What would get you to buy/use an ABS pack? Poll

i know it doesn't make any sense, but many folks who are heavy BC users (i.e., the ones who need it most) are pretty "close" with their money. since the avalung came out, i've been asking people why they don't have one...and it's money 99% of the time. folks who aren't buying season passes due to money are (from my informal polls over the years) just not willing to shell out the additional $$, even though it could mean their life.

it's kind of like buying insurance...you don't appreciate it until you actually have to use it.

and many of these same folks are uninsured.

i DO foresee the heli crowd (+ guides, patrolmen, etc.) using the packs (just like they're the main groups using avalungs) and the clients as being potential users.

me? i think it's a great idea. i'd still be worried about hazards in the avy zone (e.g., trees, cliffs).

TH: an extra 3.5 pounds on the back is even less than the difference b/w dynafits + fritschis on de feet. :)

Regarding the poll...

I'd like to say, for me, it's the added cost that I can't swing, but while cost is *part* of it, it's really not the main reason.

I think that I am very comfortable with all the gear I use, and I've selected it carefully over the years. If it were a device I could add to existing gear, then I'd be more likely to go for it...but it means having to replace something I'm very comfortable with and have modified (my pack).

Perhaps that is irrational, but it's honest.

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Originally Posted by upallnight

TH: an extra 3.5 pounds on the back is even less than the difference b/w dynafits + fritschis on de feet. :)

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Aint that the truth! Skinned fritschis a few times, freaking tanks. UAN, do those folks you mention who won't buy an avalung even have a beacon? They seem like a perfect complement.
Already got the ABS pack. Cheap life insurance :)

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Originally Posted by Toby

Another thing is the lack of an effective ski-harness system for bootpacking.

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I'd most likely be wanting a 30L pack. In that category, this:
http://www.bergsport-welt.de/felix/escape30.JPG
looks woefully inadequate for carrying skis.

This:
http://www.bergsport-welt.de/felix/plus30.JPG
might be marginally better (at least more robust or secure) but I'd have to look at it. I could imagine carrying skis snowboard-style next to each other under those loops, bases flat against the pack. But it's a front-loader, so if the skis were strapped on for bootpacking a ridge, you can't access the pack's compartment. Functionally though, I guess this'd be the one I'd be considering.

Found something else interesting on the site I borrowed those images from. I thought these were vapourware? That site seems to be offering them for sale.

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Originally Posted by corn dog

Aint that the truth! Skinned fritschis a few times, freaking tanks. UAN, do those folks you mention who won't buy an avalung even have a beacon? They seem like a perfect complement.

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hey corn dog--
i know it sounds weird that folks wouldn't spend $100 to potentially save their own life, but an avalung just isn't a "sexy" product, and when you're talking to folks that view that as either another pair of skis, $ toward a season pass, gas $, etc., it just doesn't get the attention.

also, people (just about everyone, it seems) overestimate their abilities to avoid getting caught in an avy and find someone who has been buried. they tend to avoid thinking about the trauma that one could suffer being caught in a slide.

for those reasons, people view it as "optional", not mandatory, and those folks prioritize it lower on the scale.

not saying it's right or makes any sense, but even some otherwise intelligent folks go about the decision process that way and arrive at an irrational point through a series of smaller, rational steps.

Wow, those are interesting.....but agree they look to have crappy functionality.

I didnt answer the poll, because I had never heard of them. There is my honest answer.

In Tahoe we all get pretty lax, which is not good but.....I would get one out here. If I moved back to Colorado, I could see getting some kind of ABS/Avalung combo.

On a side note about the functional characteristics of the ABS pack:

I like the fact that it has food pouches on the waistbelt. I hate taking my pack off to get food. I hate stopping at all for that matter, and food pockets on the waist belt allow you to keep moving. Speed is safety.

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Originally Posted by Huckwheat

Wow, those are interesting.....but agree they look to have crappy functionality.

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Crappy funktionality meaning you can´t notice the difference to a normal backpack,and the 30L fitting trekkers,skins,camelback,downjacket,some food,tools and crampons in it?

I voted for cost. That and the fact that I haven't seen one that I like as a pack. Actually, I'd say functionality is the #1 reason I don't already have one because I seem to have absolutely no problem blowing $$ on gear.

I support the technology of the ABS pack and believe it would be effective. Like anything new/unique to a niche market I am still wondering about competitors putting superior or equivalent products to the market cheaper so cost is the factor. 400 dollars sounds like a good a price point to me. I don't care about the weight too much personaly but a couple pounds off would definately sweeten the deal.

What MD9 said as well as the functionality issues. I'd find a way to come up with the cash if I thought it was right for me. Lets hope the next gen is even better.

I saw quite a few of these in Europe last time I was there.

I'm not sure how much my life is worth, but I think it may be a bit shy of retail on those puppies. Let me ask a question here: if the technology of the future eliminates all risk in the backcountry, would it be as rewarding?
I'll buy one when they drop those silly waterwings and start doing this:

I am very new to touring and this product intrigues’ me.

I want to see what the various packs look like with a Shovel Handle, probe and skis hanging off of it.

How is the Airbag deployed? (Nevermind) Ripcord like deployment.

Also We will know its a good Idea when Heli Skiing operations fork over the money to put these on all guests.

There does seem to also be an issue with travel, maybe Ski/ Mountaineering shops could start renting these things. I would love to show-up in say Utah and be able to rent an (B/C) setup. ABS Day pack, Beacon, shovel, probe. Plunk down a deposit to take the stuff out, get deposit back if returned in same condition as taken. If you are caught in an avy and use the canister? Pay later?

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Originally Posted by MTT

How is the Airbag deployed? (Nevermind) Ripcord like deployment.

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You have to be able to pull one or two triggers before you are pummeled.


------------Xpost from other ABS thread

I pack my skis about 1/4 to 1/3 of my days. You can't always skin and it doesn't always make sense to skin.

Bottomline: If you are charging $1200 for a pack system ($900 for just the pack), why the FUCK isn't it at least as functional as a <$100 pack for its PRIMARY PURPOSE: BEING A SKI PACK? Is that too much to ask???

I see the "Econopack" version for $650 plus the $250 for the cannisters/triggers. Could that possibly be LESS functional than the not so functional $900+$250 Escape shown above?

They are asking you to pay 10X as much for something 3X as heavy that doesn't work as well as a ski pack. All they have done is add a cannister and inflating plastic bags + reinforced straps. It really seems like poor design work.

A little gas cannister and some bags really don't explain $1000 of price increase. For that price they should use composite cannisters to save weight (1/2 the weight of aluminum, 1/3 the weight of steel)!

Charge $500 for the ENTIRE ABS pack SYSTEM, make it at least as functional as a Dakine or preferably an Osprey, make an avalung attatch to it, and I'll buy it and take it out on many days that aren't "low" days even though it weights 8 lbs.

After cutting the system price, offer a higher priced lighter composite cylinder option that costs another $125.

Another observation I have made about backcountry equipment.

Even Dakine seems to assume that you know all out packing for the B/C.
There is no book that I have found that shows me the Set-up JONG stuff about strapping skis and other gear to a pack. Its all a (You gotta know someone stuff) For instnce where do you store Crampons when not inuse?

It hasn't been on my list of "things I need to buy" and here's why:

a) well, I haven't done any backcountry stuff yet, but I'm planning on it
b) I'm behind the times - I get most of my bc info here, and the consensus has not yet been that they're worth it and everyone going bc should get one.

The product isn't perfect now, but it will evolve. Remember the old Skadi beacons? I do.

I wonder if they could use an automobile airbag propellant, or something like that in the future?

I currently use the beacon/shovel/probe/avalungII combo setup. I wont currently buy an ABS for 2 reasons.

1.) I am poor right now and the people I go with are very good with their beacon/shovel/probe setups, and actually practice with them on a regular basis (something I KN0W that many people with beacons, ESPECIALLY digital beacons dont do much of). Therefore, I am confident that they can find me in an avalanche. We always practice 1 at a time so that there should be a group at the top to do a search for me....Assuming I get my avalung in my mouth, that will increase my chances significantly if its a deep burial(which is likely since I snowboard and my bindings wont release and the board will drag me down). Assuming I dont get it in my mouth, I have seen their scores in recovery time in timed multi beacon courses and am comfortable with their results.

2.) I am waiting for the technology to improve and become a bit more practical. In all of the tests I have seen of the ABS systems, the packs kind of suck (not a HUGE deal) but at the same time, they are all run their tests with skiers, NOT snowboarders. The release of the bindings on a ski is one of the big factors (from what I understand) that allows the ABS's surface area to pull you up top. With a snowboard, I dont get that release system, and am not confident that it would do much at all to pull me up on top. Now there are some ABS systems that have been proven to even pull a snowmobile uptop (I think there was a thread on it and in the Avy forum), however these are much larger than the systems sold for skiing. Until they can make something that I know will actually bring me up to the surface with a snowboard, I cant see forking out the cash for one when I am familiar and comfortable with my current system. Once technology improves, I am 100% of the way there and will purchase one.

Either way, with or without one, I think that in the case of trauma you are fucked. I remember watching some of those test videos on the ABS systems and anything other than a small/medium sized avalanche fucked up the test dummies...if it was a real person, they would have been dead from trauma.

It all comes down to actually get some training (which I finally did) and being careful. However, as it has been stated before, everyone will fuck up. The snow doesnt care if you are an expert at snow conditions or not. If you are going to spend alot of time in the backcountry, why play the odds.

too expensive

but I probably can't really justify that answer considering how much money I have wasted on useless bullshit over the years

not too heavy

considering the useless bullshit I have hauled around the mountains over the years

I posted a review of the Dynafit ABS 30l pack system some time ago. I'll try to find it and post it again if there's interest.

I didn't like the weight. Not the added weight - I could care less about 3 pounds extra but due to the side placement of the weight.

The pack harness and straps weren't comfortable. The one I used had leg loops - couldn't stand the leg loop systems but apparently they were necessary.

The pack I used had the food pouch pockets in the hip - belt also TH. They were very difficult to access in the field when wearing the pack.

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

I hate stopping at all for that matter,.

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Get the freak outta here! This is a shocker to me. :p

If that pack had leg loops that would be my doom.

In all seriousness I would have to agree with UAN regarding the gear I've selected to use along with the partners I select to ski with. It's a tough call when you really think about the possible ramifications of one poor decision or spell of bad luck in the BC.

Contemplating but not likely to pull the trigger any time soon.

Another interesting thread for those that read German. It's mostly an excerpt from a newspaper article written by a guy who was buried 75cm under while wearing an ABS pack. He attributed his survival to his beacon (and the skill of his partners in finding him) and ABS together. He was unconscious when excavated. Without the ABS he thinks he would've been buried deeper. It's kind of confusing - he might not've been completely buried at the end of the slide but at any rate a second slide completely buried him. He attributes his burial to his non-releasing Dynafit TLTs (they were ascending at the time). In fact the focus of the whole article is that AT bindings should release while in climbing mode.

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

I wonder if they could use an automobile airbag propellant, or something like that in the future?

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I don't think that would make it any cheaper though -- it's my understanding that airbags inflator modules are quite expensive.

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Originally Posted by DerJaeger

I don't think that would make it any cheaper though -- it's my understanding that airbags inflator modules are quite expensive.

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and i think i read somewhere that they recommend you blow one as a test. :nonono2:


don't know if this has been addressed but are these legal to take on a flight? on a heliski flight? seems i've also read where heli outfits don't allow them due to flying safety concerns.