It's here...... Ortovox S1 Transceiver

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Originally Posted by Summit

OR the simpler, easier, bulkier way

2. Two triple-antenna arrays with singificant seperation and simpler DSP to compare the two computed bearings/signal strengths for "triangulation" of relative real space coordinates (I don't think this would be a fit in your pocket device)

Maybe an experienced bug hunter or an antenna engineer will chime in

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Im neither an antenna engy or a bug hunter, but I posted a thread a long long time ago about if there was any potential for using a probe pole as an antenna. Seems like you could just plug it into the beacon and use it as a scanning wand, maybe use it to help triangulate the beacon signal faster or something else. Again I know very very very little about antennas so this could just be a crackhead idea.

Just thought there might be a dual function for having a 3m conductive pole in your pack.

I had the idea of installing some sort of 'neutral' transmitters (satellites?) on the ground of very popular slide paths (Think Glory Bowl), that would be solar powered. Say a grid of transmitters of some form, in order to develop a three dimensional imaging sytem of precise locations.

Not practical or cheap, but certainly feasable.

rideit... interesting thought!

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Originally Posted by pechelman

Im neither an antenna engy or a bug hunter, but I posted a thread a long long time ago about if there was any potential for using a probe pole as an antenna. Seems like you could just plug it into the beacon and use it as a scanning wand, maybe use it to help triangulate the beacon signal faster or something else. Again I know very very very little about antennas so this could just be a crackhead idea.

Just thought there might be a dual function for having a 3m conductive pole in your pack.

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i suddenly want to modify my backup transceiver (ortovox f1) to add an extra antenna connector to try this :-p

i also have a visiovox (basically just an analog needle reader) that would plug into it for extra sensitivity

heh... i think if you end up with an extreme range 200m or 300m you will have to be very experienced at analog search techniques and at cutting off the corners of a flux search

you can plug an external extenna (normally used in choppers) into the Baryvox VS2000 I believe...

I see a couple of problems with the satellites.

1) How do you incorporate them into a multiple burial?
2) What happens in the case of a secondary slide?

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Originally Posted by Arty50

1) How do you incorporate them into a multiple burial?

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These units would read and process mutliple signals just like beacons and would transmit that information.

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2) What happens in the case of a secondary slide?

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There is a likelyhood that they would be rendered useless by being redeposited in useless positions/orientations (and if they are under snow they will have decreased range and if they lose GPS fix they will be useless)

Sorry to play devil's advocate here:

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Originally Posted by Summit

These units would read and process mutliple signals just like beacons and would transmit that information.

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That's a lot of information to process. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the beacons that read and list multiples do so by recognizing the individual wavelenghts of the the beacons that are buried. So the satellites will have to not only perform this function but also synchronize that information with each other and the main beacon, otherwise you will have serious ghosting issues. In addition they'll have to calculate the distance to the main beacon, which is moving, and correct for the amount of time it takes to communicate with that moving object so that everything will sync up properly.

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There is a likelyhood that they would be rendered useless by being redeposited in useless positions/orientations (and if they are under snow they will have decreased range and if they lose GPS fix they will be useless)

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Even worse, what if they now serve to throw off the signals to the actual bodies.

Hey, I just play an engineer on the internet. I'm sure there's a way to work through these issues, and people much smarter than me work on complicated stuff like this all the time. But the development cost of this would be enormous, and thus the beacon would be hugely expensive also. All so you could follow an imaginary straight line as opposed to a naturally curved one.

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Originally Posted by Arty50

That's a lot of information to process. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the beacons that read and list multiples do so by recognizing the individual wavelenghts of the the beacons that are buried. So the satellites will have to not only perform this function but also synchronize that information with each other and the main beacon, otherwise you will have serious ghosting issues. In addition they'll have to calculate the distance to the main beacon, which is moving, and correct for the amount of time it takes to communicate with that moving object so that everything will sync up properly.
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Even worse, what if [satellites] now serve to throw off the signals to the actual bodies.

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Satellites are just another Yossarian beacon but instead of a display for the user, they compress the information into a packet which they burst on an alternate frequency (one chosen not to interfere with 457 reception). (Barryvox Pulse beacons network using an alternate frequency)

As I said, a Yossarian beacon/satellite system requires GPS in all beacons/satellites. If a satellite does not have a GPS fix it is useless. If the user's beacon doesn't have a GPS fix, the whole satellite system is useles. A satellite has a fix, it encodes its coordinates into the data burst (that includes bearing/signal strengths (and whatever else) for each beacon) to the user's Yossarian beacon. These are major vulnerabilities to the system, but if all devices get their GPS fix, it isn't so hard after that.

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Hey, I just play an engineer on the internet. I'm sure there's a way to work through these issues, and people much smarter than me work on complicated stuff like this all the time. But the development cost of this would be enormous, and thus the beacon would be hugely expensive also. All so you could follow an imaginary straight line as opposed to a naturally curved one.

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(me too;))
I agree 100%! I think my idea for the advanced DPS beacon with INS (and/or GPS) is a much more reliable and possibly cheaper solution. And my idea for a larger multiantenna array beacon would be much cheaper.

I think only the latter will likely end up being produced at some point and only for Ski Patrol/Helicopter/SAR use.

Boy, talk about subject thread drift........

Any way, interesting ideas guys. Now who has 5 or 6 million dollars to develope it?

Thanks for the info Hacksaw,

I just saw the S1 in the Au vieux Campeur shop in Sallanches (France) the other day. They had it discounted heavily and were not very enthusiastic about selling them compared to some of the other transceivers.

I didn't have time to try it but would would like to know if the analog signal kicks in at a greater range than the digital signal and future comparisons with the other available beacons would be much appreciated.

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Originally Posted by mtcham

I didn't have time to try it but would would like to know if the analog signal kicks in at a greater range than the digital signal and future comparisons with the other available beacons would be much appreciated.

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I didn't think about trying that compairison out. I'll try to test that out later this week.

Cheers,
Halsted

BUMP.

Great review Halsted.

Sounds interesting. I'll be trying one soon.

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

BUMP.

Great review Halsted.

Sounds interesting. I'll be trying one soon.

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I am about to call Ortovox regarding availability. I will post in my tech talk thread shortly.

I've had an S1 for about 3 months and tested it against Trackers quite a bit.

There is nothing in Halsted's excellent review I would disagree with but I would add a couple of things..

1. The multiple burial capabilities of the S1 are amazing and the flagging feature works very well. Compared to a Tracker -- there is no comparison - the Tracker is difficult to use in a multi- burial situation and takes considerable interpretation and experience. The S1 is very fast.

2. In a single burial , the Tracker is faster for me, and very much faster for inexperienced users. The S1 takes a bit longer to detect the signal and you lose some time when you "outrun" the S1 - you have to stop and wait. It's not a large amount of time difference but the Tracker is still faster.

3. There are some quirky things to get used to on the S1. Every so often during a search you get information that doesn't make sense. The signal jumps around. Once you've used it for a while it becomes pretty obvious when this is happening and you just go back through the menu and it corrects itself. I wouldn't want to be doing that in a real search , though.

4. I have the "first edition" S1. Some of the issues in point 3 may relate to this. Ortovox are offering a free upgrade on the original S1. The second edition has a new on/off switch, some change in the button configuration and new software. I would say that buyers should ensure that they are getting the most recent model.

Overall I really like the S1 but I would had liked Ortovox to have ironed out some minor glitches before releasing it. Everyone who waited for mark II did the right thing.

I haven't had the time to read the whole thread, so sorry if this has been discussed. But as far as locating an object at an x,y,z coordinate, you need to solve for more than just the three variables. You must incorporate a fourth equation, gps uses time, or some sort of signal strength (which would basically be based on time I presume).

You might want to go back and read the whole thread....

Not sure how I missed this thread originally, but thanks for the great review. Plus now I don't need to read the manual on my S1 when it comes, because I know everything I need to know just from reading this post. Heck, if its that easy, I bet I don't even need to practice with it, I'll have no problem finding all the victims when I ski cut above them.

Seriously though, thanks for the excellent review. Can't wait to get mine soon.

Thanks for the review Hacksaw.
This morning, I ordered my new S1 from Backcountry.com!
Pricey, but what the heck!

if i had $500 i would get an S1 but i dont im a poor teenager and scored a BCA Tracker at rei %30 off and am excited to have it this season. i need to take an avalanche class though any recomendations? i live in the seattle area so nothing outside of a 50 mile radius please. ive checked REI.com but its hit or miss and i think i already missed their class for the year. any advice would be appreciated.

thanks

Here's the latest review of the latest version of the S1:
http://www.tetonat.com/?p=346
I wish someone though would write up a compare/contrast of the S1 vs. the Pulse, since they have very similar functionality, but drastically different user interfaces. (I'll be able to write up such a review once my S1 arrives, but eight months have now passed since I placed my order....)
I mean, comparing the S1 to the Tracker, etc. is kind of pointless, since functions like flagging/marking/masking already exist on the DSP, and even more extensively so on the Pulse, so if the S1 is going to be a real breakthrough (and also justify its breakthrough price), I'd like to hear it compares to or even improves upon the Pulse.

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Originally Posted by born2snowboard99

if i had $500 i would get an S1 but i dont im a poor teenager and scored a BCA Tracker at rei %30 off and am excited to have it this season. i need to take an avalanche class though any recomendations? i live in the seattle area so nothing outside of a 50 mile radius please. ive checked REI.com but its hit or miss and i think i already missed their class for the year. any advice would be appreciated.

thanks

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You oughta do the search thing. But given the topic, the two standard an well regarded options around here are Gary Brill and Mountain Madness.

http://www.geocities.com/garyabrill/avalanche.html (does not seem to have been updated for this year yet)

and

http://www.mountainmadness.com/schools/schl_nw4.cfm