Sounds like an interesting device.Quote:
Originally Posted by jtwassoc
email sent.
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Sounds like an interesting device.Quote:
Originally Posted by jtwassoc
email sent.
Update for anyone waiting on a flotation device.
OK, you knew this was coming......we will be sending out some legal paperwork for you to sign that absolves us of any liability if you are hurt or killed in an avalanche while testing the avalanche flotation device. Please read it carefully (just one page), sign it and get it back to us.
Also, here are your operating procedures....................
WARI Avalanche Flotation Device operating procedures:
Affix the avalanche flotation device around your waist with the rip-cord inflation lanyard within easy reach of your hand. Practice reaching for the rip-cord without actually pulling the rip-cord. Familiarize yourself with the location of the rip-cord, and avoid covering the rip-cord with your jacket or any other piece of clothing or gear.
Once in an avalanche prone area remind yourself to pull the rip-cord if you find yourself in an avalanche. Although this may seem obvious, on several occasions in the past users of avalanche flotation devices have failed to pull the rip-cord when threatened by an avalanche simply because they forgot to use the device. When starting your ski or snowboard run down the mountain, or any traverse across an avalanche path on foot or on a snowmobile or snowmachine, first remind yourself to pull the rip-cord if you find yourself in an avalanche.
When you pull the rip-cord you are opening the valve on a bottle of compressed gas inside the device. This gas will instantly fill a red, nylon lifting bag. The lift bag is large enough to float you to the surface of the moving avalanche, but also small enough to allow you to try to continue to ski or snowboard or drive your machine out of the avalanche.
Once inside the avalanche, the lift bag will begin to pull the user to the surface of the moving avalanche through the scientific process known as inverse grading, where larger and lighter objects seek the surface of a turbulent flow of snow. Although the device will bring the user to the surface of the stopped avalanche, the device will not put the user on top of the snow and the user will most likely remain partially buried by the avalanche. This is why traveling with a partner is critical in an avalanche prone area. Even when using a WARI avalanche flotation device the user may need assistance to escape from the stopped avalanche. In most cases all or a large part of the red, nylon lift bag will be visible above the snow, and this is what a partner should look for after the avalanche has stopped. In dozens of tests using lift bags in avalanches the red lift bag was entirely exposed on the surface, or had at least 10 to 15% of the surface area visible. In most cases the arm or hand of the 190 pound crash test dummy was exposed above the snow of the stopped avalanche. The lift bags are only designed for class 2 avalanches, and fail by tearing in any class 3 avalanches. Keep in mind that a class 3 avalanche can completely destroy a home.
JTW Associates and WARI Avalanche Research Institute are working together in the development of the WARI avalanche flotation device. JTW Associates of Lakeville, Minnesota is a manufacturer of water rescue devices for police, fire and rescue organizations. The WARI Avalanche Research Institute of Olympic Valley, California is dedicated to the study and prevention of avalanche deaths.
Pretty cool stuff, good luck with it.
iskibc shoots, he scores!
Thanks for the input and the update. Looking forward to testing your product, and hopefully never having to deploy it.
I realize this device may be at least a season or two away from production but do you have any idea of a rough estimate of MSRP?
Email sent...
Ski b/c with a few buddies out here in tahoe, between the three of us, one (or more) would get used over 150 days thsi year... pm me if interested...
Well Wanghoeby,
We think that the major reason you do not see too many avalanche flotation systems in use is cost. The devices currently available are very expensive, yet everyone in the backcountry seems to have an avalanche beacon. We are trying our best to manufacture a device that would cost about the same as an avalanche beacon.
First, however, we need to see if it is even a good idea. Early testing over the past 5 years has shown us that the device will bring a 190 pound crash test dummy to the surface of a class 2 avalanche, but there is obviously a HUGE difference between a hard plastic crash test dummy and a human being. That is why we have entered into this critical second phase of testing where we are asking backcountry skiers, snowboarders, snowshoers, and snowmachine and snowmobile riders to try the device under actual mountainous travel conditions. Of course we are not hoping that someone would get caught in an avalanche, but instead we are wondering how the device feels when you where it, what the device is like to carry around all day, how the device feels during rest periods, does the placement of the device get in the way of your activity, questions like this. On the last run of the season we are going to ask everyone to pull the rip-cord and attempt to ski, board or sled for a short distance to see how people react to pulling the rip-cord, and how much the inflated device affected their activity. If while testing someone does find themselves in an avalanche we would be terribly interested in the results, but we don't wish this on anyone.
If you haven't already, please send us your name and mailing address so we can mail out your info packet and legal waiver.
Also, your name and any other information you give us will be kept strictly confidential.
Thanks to everyone who sent in their backcountry bios. We have filled out the roster for the 50 devices with people in some great mountainous terrain. If you didn't hear from us about getting one of the 50 devices, don't give up yet. We still need mailing addresses and a signed legal waiver from everyone who wants a device, and usually one or two people out of 50 won't be able to get it done, so long story short there might be a device or two still available as time goes by.
Here is what we are asking everyone who has submitted a request for an avalanche flotation device to do:
1. Send us your mailing address so we can send you an info packet and a legal disclaimer.
2. Sign and mail us back the waiver.
3. Have a recognizable UPS address (they don't deliver to P.O. Boxes as an example) and be able to accept and sign for the device.
4. Wear the device as much as you can in mountainous terrain and observe the devices effect on your activity.
5. Inflate the device on your last descent of the season and observe the inflated devices effect on your activity.
6. Deflate the device and ship the device (by UPS) back to us at JTW Associates in Minnesota where we will examine it and report back to you.
7. Fill out a brief and confidential questionnaire and mail it back to us.
Thanks again everyone.
8. Don't pull the ripcord while riding on a chairlift with no safety bar.
good point iceman, we'll add that to the operating instructions.........
Update for anyone waiting for an avalanche flotation device:
The venturi valves are in and the assembly of the devices has begun. Who knew how small a UPS box thirty thousand dollars worth of parts could fit in, there should be a law, anyway, the valves look GREAT and we are in production mode.
Several people have yet to give us their mailing address for both mailing you legal documents to sign, and for shipping you the device via UPS. UPS does not deliver to Post Office Boxes so we need a street address from everyone, thanks.
Also, although there are airline security provisions in place for carrying an inflatable avalanche flotation device with you on a plane, you can forget about making your flight. Right now these devices are fairly new to the airlines and MANY PEOPLE HAVE MISSED THEIR FLIGHTS trying to fly with these devices. Bottom line, you need to be within driving range of the mountains to participate in this study. Sorry to anyone who this may affect, but until these devices are commonplace it will be near impossible to fly with them........
Very cool idea, especially the part about cost being near that of a beacon. I hope you'll keep us updated through the forum as much as possible.
Any chance of an extra canister for a test inflation on the first as well as the last day? I realize that would add $$ and complexity (canister replacement by users) to the testing program; thought I'd check anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by jtwassoc
We have kicked around the idea of sending out a spare cylinder with each device so that people could inflate the thing prior to entering the wilderness.
The upside to doing this is that people could get a feel for the device and know what it looks like and how it inflates so that they would not be seeing this for the first time inside an avalanche. On the other hand it’s simply a fast inflating balloon the size of a large pillow, and maybe you don’t need to see it before an emergency. And pulling the rip-cord is pretty simple, so it’s not something that you would necessarily need to practice. Once you pull the rip-cord “your work here is finished” as they say.
The downside to sending out an extra cylinder is that you would have to deflate the lift bag and repack the entire thing, which is easier said than done. The device is packed pretty tight, so getting everything back in its place will be difficult.
We know that the European manufacturers of avalanche lift bag systems are sending out extra cylinders and encouraging users to inflate their devices periodically, but the cost of this method is sizable, and of course the consumer ends up paying for it. We are trying to develop something with less annual maintenance costs.
It's an interesting conundrum: as a possible user I know that I would feel MUCH more confident that the device will work when needed (anti-jinx!) if I had tried it at least once before.Quote:
Originally Posted by jtwassoc
On the other hand, it makes sense that it must be professionally packaged at the factory before use.
It would be hard for me to trust that something I have been carrying around for years and never seen deploy will actually work in that split second it is needed.
This is more of a comment on my psychology than on the merits of your device...
Edited to say that I guess I do trust airbags in my car to work after years of inaction, so maybe this is the same. But I just realized that I never thought about the airbags in my car before: it's not like I have to remember to bring the airbag with me every time I drive somewhere...
The problem with an inflation device is making sure that the compressed gas hasn’t leaked out. This isn’t a problem with sealed CO2 bottles as they are welded shut. That was one of the great things about using CO2, it was readily available at a “reasonable” price in a sealed bottle. Not so compressed air or nitrogen. Why compressed air instead of CO2? Eventually we want to vent the compressed air into the air cavity created by the lift bag and the user (by using your hands to create an air pocket as the avalanche slows). Now we are compressing our own air here in the lab to 3000 pounds per square inch. The CO2 bottles were at 800 PSI. The compressed CO2 was in liquid form and the compressed air we are using now is in gaseous form. Now we are relying on a gasket and a big metal cylinder head to contain the gas. Gaskets rot out eventually and the gas escapes. A possible solution might be a gas leak indicator like you find on fire extinguishers.
Unlike the European flotation systems, we are building a one use device. We figure you survive an avalanche with the device it’s time to retire that device. The stress put on a nylon lift bag by a large slide is extreme, and in our opinion inflated lift bags should only be used in one avalanche only. Even the stress put on the nylon welds by the expanding gas can be impressive, and continued inflation of a lift bag worries us.
Here are some pics:
Thirty thousand dollars worth of parts.....
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...7&d=1166198655
Venturi valve welded to nylon lift bag.......
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...8&d=1166198669
Entire nylon lift bag. The bag is 100 liters or 3.5 cubic feet in size....
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...9&d=1166198679
Huh, hadn't thought of the stress per usage - makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by jtwassoc
I applaud you for using air instead of CO2. I always wondered what would happen if someone pierced a european system bag full of 5L of CO2 with a tree, rock, ski, pole, (or rescuer probe) what would happen if the bag leaked. I'd assume that asphyxia would occur very quickly with the CO2 displacing O2 in the local snowpack for the victim until the rescuer could dig them out.
Three questions...
QUESTION 1. Have you considered using nitrox fills instead of air? 3000psi fills can be had cheaply from your local SCUBA shop. All you need is an adaptor. EAN50 would be nice (50%O2).
Since you intend to bleed the bag off, EAN would be beneficial to the victim to have a gas pocket of enriched O2 air versus normal air for MANY reasons. Higher ambient %O2 means:
1. less hypothermia - higher FiO2 means higher SaO2% especially at altitude: slower respiratory rate which means slower core cooling of the victim ( http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/96/4/1365 )
2. less stress - on an injured victim, especially at altitude (too many physiological reasons to list)
3. longer breathing time - it would take a much longer time for expired CO2 to cause displacement asphyxia than with normal air.
(great marketing point too ;))
QUESTION 2: CF reinforced cylinders Have you considered using small CF cylinders for gas storage? They seem to be available for paint ball players in small cylinders that are rated to 5000psi. Using those would surely decrease system weight and size?
QUESTION 3: Psychology of replacable cartriges Going off of Aleks points... don't you think that the ability to pull a ripcord and restore the system for $75 with a new cannister makes people more likely to pull the cord without hesitation than if it will cost $300-$400 to replace the entire system?
EDIT: On further inspection, replacement cannisters cost $150 for the european system.
We are looking at all gases, including mixes such as the ones you mention being common in SCUBA shops. Right now we are going with compressed air as we fill it right here in the lab (see pic below). Every move we make is cost sensitive as we feel if we get over the cost of a beacon people will not use it. We are still playing around with the inflation gas, and a mix is not out of the question.
As far as pulling the rip-cord goes, it would be more than $75 to replace the cylinder and the valve parts, but not too much more. The whole issue of providing someone with a zero maintenance one time use only device, as opposed to a user rechargeable multi-use system is under a lot of discussion here in the lab. The more serious mountain guide types in our group are all techie gear-heads and love to buy the finest equipment and tear it apart to see how it works. They all want to produce a rechargeable system. But the less intense back country people in our group want the zero maintenance one shot device. Maybe the answer is a guide model that is rechargeable and a weekend warrior model that is not.
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...4&d=1166217287
I'm stoked you guys are working with price in mind.
It would be nice to see this technology become commonplace in this country.
Here's some pics of one of the first prototypes from a few months back. The new devices will be a tad smaller, maybe a bigger rip cord as well...
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...1&d=1166888810
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...2&d=1166888820
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...3&d=1166888830
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...4&d=1166888839
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...5&d=1166888847
A couple things, first off, we are looking for a beefier waist cord. One that won't tighten up and maybe cut you in half in a giant slide. Last year a similar "harness" was used in a major league class three avalanche that slid most of a mile, and when the test dummy became stuck against a large pine tree the avalanche put so much stress on the tether that it completely sliced through the 400 deneir nylon lift bag. Extreme forces are at work in an avalanche so we don't want the attachment point for the lift bag to the user to be dangerous in any way.
Also, if you have emailed us looking to get on the prototype testing list and have not received a reply, don't give up. We are waiting to see how many people submit their paperwork, and not everyone has done this so there may be openings. We will contact everyone who has emailed us one way or the other. Thanks for your patience........
Good stuff. I ride 50+days in the BC every year and blah blah blah.
Whatever you come up with, I hope it doesn't cost $800 like the one at our shop.
This is awesome to read about. Do you have any videos from the tests with the dummy? I'd like to see this thing in action!
I'm a little skeptical as I don't see any open beers sitting around your shop.
The hammer sitting next to $30,000 venturi valves is reassuring though: "Dang it, looks like this one needs some 'adjustment', I'll 'fix it', I'm mechanical.";)
In all seriousness though, your product is impressively small and looks pretty light weight. I've been following your thread in the slide zone and the results are very promising. Those slides you guys created are very impressive, even if many of them were too big for your purposes.:eek:
I'm prolly out for most of the season myself, otherwise you'd have heard from me sooner. I think a rechargeable version might be nice for pros. I know on my patrol, you could count on taking a couple of rides per year, hopefully small. But you wouldn't want to be discouraged from pulling the ripcord. Even if the device had to be sent back for repacking, inspection, etc.
I see what you mean about the waist belt too. I think integrating a climbing harness with a more positive buckle system could be an idea.
Thanks for all your hard work, keep it up.:yourock:
edit: It would be cool to see some of the component parts before packing, like how small your bottle is.