treasonous.

Secondly... As far as Bush goes... History will see him as somebody who saw the problem and went after it. They will recognize that he made plenty of mistakes but give him credit for trying to confront a crisis that will ultimately get worse (much like social security that he tried to reform). People in the future are going to be pissed that the Islamic problem was not persued with more vigor and will see him as somebody who fought against public opinion to try to bring a better resolution for generations to come. People in the future will look at Dems and see that they hid their tail between their legs like they always do and didn't have the stomach to do what needed to be done.

To top it off the Dems still have the excuse they like to use that Bush created hate for America where it didn't exist. I think you may want to watch some videos from the past to see how we have been loved for the last 3 generations at least and welcomed with the tired "Death to America' slogan.

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Crass,

How did you end up in MN?!?!?! I'm usually on the right wing but wow. Even I have stopped trying to defend GWB and resigned myself to the "Anybody But Hillary" platform. Regardless, I kind of like you, though I caution you don't talk this way too loud around certain areas of Minneapolis. I'd suggest sticking around Eden Prairie or Minnetonka. I think the DFL caucus in EP takes up two booths at the McDonalds, maybe three. Should provide a safe haven.

I'm of the opinion that the only thing we can do in Iraq is to pull all our troops north and hang out with the Kurds. Let the folks in the south kill each other. Then make friends with whoevers left standing.

Good Luck,
Jay

Much to the country's dismay, since 1984, with the exception of the 12-15 months following 9/11, the political psychology in the USA has been fueled by partisanship, and nothing but partisanship. It really didn't matter what the republican's policy, the dems. would vigorously disagree with it. The opposite was/is also true. The republicans wanted to, and did, crucify Clinton for whatever (Whitewater, blow jobs, etc.). Of course, the dems. desired retaliation, and patiently waited for their chance to pounce, which they have done in spades. The left could not openly disagree with GWB's policies during the immediate wake of 9/11, because that would have been unpopular.
Now, the republican's are cooked. My fear is that history will show that the new left administration will do what they have always done...spend a lot of taxpayers $, take on a passive role in the middle east, and not get much accomplished. Crass has certainly said some, uhum, bizzare things regarding islam and muslims, but not everything he said is off base. Liberals, OTOH, already know everything about everything, and nothing can convince them otherwise. There is no use arguing with a true liberal; there is no winning.

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Originally Posted by schindlerpiste

since 1984, with the exception of the 12-15 months following 9/11, the political psychology in the USA has been fueled by partisanship, and nothing but partisanship

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I'm curious about why you're choosing 1984. What was the turning point you saw there?

I'd suggest that the more accurate view is that at least since the founding of the nation, partisanship has been the norm, and relative unanimity has been an exception -- an exception typically catalyzed by outside threat, e.g., Pearl Harbor, 9/11, and the like. But even then, World War II was not a nonpartisan era, and we had this civil war thing too.

I mistakenly wrote 1984, when I meant 1994. Sure, there has ALWAYS been partisanship, but, to me, it got really bad when the republicans won control of the House in 1994 after 40 years as minority. It was at that time when the political arena became worthy of disrespect. Too bad, the dems. have not taken the high road, and have followed in the republican's footsteps.

I agree. The combination of our 2-party system, too much dough in politics and 24-hour cable news leads to the lack of nuance and black/white arguments we see now.

Unfortunately, taking the high road does not seem feasible in this environment, that's why you see the dems using the same tactics as the GOP. Gotta show you're tough, because no one would pay any attention if you just show you're smart (i.e. Kucinich, Ron Paul).

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Politically, I like Joseph Lieberman

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Its more of a sexual thing for me.

I was reading about the Black Plague recently, and the jews were blamed for that and persecuted heavily in the 14th century. I'm guessing that still lingered when many Poles helped kill off the largest population of Jews in Europe during the war.